As I've mentioned before, I am not a man of
faith.
I require evidence, before I can take something
seriously. Maybe that's a weakness...
Here's something I've thought of, though. I would
REALLY like to believe the ideas expressed on this
site reflect universal truth (whatever that is.)
To do that, though... I would have to learn to
go out of body. (NOT one of my inborn talents,
BTW.)
But if I COULD do it... I'd see if it was possible to
meet with one of the other posters here astrally.
Both of us would then record what we discussed
after coming "awake" and comparing notes.
(Or even exchanging names...)
If the information corresponded... then that would
go a long way toward proving this stuff for me.
Has anybody here ever done this experiment?
And what results were there?
Any comments welcome...

I posted yesterday my first experience.  I think using a CD might be your best bet for immediate results of an OOBE.  I find myself having trouble relaxing enough, and the CD helps me concentrate, and of course the CD produces waves in order to help you be successful in having an OOBE.  Before meeting up with someone you should practice until you know you can succeed in an OOBE when you want.  I am not at the point where I can just say I will have one that night and be successful at it.  I hope this makes sense.

-MandyLynn

I would have to learn to
go out of body. (NOT one of my inborn talents,
BTW.)
It is your in-born talent , everyone is born ready. It is up to you to seek the truth and find they way.

Brendan,

I've had a few OBEs and retrieval experiences, but  I reluctantly came to realize over time that they were just particularly vivid lucid dreams.  You might be interested in my post entitled "OBE and Phasing Evidence for an Afterlife" currently on page 6 of this site.  There I discuss both the problems and the scienfific research on OBEs. 

I created that post before I read David Fontana's excellent chapter on OBEs in his magisterial book, "Is There an Afterlife: A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence."  You would find several of his chapters relevant to the issues that engage you.  Also, our moderator, Bruce Moen, discusses his attempts at partnered exploration in his book, "A Voyage to Curiosity's Father."

Don

Brendan,

I've experienced or encountered just about every other aspect of the Christian paranormal realm, except a genuine OBE.  But I'm unwilling to generalize from my own bogus OBEs and retrievals because I've never experienced a waking OBE and that might make all the difference.  Also, I'm impressed by the many verifications that gifted astral adepts sometimes experience.  I document some of the scientific verifications in my earlier "OBE and Phasing Evidence" post. 

But consider just 3 of Swedenborg's verifications.  (1) He was a friend of the the recently deceased Dutch ambassador.  The ambassador's widow was being harrassed by a silversmith for an unpaid bill.  The widow suspected her husband had paid the bill, but couldn't find the receipt.  Swedenborg offered to visit her husband in the afterlife and solve the mystery.  The discarnate ambassador told Swedenborg to give his wife this message: look for a secret compartment in the top drawer of an upstairs bureau.  The widow did so and found the missing receipt.  This verification cannot be explained as ESP from any living mind.

(2) The Queen of Sweden was grieving over her brother's death.  Swedenborg visited he deceased brother, who disclosed the content of the queen's last letter to him.  The Queen exclaimed, "No one alive knew the contents of that letter!"  Of course this astral contact might also be explained as ESP.

(3) Swedenborg was attending an academic conference in Gothenberg attended by some Europe's leading intellectuals (e.g. Immauel Kant).  Suddenly, he phased to a different dimension that allowed him to travel to his hometown, Stockholm.  He saw astrally that much of the city was ablaze, but consoled himself that the fire had stopped just short of his house.  He announced all this to those present and it was all later confirmed.  Swedenborg (d. 1772) lived before the era of telegraphs and telephones.  No one at the conference could have known about the Great Fire of Stockholm by normal means.

I think that spiritual seekers need to come to grips with the fact that the Newtonian model has largely been supplanted by quantum physics and relativity theory.  String theory also seems promising as a potential way of establishing the existence of parallel dimensions that might correspond with heavenly and hellish realms. 

