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Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger (Read 378688 times)
Berserk
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #15 - Feb 3rd, 2005 at 5:07pm
 
The opening sentence of Allen Bloom's celebrated book "The Closing of the American Mind,"  states somewhat hyperbolically: "There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative."  Dora's reply misses the point: the point at issue is not the  duplicitous STATED purpose of the channelers, but their HIDDEN agendas, i.e., the dangerous lie embedded with their occasional truths. 

As already discussed, one of these lies is the rejection of the good vs evil polarity.  Dora and Glen try to rescue Seth from this charge by noting that Seth links accountability with the fact that "you create your own reality."  This absurd claim is decisively refuted by life experience, but that is a separate issue.  The salient point is that "accountability" is not "moral" accountability if the good vs. evil polarity is rejected.  The rejection of this polarity means that the only incentive to be moral is to preserve a pleasing self-image and life experience.  The spiritual trap is this:  moral relativists feel free to be immoral, even criminal, when it suits them, when it feels good, and when they imagine they can get away with it.  Dora's reply fails to demonstrate that any of my key points are undermined by lifting quotes out of their Sethian context. 

What Dora, Marilyn, Debbie, and Glen fail to realize and the Seth, Elias, and Ramtha entities perversely fail to acknowledge is this:  my critique is more than personal belief; it is established by excellent sociological research.  For example, a fairly recent sociological study indicates that when our youth reject moral absolutes and an objective standard of truth, they become:

36% more likely to lie to their parents
48% more likely to cheat on exams
twice as likely to try to physically hurt someone
2 1/4 times more likely to steal
6 times more likely to attempt suicide
twice as likely to lack purpose and be resentful and angry with life
twice as likely to get drunk and three times as likely to use illegal drugs
(see Josh McDowell and Bob Hostetler, "Right from 'Wrong," p. 14 and throughout). 

Dora's reply misses the point about the exorcism and disillusioned channelers I discuss.  Prior to his possession, Robbie's New Age family saw no reason to doubt their "verification" that the late Aunt Harriet was communicating from the astral realm and that the Ouija board was a safe spiritual tool.  Raphael and Johanna initially embrace their channeling philosophy and have little concern about demonic intervention.  it is the intrusion of the demonic, not their fears and beliefs, that initiate their disillusionment with New Age assumptions.

if Dora, Marilyn, and Debbie would just read Malachi Martin's seminal book "Hostage to the Devil," I'm confident they would be convinced that demonic power is very real and cannot be reduced to the Sethian notion of the Devil as a hallucinatory projection of our fears and beliefs.  Why?  What is so convincing about genuine exorcisms?  Martin explains this clearly: what convinces the skeptic is not the sudden drop in temperature when a demon manifests, not the teleportation of objects around the room, not the victim's levitation, not the demon's disclosure of the most embarrassing secrets of members of the exorcist  team, not even the supernatural threat words scratched on the victim's flesh by an unseen hand.   These phenonema can be present, but what convinces that skeptic is the PRESENCE, the electrifyiing presence of seering and disorienting hatred, including (in Peck's phrase) the victim's "incredibly contemptuous grin of utter hostile malevolence." 

My cousin E was 2 or 3 when a demon tried to possess him.  Contrary to Dora's and Seth's assumptions, E was too young to believe in demons.  But his Dad, a pastor, had just finished an exorcism inside a house, and E was left with his Mom in the car outside until its completion.  The demon's attempt to possess young E coincided with the demon's expulsion from the lady in the house.  E's eyes rolled up in his head with only the whites of his eyes visible.  Of his deep trance, E can only remember being protected in Jesus' loving arms.  Only his parents' fervent prayers helped E fend off the evil entity.

In my 16-year-old brother's exorcism of IB, his TV revelry was literally interrupted by God.  As I watched, puzzled, God revealed to my brother (D), IB's possessed status, name, and location.  When D arrived at  the distant coffee shop, a stranger inexplicably approached him and oddly observed:
"You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"  IB's gang soon arrived and started challenging patrons to a fight.  D's courageous confrontation with IB and word of exorcism left IB writhing like a serpent on the pavement outside, frothing at the mouth, and finally able to quietly say, "Thank you."   I'm still haunted by that amazing night in my home town.  IB has since written an excellent book on Christian spirituality.  The evidence for the demonic is far more impressive that that for the contrary insights of channeling.

