I don't know whether someone can answer that question rationally without having factual knowledge of what the afterlife offers. Without some idea that the permanent version of the afterlife holds positive things in store for oneself, I would imagine that to put the permanent version of an afterlife on hold for some 'time' might be appealing.

However, the temporary version might also be of interest. It appears that they are different. Some people do not consider a near death experience as actual death. They hold actual death as exclusive to the experience of not reanimating the physical body.

So, an interesting question. I don't think I hold an opinion one way or another. I do, however, see that many people consider themselves to be better people after returning from a 'near death' experience. They describe themselves and others describe them as changed in a positive way.

For this reason alone, it seems that to have a near death experience might be considered extremely valuable. There is no telling what that experience contributes to the life thereafter.

Logic would have it that it might be more beneficial to have the near death experience rather than not. How do you see it?

What near death experiencers find out is just one piece of the puzzle. When you consider how all the pieces fit together, you can get an idea of how much NDEs are valid part of the answer. It helps if you have had your own nonphysical experiences.

Going by my nonphysical experiences, a wonderful future awaits me.

I would experience a prolonged pre-death non physical experience, if doing so in some way enabled me to make a positive contribution to this world.

Many near death experiences had to go through a lot after they died. They had to go through a difficult healing process. Therefore, in a way, they made a sacrifice for others, partly so they could share their knowledge.

This being the case, I'm not going to flush their sacrifices and contributions down the toilet, so I can seem more sophisticated than others. I believe it is spiritually evolved to having feelings of gratitude, appreciation and humility towards others. We are all part of the same oneness, so why not appreciate each other and benefit from each other? If it is okay to do things such as go to the store and buy food that was produced by others, then perhaps it is okay to benefit from others in other ways.

Regarding near death experiencers not having actually died, in a final sense, of course they didn't. They wouldn't be able to return and share information if they died in a complete way. Therefore, I don't believe it is fair to dismiss what they have to share, simply because they returned.

How about out of body explorers such as Bruce Moen, Robert Monroe, Emanuel Swedenborg and Jurgen Ziewe, since they returned to this world, would you dismiss what they have to say?

If you dismiss what NDErs and other non physical experiencers (including "viewers") have to say, then all you're left with is channelers. Going by what I've seen, not all channeled sources are trustworthy. Some--mostly the kind where a being doesn't speak through a person's body--seem the most trustworthy. A lot of what they say seems to agree with what NDErs and out of body explorers have found.

Recoverer, you said that going by your 'nonphysical experiences' you expect a wonderful future awaiting you after physical death. What has so encouraged you to come to that conclusion?

Recoverer 2 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 10:44am:


Citation? Names? Proof? Strong allegations require strong evidence.


Recoverer 2 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 10:44am:


Is here and now acceptable? You know, without the death part. Personally speaking, I find belief systems that require their adherents to die are kinda .... ewww. Doesn't make any difference if it's the Kindermord (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Ypres) or Jonestown. "Looks dangerous, you go first," (Indiana Jones) is my first response to anyone who tells me I need to die to experience a promise of something better.

To me, no difference exists between an agreement to partake in utopia as promised by Jim Jones, an agreement to lay down my life at the point of a spear for Alexander the Great, and an agreement of salvation through death courtesy of any religious belief system. I'm not really keen on death cults, myself, but to each their own. I personally don't care to find myself without a body to say: well, that was kind of dumb.

We are mortal and immortal: we are both / AND. Your mileage may vary.

Serious self-inquiry is an opportunity that presents itself when strong beliefs are exposed, such as may occur when listening to "one guy who is fairly well known" .... What if we are the creator of our own universe? What is it in us that rises in objection? What is the underlying belief that is showing itself? What in us is screaming: that can't be, it goes against everything I've been taught! What stake does that voice have in our reality? Why are we listening to it? Whose is it? I went to college! I am a member of a union! My name is Frank! They are only stories we tell ourselves.

As a friend said this weekend: "in your direct link with creation nothing is real unless you say so."

Recoverer 2 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:


Hi. Squinting hard to see where I wrote or implied such, or any need to "avoid". Uncertain how one may find I hold such to be "convenient." I trust what I wrote in just upthread is quite clear.

Albert, these are grave and personal allegations in a public forum.