The holographic model is also promising.  It fits well with biologist Rupert Sheldrake's experiments designed to demonstrate the "morphogenetic fields" in which each species participates.  For example, over the decades he has experimented with how long rats take to master a maze over time.  He found that, decades later, rats thousands of miles away improved their maze time with no obvious influence from Sheldrake's experimental rats.   Apparently, "the collective unconscious" of the species allowed rats everywhere to communicate with each other and learn at some telepathic level.  In this sense, some version of the holographic model may be a missing key to the mechanism of biological evolution.  By the same token, the human collective unconscious may be a key to understanding the mechanism of human  telepathy. 

Put simply, OBEs can be real, but does the "ghost" really leave the "machine"(= the body)?  In the last part of his life, OBE adept Robert Monroe preferred the term "phasing" to "OBE."  In my view, the classic view of the soul as a ghost within a machine is now obsolete.  True, certain parts of the brain seem to govern certain mental functions (e.g. memory).  But the will or core identity cannot be localized in any circumscribed area of the brain.  It seems better to think of the brain on the analogy of a radio transmitter, with the mind (soul) existing in some nonspatial dimension. 

As for the holographic model, it might be useful for me to again quote from Howard Storm's NDE conversaton with "Jesus and the angels":

"The angels refer to God in many ways, but the term most often used is The One.  God is The One because God is the source of everything.  There is NO THING other than God.  Everything came from God and everything returns to God....The creation is entirely in the NOW to God.  God's consciousness is the entire creation.  Everything that was, and everything that will be is THIS MOMENT to God ("My Descent into Death," pp. 68-69).

I think this understanding is quite compatible with both Scripture and Einstein's relativity theory.  Modern Christian theology has much to gain from engaging modern physics, but the issues are very complicated.

Don

"

Brendan,

I prefer to stress the logical consistency of Christianity with the latest modern sicientific theories.  These theories can also be made compatible with non-Western traditions like Zen Buddhism and therefore do not necessarily favor any one tradition's concept of "the Ultmate". 

In my view, the best scientific argument for Intelligent Design is made by microbiologist Michael Behe in his book, "Darwin's Black Box."  Behe is referring to the modern study of living cells as "the dark box" that was impossible for scientists in Darwin's day to penetrate.  Briefly, Behe demonstrates that each cell is governed by 6 systems (e.g. reproductive, etc.),  each of which is irreducibly complex, i.e., not the product of tiiny incremental evolutinary upgrades over millions of years.   To my knowledge, no evolutionist has been able to effectively  challenge Behe's arguments.   

His case amounts to a scientific restatement of this old argument: if you had never seen a watch but found one along a beach, you would conclude upon closer examination that the watch was irreducibly complex in the sense that it was obviously  intelligently designed and not the result of a long series of random events.  That argument for the universe's intellgent design is vulnerable to the charge that it is a weak analogy, but Behe's case is not so vulnerable to this charge.   

Let me give you an example of why I appreciate a monistic spin on Christian theology.  Paul develops the idea that the church is the corporate body of Christ and draws many inferences from this analogy.  Two of his negected inferences particularly intrigue me.  (!) He teaches that when one body part (e.g. the eye) suffers, the whole body suffers with it (1 Corinthians 12:26)."  He does not just mean that  the whole body SHOULD suffer; the pain speads through the body.  If God is "The One"  (to use Jesus' phrase in Storm's NDE) and if, at some level, humanity is one (e.g. in terms of the collective unconscious [Jung's phrase]), then Paul's point becomes more intelligible. 

Suppose I neglect the retarded or the poor in my church because I don't think they have much to offer.  Paul is saying that my neglect will in some measure harm the entire church.  The church's access to the Holy Spirit is a function of the degree of the church's loving harmony.  In other words, the Christian needs to apply this principle to the apparent "losers" in his community: "Your success is my success; your failure is my failure."   