Berserk

P.S. Glen, are you Amish? Your TV aversion made me wonder.  Smiley
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Dora
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #16 - Feb 3rd, 2005 at 7:11pm
 
This time to Donald,

Quote:
Dora's reply misses the point: the point at issue is not the  duplicitous STATED purpose of the channelers, but their HIDDEN agendas, i.e., the dangerous lie embedded with their occasional truths


Dora did not miss  the point  - Donald did -since Dora didn't reply to Donald  post, simply posted the other  side of the coin, and pointed out that IT IS  time for let people form their own opinion, without someone else tell them what and why and how to think...

Quote:
Dora and Glen try to rescue Seth from this charge by noting that Seth links accountability with the fact that "you create your own reality."


I cannot talk in Glen behalf only myself there is no need for "rescue" Seth material speaks for itself- according to the reader awareness ,beside I do not care about Donald or matter of fact anyone else opinion, I have my preferences in beliefs  and choices what I align with - same like Donald have, only without the repelling righteous attitude.

Quote:
What Dora, Marilyn, Debbie, and Glen fail to realize and the Seth, Elias, and Ramtha entities perversely fail to acknowledge is this:  my critique is more than personal belief; it is established by excellent sociological research.


Maybe Dora, Marilyn, Debbi and Glen relay on their own experiences, and don't give one iota about the so called "excellent" research what based on someone else beliefs system.. and maybe they adult and independent enough to  decide who's or what book they "should"  read...

Quote:
Dora's reply misses the point about the exorcism and disillusioned channelers I discuss.  

Again Dora's reply not directed to Donald, and Dora didn't care less what Donald "discuss" Dora simply let the readers choose based on the correctly presented quotes, and material what they wish to align with or don't.

Regarding Donald cousin and brother experiences, that would be the biggest surprise to see if they WOULDN'T ENCOUNTER with the reinforced, pre-programmed beliefs and they wouldn't manifest exactly according to that....

Finally again - not now, not in the past, and not in the future I did or will  care what  Donald or anyone else believe, but every time when I find incorrectly twisted and turned information quotes  regarding Seth and Elias, I will continue to correct those informations, because of the  many reader who certainly getting the false information based on Donald bias opinion and beliefs...

There is a big difference between sharing understandings about Seth and Elias  material - or even lack of it- then twisting materials to fit to our ego driven personal agenda and beliefs.  

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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #17 - Feb 3rd, 2005 at 7:59pm
 
Quote:
There is a big difference between sharing understandings about Seth and Elias  material - or even lack of it- then twisting materials to fit to our ego driven personal agenda and beliefs.


I never got the impression that Donald is motivated by ego.  I think he genuinely believes that people can be attacked by evil beings pretending to be good, and he wants to prevent this from happening.

I, for one, am grateful that he is raising this issue, because there is a whole lot of channeled material out there, all claiming to be coming from God or the Holy Spirit or angels or prophets or with good intentions, but which contradicts each other in many points and which contains elements which can lead people into self-absorbtion and despair as they become convinced that God is not saving us but that we must "earn" all our spiritual advancement through "free will."

I disagree with Donald's extensive focus (some might say excessive worry) about demonic attack and possession.  In fact, I think focusing on this stuff so much can actually bring it on, because demonic beings like nothing more than to be noticed and feared.

My own belief tends to be that there are a variety of beings out there in the spiritual world, on a spectrum from very good to very evil, with much in-between.  Some of the more evil beings like to scare people, gain credit for everything rather than giving glory to God, promote their own pet doctrines, and lead people down paths that will put them into bondage.  The most evil of the spirits may even enjoy full-blown sadism, and indulge in it constantly with humans as their playthings, like a cat tormenting a mouse.  But we must remember, God and the good spiritual beings such as Jesus, are actively working to limit the influence of the more evil beings, and have MUCH more power than them!  "Demonic" beings mostly gain their power from humans fearing and respecting them.  If we just stop being so afraid, and we put our trust in God, I think we will gain maturity and understanding to be able to see through the schemes of selfish spirits who want to use us for their own ends.

Freebird
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #18 - Feb 3rd, 2005 at 8:24pm
 
Quote:
My cousin E was 2 or 3 when a demon tried to possess him.  Contrary to Dora's and Seth's assumptions, E was too young to believe in demons.  But his Dad, a pastor, had just finished an exorcism inside a house, and E was left with his Mom in the car outside until its completion.  The demon's attempt to possess young E coincided with the demon's expulsion from the lady in the house.  E's eyes rolled up in his head with only the whites of his eyes visible.  Of his deep trance, E can only remember being protected in Jesus' loving arms.  Only his parents' fervent prayers helped E fend off the evil entity.