Yes, I absolutely state: "Which is why we go look for ourselves, rather than relying on the accounts of others."

I've never said otherwise. Go look for yourself. Which I am given to understand is the purpose of Afterlife Knowledge - to explore for ourselves, and to find what we find without regard to any preconceived notions.

Recoverer 2 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 6:28pm:

Reading a book about New York City in no way equates to visiting or living in New York City. A beautifully written book about the charms of New York may inspire me to visit. Bravo. There are also books about the gritty side that is also New York and I may be like: I'm going to Hawaii.

The only way to tell what New York is about is to go there myself. I will see what I see and there may be very few matches between what I read and what I find.

Disrespect is telling me personally who you believe I should be and how I should comport myself. No disrespect intended.

Recoverer 2 wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 8:07pm:



Where I hail from it's considered rather rude and intrusive to "help" when help is neither requested nor required. To topic, "Some near death experiences speak of how they are anxious to return to the spirit world because life is much better there than here."

And I reply in a couple installments: 1) go look for yourself - don't take anyone's word for it; 2) how about if you (general you) could find what you seek here and now; 3) I'm personally not down with agreeing to die to verify someone else's belief systems ("very dangerous, you go first"); and 4) we are both mortal and immortal, we are both / and. And, by implication, we are here because we choose to be here. You (general you) may beg to differ on that but none is keeping you here. We are free to go any time we choose.

None of this is a denial of anyone's belief systems or experiences. I do my work every single day. I know the turf, and the turf beyond the beyond. It's what I do. At no point do I made any suggestion of what you (specific you) or anyone else should expect to find beyond 3D. No disrespect implied.

Vicky:

What I said isn't based on this thread alone. In this case I feel that I need to go by my experience, and going by what I've read on various threads, Morrighan has a tendency to dismiss what other people have experienced. I believe that God and those who work with him have set up things so that people can learn from each other, including NDErs, and when somebody speaks with a tone that seems to be dismissive of what NDErs have to share, out of my love for God and all that is good, I feel the need to speak up. If Morrighan finds this insulting in some way, perhaps she shouldn't be so quick to be dismissive of what others have experienced, on a public forum.

Certainly our own experiences are the most key, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from what other people have experienced. I have found that when I read about the experiences of others, I can get a feeling for what they experienced.  I have read of near death experiencers finding it beneficial to hear or read about what other NDErs have experienced. Eben Alexander found it helpful to read about what other NDErs have experienced.

Morrighan:

When I said I was trying to be helpful, I didn't have only you in mind. I also had in mind other people that might benefit by some of the things I said on this thread. Consider the part where I spoke of how Eben Alexander speaks of God. I believe this is no small matter. In fact, it is probably the most important thing people can know. That there is a God creator who exists as a very definite personality, while also being the source of everything. Such a key point can play a very significant role in a person's spiritual life. One of the great things some NDErs  have done, is let people know about the existence of God. Therefore, when you seemed to minimize their importance by your "only personal experience matters" talk, I felt inspired to share Eben Alexander's gracious and giving attempt to let people know about his experience with God. Despite all of my experiences, I humbly thank Eben for sharing his experience with God.

Wow! This is an afterlife forum. Is it really surprising that a person refers to NDEs, when explaining "one" of the reasons he believes that a wonderful existence awaits him in the afterlife? Sometimes good news is good news. I guess this is the sort of thing that can happen, when a person is overly opposed to benefit by hearing what others have experienced.

I find much wisdom in the posts of many who visit here.  I surely hope that I have absorbed some of it over time. My thoughts are, at the moment, that sometimes when a really great idea or experience is shared, the substance of it can become less clear when personal opinions of the speaker about others are added into the mix.

It is natural, of course, and quite human.

One could remove the passing references to other people and disagreements over this and that (remove the judgmental statements or assumptions about others) and be quite wowed by the wisdom and maturity of some speakers here.

It is difficult to be a speaker of your own truth. Other people will misunderstand you sometimes. It is a given.

But, this post is mainly in gratitude. For all the amazing people who have come and gone. Whatever they thought or did, it is good to respect that each is an individual, worth remembering and protecting, wherever we can do it.