To reinforce the spiritual power of organic harmony, Paul adds this principle: "God gives "greater honor to the parts that lack it (12:24)."  In part he is referring to the procreative powers of sex organs that we nevertheless feel the need to keep covered in public.  I have seen this truth demonstrated in many ways, but let me give just two examples.  (1) Though a committed Christian, I am also a skeptic by temperament.  I've investigated many of the church's miracle claims over the years and this is what I've concluded: miracles claimed by the famous (e.g. televangelists) often do not stand up well to close scrutiny, but the miracles experienced by ordinary, often unimpressive believers are often as mind-blowing as the best of Gospel miracles.  Let me give just 3 of many examples: (a) A deaf mute in my church was instantly healed.  (b) My cousin Darlene's eye was badly torn by a tennis smash at close range.  She needed surgery to try to save the eye.  Some of her ordinary Christian friends prayed for her and she was instantly given "a brand new baby eye"(to use the phrase of the awestruck surgeon).  Of course, no surgery was necessary.  (c) In my youth, Ralph Cook was my Sunday School teacher.  He was an honest, kindly man, but a boring teacher.  But I'll never forget the Sunday he told us about his recent miracle.  He had accidentally cut off his finger with a power saw.  With adrenolin pumping, he grabbed the finger and put it back on his hand.  The finger healed without a scar.  I know Ralph was not making this up.  I rarely find comparably impressive miracles in the ministry of the famous.  In my view, God has a policy of reinforcing the truth that human consciousness is interconnected and that we can all contribute to the whole, regardless of our social standing.  Jesus expresses the same thought when He teaches, "Whenever you did it [some act of compassion] to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me (Matthew 25:40)."   

I inadvertently benefitted from this principle as a teenager.  My Dad sang in our choir and this meant I had to be in church an hour early for his choir practice.  There was nothing to do; so I talked to Bernie, a retarded fellow who also had to be there early to get his ride.  Bernie's impaired mental capacity prevented our conversations from being very interesting, but I liked Bernie's spirit.  Then one day he gave me the shock of my life.  He approached me with love in his eyes and said, "Don, I've been praying for you and I know God's going to make you a theologian some day."  His speech to me that Sunday was extremely articulate, well beyond his normal capacity.  yet it was as if the voice of God spoke to me through Bernie and I ultimately realized that he had tapped into my future destiny.  At the time I had no desire to study theology or become a theology professor or minister and none of my educated adult advisors were suggesting such a career for me.  I've often thought of Bernie's prophetic comment since I finally obtained my doctorate in religious studies.   

Brendan, if you want to read more about what I find really convincing in my Christian experience, read my post "God and Destiny" on p. 5 or 6 of this site.  Also, I remind you that I will eventually focus on your questions and objections in my "A Fresh Look at Heaven" post; so you might periodically check in there.

Don

Brendan,

I consider your dissent as an intelligent alternative position.  I'm clear that I could never simply argue you or any skeptic into embracing my theistic interpretation.  My only hope is that someday you'll have your own self-authenticating experiences of God's loving presence and intimate communion. Then these conversations might be more meaningful in retrospect.  I share your skepticism part way. That is, I've learned from my many supernatural experiences that it is sometimes impossible to determine where divine intervention begins and where untapped mental powers end. 

Let me illustrate how this distinction can be important.  A pretty Harvard artist was being victimized by an emotionally abusive and unfaithful husband.  A Catholic at the time, Linda believed divorce was wrong.  One day, she felt the need for a sign from God.  So she randomly placed her finger in her Bible and came across an anti-divorce text.  This practice is called bibliomancy and was used as far back as St. Francis. 