I have an open mind to the possibility that your cousin really was attacked by an evil spirit.  But couldn't it instead be related to the fact that his father was going around doing exorcisms, and he probably saw examples of this and heard his father talking about it at home?  Kids are very impressionable at that age, and they love to play "pretend."  Maybe your cousin wanted more attention from his father, and he saw him giving lots of attention to these demonically-possessed people, so he decided to pretend to be possessed by a demon himself.  It's a possibility.

Quote:
In my 16-year-old brother's exorcism of IB, his TV revelry was literally interrupted by God.  As I watched, puzzled, God revealed to my brother (D), IB's possessed status, name, and location.  When D arrived at  the distant coffee shop, a stranger inexplicably approached him and oddly observed:
"You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"  IB's gang soon arrived and started challenging patrons to a fight.  D's courageous confrontation with IB and word of exorcism left IB writhing like a serpent on the pavement outside, frothing at the mouth, and finally able to quietly say, "Thank you."


First of all, I did not see this happen and therefore I cannot say whether or not it was a real case of exorcism.  I am open to the possibility.  However, there is another possibility.

It sounds to me like all of the people involved in this story probably had a belief in demons.  Your brother believed in casting them out, and the gang leader was probably into some weird satanic stuff (a lot of gangs are).  The writhing on the ground and foaming at the mouth could have been an act to get attention.  Yes, people do pretend to be possessed by the devil.  It happens a lot in pentecostal churches.  Notice that it is the people who believe strongly in demons who seem to have the most problems with them.  You don't hear about a lot of liberal Episcopalians or Unitarians writhing on the ground from demons.  It's usually the people who believe in demons, focus on them or worry about them all the time who seem to be the ones attacked by them.

Assuming your beliefs are correct, I would also like to ask a question:  If demon possession just happens to people all the time, like this guy in your town, what happens to all these people when they die?  Do they get dragged down to hell by the attached demons?  Or does Jesus save them?

I have a lot of undiagnosable, untreatable neurological problems.  Despite fervent prayers in Jesus' name, I have not received healing either from God or doctors or alternative medicine.  Does that mean I'm demon-possessed too?  Even though I have prayed many times to Jesus, asking him to protect me from evil spirits?  Even though I sincerely pledge the allegiance of my soul to Jesus as Lord?

Do I need to get an exorcism?  Multiple exorcisms?  Exorcisms going on and on until I'm perfectly healthy?  Is there any way to know if somebody is demon-possessed if the demon chooses not to reveal himself?  What about demons who simply do not come out, regardless of how many rituals of exorcism are performed?

I just think it's dangerous to be so focused on demons and the overwhelming powers of demons.  I don't think we have nearly so much to fear as you seem to think.  God is in control.  "I will never leave you nor forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5).

Freebird
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #19 - Feb 3rd, 2005 at 8:44pm
 
Quote:
Freebird, you raise 8 profound issues for which I am grateful.  Your issues take my post in a direction it needs to go.   Here are my responses:


Thank you for your excellent responses.  See my response about reincarnation in a thread entitled "Reincarnation in Christianity."

Quote:
Jesus, Paul, Revelation, and 2nd century Christian apocalyptic literature all teach  that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.


I'm glad to hear you believe this, as I do.

Quote:
I lay out the basics of my case in a post entitled "A Fresh Look at Heaven" in the same section of the "Astralpulse" site as my post on reincarnation.   I'd love to get your reaction.


I'll take a look.

Quote:
(4) If entities can pretend to do good when in fact they are evil, then how can we be sure that anything supposedly revealed was really coming from the Holy Spirit?
_________________________________________

The New Testament answer?  Through the gift of spiritual discernment exercised in the context of the corporate body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:10; 14:29).

.....

But now let me stress the obvious: for a Christian the ultimate test of the gift of discernment is the question of whether an alleged revelation contradicts the central message of Jesus and the Gospel.   This question is is not always easy to answer.  The Bible is not an inerrant book and the message of Jesus and the Gospel can be perverted or misunderstood.


Boy, do you have that right!  That's why there are thousands of different churches and denominations, all teaching totally different versions of Christianity.  I just think we should focus on the basics: stuff like Jesus's Messiahship, divine nature, death on the cross, resurrection and appearances after death, and of course his teachings.  All the other doctrines are of lesser importance, IMO.  Some doctrines actually detract from the true message of the Gospel, a major example being the doctrine of eternal torment held by the vast majority of Christians today.