Just for my curriosity. They invited you because they know you personally in physical world what you do and what skills you have or they know about your work from nonphysical realms and decided that you were a good canditate for that seminar?

seagullresting wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 6:12pm:


This is so true for me, even within my own family (biological family).  Not just about my spiritual beliefs but about anything.  My family are people who like things to be superficial.  It's easier for them. 

Quote:


This is very nice.  I like that you say this, and I agree.

Vicky

Imagine a thank you is in order, Vicky, but it's not about me. Informing the field of what goes on right now where few think to look is more the name of the game.

Which opens this opportunity to illustrate multidimensionality using the astral travel facilitator as a model to explain the phenomenon. This is pertinent to afterlife knowledge as those of us who explore beyond the physical come to personally experience. We are multidimensional field beings being multidimensional fields.

The astral travel symposium facilitator mentioned above goes in "Real Life" by the name P--- "P" is close enough; it is accurate; but the first letter is a translation of his name in his native tongue into English. I will say P for his name in this illustration because the work he does is undertaken far away from the public eye. That's polite talk for "none of your business."

Now it so happens I see him "In Real Life" (physically) now and again on multiple continents, for our trajectories sometimes cross owing to our own multidimensioal aspects.

Physically he is of very slight build with short, curly blond hair. He presents as what I call "smart casual." He wears what appear to be expensive soft leather moccasins, and, typically, creased white pants. He moves most purposefully, and there is a hint of a professionally trained dancer's gait. He wears a ring of intertwined gold and silver. We are informed it is one of only a few created for a specific purpose, and no more of them will be created. (A ring I wear was created by the same people for a highly specific purpose. It is one-of-a-kind and no more like it will be created. It's due for an upgrade my next visit.)

In short, P does not, to the casual eye, appear in any way imposing. That is his 3D aspect.

His presence in his own multidimensional self presents a paradox. His physical presence of apparent harmlessness is offset by his greater Being that resides in his 3D avatar we call a body.

To the sensitive, his greater being transmits a signal of grave danger to anyone who comes too close. Those who do not hold conscious awareness of these areas react to his presence by moving the heck out of the way. "Avoid" is what the bodies of standard grade humans understand. The signal hits well below the conscious level. I might even say it stimulates a primitive function on a DNA level. The body knows that to come closer is done at one's personal peril. People may literally jump back to get out of his way without any conscious awareness of why. He does broadcast this warning signal clearly and everybody - consciously aware or not - responds to it. It's who he is. In fact, his signal precedes his movement in time and space so that people avoid his intended path before he arrives - they clear out before he presences himself on his trajectory. None of this is deep magic. If you are rowing a dingy you know to get out of the way of an approaching cruise liner. Field beings have a wide field and know to move out of the way to avoid collision.

Of course people who know who P is, why he is in their field and what he is doing do not have the same reaction to his presence. Those who share his landscape are supposed to be there by consensual agreement.

It is most emphatically not to suggest in any way that P is unaligned with Creation. P is who he is because he is who he is. When we are dealing with multidimensionality, it is wise to abandon human constructs of what "should be".

A crocodile, for example, does not care about your (general your) favorite saints and guardian angels. The crocodile's beingness is in crocodile space, not human space. The crocodile is an equal in Creation, has a place and purpose in Creation, and is a crocodile in BEING. If you (general you) ignore all the signs that you are trespassing in the crocodile's domain, you stand a good chance of an immediate express ride to the afterlife. (Some, who view the "afterlife" as preferable to "earth life" may consider this a good thing, but our bodies don't much like it.)  None of which makes the crocodile in any way evil. A crocodile is a crocodile. And P is who he is. Should you encounter P and cross swords with him for any reason, you have done so despite all warnings and good luck to you. (P is not a crocodile, in case you wondered. P is a spiritual being embodied as a human. And he certainly knows who  he is.)

To those who hold sensitivity of fields, P is a walking example of both / and. Physically, P appears to be mostly harmless. In P's multidimensionality P is clearly capable of conducting himself properly in any situation.

The point, for those who read this far, is we all hold aspects that are not visible and are understood nonetheless. We become aware of our own multidimensality when we remember who we are. Like Vicky says, her NDE renewed awareness of what she already knew.

And I draw this illustration of P as a template to be integrated into our awareness as we begin to remember who we are in the pursuit of afterlife knowledge.

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