When I heard this, I smiled and demanded, "Gimme that Bible!"  I then swiftly put my finger in at random and found that it pointed to a pro-divorce text. Linda was intially aghast but then smiled impishly and said, "So are you saying that your divine guidance trumps mine?"  "No, Linda, one day I thought I received divine guidance through this method.  I used it to gain a divine promise and that promise was immediately fulflled.  So I thought, `This is great. I'll use this method all the time.'  I soon found I could randomly put my finger on any premeditated topic I wished.  But only the first time did this seem to reflect divine guidance.  I had just discovered a weird mental power that could easily deceive me if I treated the results as a sign." 

Then I said to Linda: "I think both your bibliomancy and mine were merely the result of our psychic powers.  Just do what your heart tells you is right about the divorce issue."  She divorced her husband and I developed a great relationship with a beautiful young woman as a result. 

Don

Perhaps.  In fact that might be the basis for an interesting experiment.  What gets me is that I seem to have some bizarre but useless psychic talents.  For example, I speed-walk 7-10.5 miles several days a week.  I notice that when I focus intently on certain street lights, they go off if they were on and go on if they were off. I also notice that passing cars generally seem to have no effect on them.  The last time I zapped a light like this, it went out and simultaneously a parked car started honking like crazy as its headlights blinked on and off.   To be honest, I suspect that this may all have a natural explanation.  I have no effect on most street lights.  But I'm frustrated that I have many useless psychic experiences and wonder how these might be harnessed to some useful purpose.

Don

Don, I can identify with what you are saying here.  Some years ago my energies would have an effect on mechanical things such as my car.  I could go to the grocery store for example and when I was done shopping, I’d get in my car and it wouldn’t start.  This happened quite frequently over several months.  There was nothing wrong with the car according to the mechanics that who had checked it.  Also, anyone else that I asked could get in and start it right up.  I constantly had to ask strangers if they would start my car for me. 

Other things happened, too, like windshield wipers start working without me turning them on, or stop working when I needed them most.  Door locks would also lock or unlock.  Seemed like I was always breaking something.  Eventually I figured out that if I could break it, I could fix it by “blending” with it.  My emotions seemed to play a part in this.  If I was rushed, upset about something, angry, etc., I broke things.  If my emotions were smooth and calm, I could fix things.  Some time passed and others things had happened, but eventually I learned to direct the energy I was running and I eventually learned how to run healing energy.

Guess what I’m saying is that it may only be a matter of you learning to direct the energy you are running.

Love and peace,
Kathy

Brendan,

actually I'm sure it happens for songs you like and dislike.

The human brain is made in such a way that we easily see what is going against the norm. This is also why we tend to remember exceptions.

So if you dislike something or a bad event happens to you, you WILL remember them. Good things tend to be forgotten since there is no point in remembering them.

This is also why we tend to remember exceptions.

AHA... welcome to MY thread, Mr. Howes. 8)
You speak of a "firm anchor" for my beliefs as
being a desirable, or even necessary, thing.
But consider this.
Science is based on an ever-changing view of
reality. Indeed, the STRENGTH of science (and I
DO believe it ultimately has the answer for
EVERYTHING... there is no such thing as magic,
J.D.) is that it constantly EVOLVES. What we thought
was true yesterday, is false today. We adapt our
worldview. And so progress marches on...
Would you call SCIENCE insanity, Mr. Howes? After all, it is not based a a "firm anchor of belief"... indeed, if it had one, it would not function.
You would have me believe that it is better to have
an UNCHANGING, rock-solid, unassailable belief system... You know, Mr. Howes... there was a time when almost everybody (including the "scientists" such as they were) believed this.
We call it "The Middle Ages." During that era (500-1500 A.D.) writers called it the "Age of Faith." One thousand years of stagnation, barbarism, and institutionalized STUPIDITY. (And it could happen... AGAIN, Mr. Howes. Watch the news...)
Not a time I'd have wanted to live in... how about YOU, J.D.???
In the spirit of INQUIRY, I am happy to see my beliefs evolve... for that is the only way to the truth. Science's track record PROVES it, my friend.
And to conclude... in our back-and-forth exchanges, I have noticed something about you and myself, Mr. Howes.
You crave security, and emotional salve (i.e., certainty and stability.)
I crave freedom, and adventure (i.e., change and possibility.)
F'rinstance, I'm guessing you'd enjoy "Family Circus." Me, I'm more of a "Far Side" kind of guy (*SIGH*... in comic strips, only the good die young...)
We're two different men, you and I. But isn't variety the spice of life? If there is some kind of "God", I cannot help but believe he/she/it would agree...
Cheers,