Quote:
Discernment presumes that one has applied the biblical principles of prayer and meditation and that one has humbly allowed the corporate body of Christ to test one's insights.  But first one must find a compatible church where the atmosphere is electric with the presence of God and an overpowering spirit of love.


I think it's very, very, very hard to find such a church.  I have found that most churches are either focused on promoting certain pet doctrines, or they are like business enterprises focused on getting as many people in the door as possible, and providing facilities such as child care, youth groups, exercise rooms, etc.  I no longer attend church.  I simply do not find it inspiring.  Some churches actually give me a feeling of spiritual revulsion.

Quote:
God doesn't want robots.  To God the value of our free will is a function of the strength of our inclination to make choices that alienate us from Him.  This insight is the basis of the mystery of spiritual warfare.  Only God knows how strong this contrary inclination needs to be to maximize the value of our freely offered love.

Why didn't God create a world without pain, suffering, and hardship?  Because without these, there would be no pain-dependent virtues.   Courage requires danger and risk.  Compassion requires suffering.  Generosity requires want.  Patience requires frustration and nerve-wracking delays.  And who are we to say that a moral order would be better off without courage, compassion, generosity, and patience in God's eyes?


Good points.

Quote:
Jesus concedes the ability of evil people apparently to perform a variety of miracles: "Many will say to me on that day,  `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in our name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?  And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you.  Away from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:22-23)!"


Too bad it seems like a lot of the people doing the most miracle healing, exorcisms, and stuff like this, are actually the ones who have perverted the Gospel the most.  It's a matter of great frustration to me.  How often do you hear about a pastor who doesn't believe in eternal hell, doesn't promote legalism, doesn't obsessively focus on "tongues," and doesn't tell people they're supposed to get rich and successful and have a pleasant life if they are truly saved, who has the ability to heal people and cast out demons?  Almost never.  Actually, I've never heard of such a pastor.  Seems like good and loving understanding of the Gospel and miraculous gifts don't mix -- like oil and water, for some reason.

Quote:
Why evil spirits help people can partly be explained in terms of the psychodynamics of evil analyzed by psychiatrist Scott Peck.  In "People of the Lie," Peck associates evil with "malignant narcissism."

.....

The long-range goal of evil is to compete with divine blessings in an effort to seduce people away from loving and serving God the right way.  This seduction might bond souls to lower spiritual planes or hells on the basis of affinities subtly developed between the evil entity and its human victims.


Makes sense.  I think that's a logical explanation.

Freebird
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #20 - Feb 4th, 2005 at 12:19am
 
Freebird, check out Unity Church. I think you will be amazed and hopefully delighted as I am.  Wink

With Love,
Mairlyn   Cheesy
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Glen
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #21 - Feb 4th, 2005 at 2:28am
 
Hi Berserk,

To answer your last question first, no, I'm not Amish, though I did live with a Mennonite family one summer.  I've abstained from watching TV most of my life, however, being so dissatisfied with all the commercials, canned laughter and generally degrading images of people presented there.

I realized after I posted my last message that I made the mistake of conflating accountability with responsibility.  I apologize.  The word accountability raises the question, however, of accountability to whom.  I suppose if a person believes in a God that passes judgement on us (which I don't, BTW), then that probably answers the question.  If not, I'm not sure where accountability comes into the picture.

You mention the idea of (some, not all?) chanelers having a hidden agenda.  How does one tell if there's a hidden agenda?  Jane Roberts (who chaneled Seth and was raised in Catholicism) was always afraid she might be leading people astray by spreading Seth's teachings.  She openly acknowledged this fear, and while she tried her best to apply Seth's teachings to her life, I think her upbringing and this fear often kept her from doing so.

Quote:
As already discussed, one of these lies is the rejection of the good vs evil polarity.  Dora and Glen try to rescue Seth from this charge by noting that Seth links accountability with the fact that "you create your own reality."  This absurd claim is decisively refuted by life experience, but that is a separate issue.  The salient point is that "accountability" is not "moral" accountability if the good vs. evil polarity is rejected.  The rejection of this polarity means that the only incentive to be moral is to preserve a pleasing self-image and life experience.  The spiritual trap is this:  moral relativists feel free to be immoral, even criminal, when it suits them, when it feels good, and when they imagine they can get away with it.


I realize you may not agree with what I have to say, but I'll say it anyway.

Beliefs and reality are two different things.  For example, let's say there is a very definite reality which exists, which contains within it the Earth and all the people who live on it.  Amongst all these people there's you and me, and we each have our own beliefs about the nature of this reality.  That is, you have your beliefs about it and I have mine.  These are two different sets of beliefs, so even though we're talking about the same reality, your understanding of it is different from mine.  Either or both of us might be partially or totally incorrect in our understanding of this one reality.  Our personal understanding of reality is based upon our individual beliefs, however, and since beliefs are technically arbitrary ~ that is, any person may or may not believe in God, and could theoretically just flip a coin to decide ~ either one of us could be right or wrong in any particular part of our understanding.

Now, the question of whether or not evil exists in this reality is debatable.  You believe it does, while I don't.  You believe in some kind of "moral accountability," while I don't.  And you believe that the lack of belief in such moral accountability automatically leads to certain consequences.  It seems to me that one need not be a "moral relativist," however, "to be immoral, even criminal, when it suits them, when it feels good, and when they imagine they can get away with it."  A person could be a very religious, moral person and still be such a criminal (though they'd probably feel lots of guilt), and some "moral relativist" might live according to the strictest moral code without even being aware of such a code, and without having "the only incentive" of preserving a pleasing self-image and life experience.

Quote:
What Dora, Marilyn, Debbie, and Glen fail to realize and the Seth, Elias, and Ramtha entities perversely fail to acknowledge is this:  my critique is more than personal belief; it is established by excellent sociological research.

Research and statistics can usually be found to support most any argument.  In any case, research or not, your critique does reflect your personal beliefs.  It is your critique, after all.

All this talk of various chaneled entities being considered demonic, while perhaps helpful as a cautionary tale, in all fairness shouldn't be used to lead to the generalization that all chaneled entities are evil.  There might just be a few "bad apples."

Quote:
The evidence for the demonic is far more impressive that that for the contrary insights of channeling.

Different people are impressed by different evidence.

Best wishes,
Glen
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #22 - Feb 4th, 2005 at 3:06pm
 
Dear Glen,

Thanks for your response.  As I have tried to make clear, I do not assume all channeling is evil or even that Seth, Elias, Ramtha, and ACIM are demonic.  Even the dangeous Ouija board has, on occasion, generated some of the best verifications for an afterlife.  What I've tried to show is that these hidden agendas have evil effects.  As for your (and Dora's) claim that the sociological study cited reflects ideological bias, that comment in effect undermines the objective research of the social sciences.  The challenge you need to meet is this: if you reject the study's finding that moral relativism lincreases the likelihood of immoral and criminal behavior on a large variety of measures, then you bear the burden of producing other scientific studies that contradict these findings.  Otherwise, any absurd position can seek protection from its being unfalsifiable, even in principle.

OK, so you don't believe in evil and exorcisms of demons.   I have encountered no one who has read Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" and come away still unconvinced that the demonic is real.  I challenge you to read it and relay your reaction, if for no other reason, to stop me from making this bold claim.  You could be the first skeptic I know to retain his skepticism after reading that chilling survey of genuine American exorcisms.

Berserk
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #23 - Feb 5th, 2005 at 1:37am
 
Hi Berserk,

Since my library doesn't have "Hostage to the Devil," I looked it up at Amazon.com to see what people who've read it had to say.  Most of them talked more about the subject than about the book itself, and it sounds like the book is mostly a group of cases and his discussion of them.  If he cites research studies that have been done, perhaps you could tell us what studies they were and where we can see reports of them.  I tend to be skeptical when it comes to any claims of scientific research and statistical analysis, not just the kind that resulted in the figures you gave us.

Would you be satisfied if I read some of M. Scott Peck's book instead?  I happen to have a copy of "People of the Lie," so I can look through it to learn more about this devil possession thing.  If you'd like to direct me to any particular pages, I would appreciate it.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I don't think there's any reality to things like God, the devil and good and evil.  I can see that they're real for the people who believe in them; that's the way 'personal reality' works.  They're just not real for me.

So I'm not doubting that the stories contained in Martin's book are honest accounts of people's experiences; I'm just saying that such dramas only occur for people who hold those beliefs.

Quote:
What I've tried to show is that these hidden agendas have evil effects.

So, what are these hidden agendas and what are their evil effects?