B-man

[quote author=Snoopydoo
Hi,
I was wondering, for those of you who claim to have gone out of their body and float near the ceiling.
Can't you get someone to put a written message on top of a cabinet inside your room so that when you go out-of-body, you could actually see the message and report back afterwards?
This to me would prove that someone could go OBE and is ot in a dream which may seem real but is not...
Did someone here ever did that?
Thanks [/quote]


Hi SnoopyDoo!

I thought I'd answer your question before it gets totally lost in this thread.  I remember hearing of this kind of OBE experiment many years ago.  It is too long ago for me to remember the exact details but yes it's been done. 

What I know from OBE's is that the information we perceive while out of body can get distorted by us, so that we interpret it into something else.  This is not true of all things, of course, but just some things. 

For instance, an author I like to read stated she had an OBE and walked around inside her house but discovered there was a window and a potted plant that didn't exist in the physical world.  Another author talked about seeing a door leading to a basement during his OBE, but he knew in the physical world his house didn't have a basement. 

These things don't mean that the OBE wasn't a real experience.  Just know that your perception in an OBE won't be exactly how you see in the physical world.  I myself have had this happen, where one detail is altered but all the other facts and details are exact and can be proven. 

Vicky

Dear Brendan,

Nothing in my replies can be deemed inappropriate for discussion... just simple biology analogy, logic & direct questions. You said yourself your background is in human biology ... and I enjoy writing about what people can relate to. These open forum strings are designed to "invite" new ideas, open-minds and sharing... not for rejecting such things. 

You've enjoyed emotionally flaming me without mercy on my "How Are You Dealing With The Afterlife" forum. Bruce Moen doesn't appreciate that kind of behavior from anyone... and I agree.(See Forum Rules) It ruins discussion strings for everyone. Wouldn't you agree?

My guess is, my discussion string really struck a nerve with you to react so...fervently... you can't fool me, my friend. Think what you may of me... it matters not... what I care about... is you. 

Now, you are all upset because I asked several well-focused questions... and now you don't want to chat? Tsk Tsk

What a shame... if these simpler spiritual questions upset you then I am glad I did not ask some even harder ones. You see, when you dig for truth... you ask more questions... and so forth. It's called learning...

I hope you find the answers you seek... but whining about people who don't play by your rules will never change life, reality or the afterlife.

I wish you well...

P.S. My forum string is closed - Per Bruce

Author JD Howes
www.jdhowes.com

Brendan,

I've spent a great many years studying a wide range of belief systems... and personally... Atheism is my favorite because of the incredible amount of faith it takes not to believe in God or anything... in spite of the overwhelming levels of complex data that says otherwise...

Now, Buddism is coming in a close second because it's native roots can be traced back to a man making the first scientific notes about nature and building a natural religion around it based on his observations. -But I digress...

And when it comes to those sharing their opinions, essays and viewpoints on Chrisitanity... it's just the same old derogatory slamming show. It gets kinda boring after a while reading the same old uninformed stuff... sorry, but you guys really need to get some new material. The old arguments just don't hold water.

You see, as I've pointed out on many occasions... emotional insults are all that are left to someone who cannot defend their thoughts, ideaologies, beliefs or position on anything. The problem with believing in nothing is... it leaves you weak, vulnerable and empty... and at a great disadvantage when so much evidence dictates the opposite. 