Cheers,
Glen
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freebird
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #24 - Feb 5th, 2005 at 2:09am
 
Quote:
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I don't think there's any reality to things like God, the devil and good and evil.  I can see that they're real for the people who believe in them; that's the way 'personal reality' works.  They're just not real for me.

So I'm not doubting that the stories contained in Martin's book are honest accounts of people's experiences; I'm just saying that such dramas only occur for people who hold those beliefs.


Reality is not merely personal.  It is also objective (true for all people simultaneously).  That is the difference between reality and fantasy.

It should be pointed out that there are plenty of documented cases of people who did not believe certain phenomena were real, but then experienced something that challenged their view of reality, and they were forced to change their mind.  Atheists, skeptical and scientifically minded people have had NDEs and OBEs, religious visions, seen miracles, encountered ghosts, UFOs and aliens, angels, and even demons -- things they rejected so totally that they would actually ridicule before it happened to them.

This proves three things: (1) that we are not completely in control of our own reality, because reality is trans-personal and objective rather than purely an outgrowth of the individual mind; (2) that our beliefs are subject to change at any time due to external forces that may impose themselves upon our preconceived notion of reality, perhaps precisely to break us out of the shackles of solipsistic thinking and into a broader perception and understanding of the greater reality which lies beyond us; (3) that beings such as angels, demons, ghosts, aliens, etc. exist in and of themselves or in the Universal Mind (God's absolute reality), not merely in our own mind.

Freebird
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #25 - Feb 5th, 2005 at 4:27pm
 
Dear Glen,

I admire your honest candor.  I highly recommend Peck's "People of the Lie" because it is the first book of its kind, a psychiatist's analysis of evil's psychodynamics manifested in individual case histories, group evil (the MyLai massacre in Vietnam), and two possession cases.  One Peckian theory embraces all 3 forms of evil.  Part of the book's fascination is that it makes one reflect on the question of whether one has encountered people that fit Peck's profile. 

I think the book would expand your horizons, but I doubt that it would convince a skeptic that evil exists.  If you just want a taste of it, read his chapter on exorcism.  The book does not go into a lot of specifics about exactly what happened in the exorcisms that made Peck a believer.  Peck's new book " Glimpses of the Devil" fills that vacuum, but I've only read a few parts of it so far.  Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" is unique because its case histories actually make the reader feel "evil energy." 

I was a college professor of Religious Studies for 12 years.  One very bright skeptic challenged me to convince him that evil exists; so I referred him to Martin's book.  A month later he came back to me somewhat shattered.  He agreed  with me that the book was absolutely convincing, but said he couldn't finsh it because it had made him an insomniac.  For that reason, I'll understand if you decide not to read it.  I don't want to be overbearing about this. I'm grateful that you were even willing to search for reviews.  Still, his book is by far the most persuasive on the subject.   


To Freebird I want to add this: My cousin E was just 2-3 when he was attacked by the entity that his Dad had just exorcised in the house.  E was too young to grasp what was involved in an exorcism and had no idea that his attack coincided with the expulsion.  As for my brother's esorcism, how did he know the name and location of the young thug needing an exorcism, and why would a stranger walk up to him and ask if he was at the coffee house on a special mission?  To me the psychic events that surround this incident support a supernatural interpretion of the exorcism's success.
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #26 - Feb 5th, 2005 at 8:56pm
 
Quote:
To Freebird I want to add this: My cousin E was just 2-3 when he was attacked by the entity that his Dad had just exorcised in the house.  E was too young to grasp what was involved in an exorcism and had no idea that his attack coincided with the expulsion.  As for my brother's esorcism, how did he know the name and location of the young thug needing an exorcism, and why would a stranger walk up to him and ask if he was at the coffee house on a special mission?  To me the psychic events that surround this incident support a supernatural interpretion of the exorcism's success.


You're probably right.  The way you describe these incidents does sound like there was some kind of supernatural activity involved.  I am very uncomfortable with the thought of "demonic attack" but I must admit I do believe things like this can occur.

Freebird
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Petrus
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #27 - Feb 6th, 2005 at 9:40pm
 
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"A dense black fog was forming all around me, blotting out the path.  Within seconds I could see nothing.  The dark mist was swirling, alive, filled with the presence of something more monstrous than anything I had ever encountered.  Voices began whispering, hissing incoherent words and laughter in my right ear.  An ice-cold breath touched the back of my neck under my hair.  `Hermanito, help me!'  I gasped.  The voices shrieked in hideous laughter: `We're going to kill you!'  I panicked and broke into a run.  Something lie a giant fist slammed into my back...I pitched forward in the thick darkness and instinctively reached out to break my fall...I tried to scream out, `Jesus, Jesus, help me!'  `He can't help you!' the voices shrieked...I could see the faces of countless demons, contorted, twisted in indescribable rage (pp. 146-47)."   


Not meaning to discount this woman's experience...but I found myself wanting to try and look at this logically.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that this woman HAD contacted demons.  Let's also assume that said demons were wanting to use her for the purposes of also deceiving other people and leading them astray...for the purposes of cultivating their souls or whatever.  Given that, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me that said demons would appear to her in this manner...because all that would serve to do is exactly what it did...Namely, it scared her away from her present activity and caused her to presumably adopt a more conventional form of Christianity.  If the demons' purpose was to use her to continue to deceive others, why would they want to do that?  It would mean that they would then have to go about finding someone else to further their agenda...which to me seems extremely self-defeating.  So it seems to me that we're looking at four possibilities here.

a)  The demons really aren't all that smart.

b)  The demons are so completely chaotic that their behaviour is incapable of following a coherent plan (i.e., although they might deceive people for a while into thinking they're all sweetness and light, they won't be able to help the above genuine manifestation of themselves from being made known)

c)  The vision wasn't a genuinely paranormal event, but instead was some kind of psychoactive/psychosomatic incident triggered by residual guilt that this woman may have had over leaving Christianity.

d)  She actually was doing good work, and because of that, evil spirits/demons wanted to try and scare her away from doing it so that she would cease to as effectively help people.  This is very possible, given what I myself have been reading at ascension2000.com.  One of the channels who produced that material apparently experienced fairly constant negative spiritual attack due to the material being positive.  The evil beings in question did not want people to have access to material that could aid their development.

The conventional Christian response would probably be some variation of b) here.  Mine would speculatively either be a combination of a) and b), or d) on its own.
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #28 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 9:22pm
 
[All quotations drawn from "People of the Lie."] 

Dear Petrus,

You have an excellent grasp of the issues raised by the apparenrtly demonic attack on Johanna.  My only quibble is your understandable vacilation between options (d) alone and a combination of (a) and (b).  What I didn't report was the fact that, though the entity Hermanito performed many marvellous psychic surgeries, a few later surgical procedures failed to work and caused unspeakable pain and injury.  With that additional information, you would probably agree with me that some combination of (a) and b) seems most likely:

(a) The demons aren't really that smart.
(b) The demons are so completely chaotic that their behavior is incapable of following a coherent plan.

Your line of questioniing implicitly solicits a clearer explanation of the nature of evil and the demonic.  Malachi Martin believes that no more than 1 in every 100 exorcisms performed by Charismatic Protestant ministers involves the genuinely demonic.  Peck reports that when he put out the word that he wanted to witness exorcisms,
"Referrals trickled in.  The first two cases turned out to be suffering from standard psychiatric disorders, as I had suspected, and I began making marks on my scientific pistol (183)."  But then he encountered 2 genuine cases which  reinforced his journey from "a vague identification with Buddhist and Islmaic mysticism" to a strong Christian faith:

"In both cases the major distinction in differential diagnosis was between possession and multiple personality disorder...In multiple personality disorder the core personality is vitually always unaware of the existence of the secondary personalities--al least until close to the very end of  prolonged successful treatment.  In these 2 cases, however, both patients were either aware from the beginning or were readily made aware...that part [of them now] had a distinct and alien personality ...The second differentiation is that...in multiple personality disorders the secondary personality may play the role of the `whore' or the `aggressive one' or the `independent one'...It has never been reported to my knowledge as frankly evil [192-193]."

You rightly ask, "If the demons' purpose was to use her to deceive others, why would they want to do that [terrorize Johanna.]"  My banal reply is that by the time of this attack, Johanna was already being discipled by evangelical Christians she respected.  She was aware  by then of the entity Hermanito's intolerance of her powerful new protective spirit, the Holy Spirit.   Her new Bible tutors would certainly have alerted her to the biblical warnings about mediumship.  The demons may have attacked in the certainty that her return to her career as a medium was now inconceivable.