I may be an real annoyance to many because of my rock solid beliefs in Jesus Christ; others may question my motives, emotional stability and such... but I just consider the source. I know what I know because I survived long enough to learn something new. I've been baptized in the fires, trials and hatreds of life and have won these spiritual battle wounds the hard way.

I'm no simpleton quoting pie-in-the-sky philosophies... I LIVE MY FAITH EVERY DAY. I SEE MY FAITH & BELIEF IN GOD BECOME REAL... EVERYDAY. I have an imperfect viewpoint on my faith in God because I try making him what I THINK HE SHOULD BE... and usually isn't! And since I've finally learned whose the boss in my life... I've learned God's ways really do make sense for this life. Annoying... yes... but smart!

I BELIEVE IN SOMETHING BRENDAN. I Believe In God. I am stronger for it than you... NOT BETTER. I've quit fighting my Creator because I realized how stupid I looked doing so... when I got real and weighed the real evidences of life more objectively... over a 20 year period.

More than that... my faith in GOD is REAL because it has literally saved my life several times when I should have died... and did not. And no rational or scientific explantion could be provided.

Brendan, I was not kidding, joking or ridiculing you when I said I care what happens to you. I really do want you to find your answers. I want everyone on this site to find what they are looking for!

And I want those answers to calm all your anger, fears and frustrations with this life and give you all the stability, confidence, blessings and joyful strength you are entitled to. It just takes tapping into a power source stronger than yourself to grow beyond what you thought was possible for your life.

Don't take my word for it... like everyone else, I've just shared what has worked wonderfully for me. I take immense pride in Jesus Christ... not as a religion... but as the person he has revealed himself to me as over the years through the lives of others.

Please don't settle for anything less than the best spiritual power for your life, my friend.

No matter how much you may not like me, flame me, annoy me, get frustrated and dog me...etc. I WILL STILL BELIEVE IN YOU, Brendan...

And I will continue to make it my focus to encourage you, lift you up, treat you respectfully and always be completely honest with you. As a human being you deserve to be treated with dignity.

I am not here to win... I am not here to feel superior... I am not here to uphold my ego... I am here to be real. I am here to speak what I know to be true; have experienced personally and stand on confidently until the day my personal deadline carries me into the afterlife.

Something this awesome should be shared with all... If I can't trust Christ with my life how can I dare trust him with my eternity?


JD

WELL said, Blink.
And I have nothing more to say to J.D.,
as I have no interest in being drawn into
a U.S. in Iraq-equivalent "intellectual quagmire"
which will at best end up going in a circle. The current Iraq debacle is a good analogy, really... I'd have rationality and logic (POWER!) on my side (like the U.S.) but he's got obstinacy and thick-skulled PERSEVERANCE on his side (like the insurgents.) AND, just like George Bush being interviewed on the eve of our ill-advised excursion into Iraq in 2003, he'll just keep drumming on the same response ("Weapons of Mass Destruction"/ "Something REAL to Believe In") to every question and statement I pose. When I get tired and quit (like the U.S. eventually will in Iraq) he can then call himself the winner (like Al-Qaeda will when we pull out.) "Guerrilla Warfare" debating anyone? I'll take a raincheck.
Our friend Mr. Howes claims miracles from his "God";
he refuses to see that followers of other faiths,
belief systems (or lack thereof!) and what have
you can lay claim to similar experiences.
I myself have had some VERY close scrapes, and I
was a mechanistic materialist atheist for most of my
life! Yet here I am... alive, kicking, and well.
Mr. Howes wants to "kow-tow" to a "King" that
OTHER FALLIBLE HUMANS told him about? Good
for him. Me, I'll find my own way... like the rest of
the fallible humans who come to this awesome
site to LEARN, not proselytize, threaten, or insult.
I mean... is Ultimate Truth like a hot potato, to be
handed to the next fallible person, who frantically
hands it to the NEXT fallible person, ad nauseum? (Hey - I just described the very ESSENCE of proselytizing..!) I think NOT.
...AMEN.

B-man