Though this explanation is part of truth, you are right, I think, to point to some combination of (a) and (b) as even more germane.  Peck would agree:

"Although it has real power, Satan also has glaring weaknesses--the same weaknesses that caused its banishment from heaven.  Martin noted that exorcisms can reveal not only extraordinary demonic brilliance but also extraordinary demonic stupidity.  My observations confirm this.  Were it not for its extraordinary pride and narcissism, Satan would probably not reveal itself at all.  Its pride overcomes its intelligence, so that the demon of deceit is also a showoff.  If it had been thoroughly clever, it would have left the two patients long before their exorcisms.  But it could not allow itself to lose...so in both cases it hung in there until the bitter end--with the result that I and others today now know its reality (208)."

To underline Petrus's point it is useful here to delineate all 4 characteristics of evil, psychologically conceived as "malignant narcissism:"

(1) "consistent destructive scapegoating behavior, which often is quite subtle
(2) excessive, albeit usually covert intolerance of criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury
(3) pronounced concern with a public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a stability of life-style but also to a pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings and vengeful motives
(4) intellectual deviousness, with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophrenic-like disturbance of thinking in time of stress (129)."

The genius of the demonic is most evident in its manifestion of (1) and (4) and its stupidity in its manifestation of (2) and (3).  Its wildly chaotic behavior is implicit in  the schizophreniclike outbursts in times of stress.  Peck finds (1)-(4) in individual evil, group evil, and pessession cases.

In the presence of human or demonic evil, says Peck, the therapist or exorcist experiences confusion and revulsion--confusion because evil cleverly blends truth with error and revulsion because discerning people sense the evil energy even if they are not yet willing to label it as such.  Demons also promote confusion by exploiting the fact that they know the exorcist team better than they know themselves.  For example, Martin investigates an exorcism led by a saintly old priest who had been sexually active in his misspent youth.  As soon as he enters the room, the demon blurts out, "Well, if it isn't Peter the [bleep--a word that rhymes with Peter]!"  This unmentionable phrase was a former girlfriend's vulgar creation decades prior.  When the team heard it and saw the priest blanch, they were naturally curious about how it applied to him, and so the demon temporarily gained the initiative and control.

Your question about the apparent stupidity of demons also raises the question of whether they are nonhuman or discarnate humans.  This brings up the same question with respect to angelic beings in general.  Astral adepts are divided on this question.  Robert Bruce conceives of angels as nonhuman; Swedenborg conceives of them as discarnate humans.  In  the Bible "angel" simply means "messenger", and so, is no help in settling this question. 

But our general impression in Scripture that angels are nonhuman is in fact misleading.  The Bible recognizes various classes of angels (e.g. archangels, guardian angels, cherubim,  and seraphim)   But Acts 12 implies that discarnate humans can also be labelled angels.  Herod has just executed the apostle James, but Peter has been rescued from the same fate by an angelically induced earthquake.  After his jailbreak, Peter rushes to the house of Mark's mother where Christians are fervently praying for his deliverance.  When Peter knocks, Rhoda opens the door, freaks out, and leaves Peter to announce his presence.  The Christians initially don't believe her: "They said, `It must be his angel (Acts 12:15)."   This reaction implies their belief that the righteous dead can immediately become angels.  Since demons are a class of angels, then they too might include discarnate humans.  In the hereafter, souls are attracted to heavenly or hellish planes on the basis of the principle like attracts like.  Perhaps evil discarnate humans can function like a group soul which possesses the living as if it were a nonhuman demon.  Perhaps Satan is not a particular individual, but the personification of the united energies of evil humans cooperating for a destructive end.  I think we should focus on the dangers of Satan manifestations and leave the meatphysical questions open.

Berserk 




   

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Glen
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Re: Channeling Agendas: A Reply to Roger
Reply #29 - Feb 7th, 2005 at 11:59pm
 
I've only read two-thirds of the chapter so far, but find it quite fascinating.  I agree with Peck's conclusion that we're not dealing with multiple personailty disorder here, but I do have another possible explanation (offered by Seth): that people who suppress a major area of idealism within themselves (because they're convinced they can't express it freely or adequately) sometimes develop a sort of dual personality, much like Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde.  Maybe Dora remembers where he talks about this, referring to a hypothetical person as having two personalities (something like Antonio I and Antonio II, though that's not the name he used).

I like what he says about people being inherently stronger than the entities which supposedly possess them, love being the main healing element, and the people themselves being the ones to decide in the end to expel these alleged demons (that it's not the exorcist's, or even God's, decision, ultimately).

Very interesting.

Glen
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