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Robert Monroe's determinism. No free will? (Read 4557 times)
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Robert Monroe's determinism. No free will?
May 9th, 2017 at 2:10pm
In his third book, Ultimate journey, Robert Monroe describes some encounters that make it all seem that our universe is deterministic and whatever you do, think or feel, nothing will change the course of events that are already laid down for you from the beginning. For all of us for that matter. Here are some key excerpts:
    Chapter 9. The Hard Way. "... I felt a signal vibrating within me. I followed it and came upon a scene I remembered well. There was someone beside me—it felt like a brother. He seemed nervous. I was pointing at the figure of a man lying face down in the middle of a dusty road. He was a youngster, no more than eighteen. A battle was going on all around him. ... The eighteen-year-old, who wore a wide belt, was struggling to pull himself up. The problem was the spear which was holding him down. The spear had penetrated his back, gone all the way through his body and deep into the dirt of the road. ... I turned to the man beside me. He was in obvious pain. I asked him if he understood. He nodded, then turned and moved away, and disappeared. ..."

And another from the same 9th chapter:
    "... Below me appeared a small building, with a hole in the side of it and wide steps leading down inside. I walked carefully down the steps because the signal was coming from inside. There lying on a cot was a man thrashing around wildly. Hanging on to his back were two children, about four or five years old, riding out the bucking and pitching. The man was sobbing in fear and desperately trying to pull the two little ones off his shoulders. I reached over and gently pulled the children away from him. He lay back in the cot whimpering in relief. I looked down at the children lying quietly, one cradled in each of my arms. They were not children but cats, pets I remembered well. Cats in an OB state! ..."

After those events, Monroe concludes (in the same 9th chapter):
    "... So I was the one who was helping me. Also I was the young warrior dying in the dust—that was the only way it made sense. That meant, therefore, there were three versions of me at the same place at the same time! In the second event from years back, I had been the one screaming for help, trying to dislodge the little demons who wanted to ride me like a horse, who seemed to own me. And then a serious-looking man came down the steps and took them off me, held them in his arms, and suddenly disappeared. ... I had come to help when I screamed for it! This, I thought, was a little less complicated—there were only two of me present!"

Here's the cherry on the cake.
    Chapter 14. The Sum and the Parts. "...
    (Monroe) Tell me, who was it that I talked with, who was so patient with me and knew the answers? Why are you laughing!
    (His I-There) Who knows you best of all?
    (Monroe) I . . . me? I was talking with myself? But what about the time factor?
    (His I-There) You were talking with yourself—who else knew you better?
    (Monroe) So that's why the meetings ended! I ran out of information. And as the INSPEC I knew better!
    (His I-There) That was so. The process served a valuable and necessary function at that stage in your growth.
    (Monroe) It did indeed. But I don't remember playing the INSPEC role.
    (His I-There) No. You have not done it yet.
    (Monroe) So I do complete my present life?
    (His I-There) Of course. Remember, when you return you will have to take on all those INSPEC meetings with yourself. Now, do you need anything else? ..."

By "yourself" doesn't mean one of his personalities but Monroe's personality itself, what he called I-Here.

All that tells us, or Monroe tells us, that everything is already predetermined, no free will. I'm not gonna delve into time-travel paradoxes here for the sake of brevity... maybe later in posts. Let's say Monroe decided not to answer those calls, ignore them and continue exploring at his own agency or maybe returning to his physical body. But that can't happen since in order for him to be where/when he is, he has to help himself, otherwise he can't exist in that particular scenario 'cause not helping himself would have realized a different timeline with different circumstances and different Robert Monroe. He's also destined to play the role of INSPEC, to help the past himself, exactly how it was played out before for him. And where is that Monroe in the past? Is it a different entity? etc... Well, I promised not to delve into the paradoxes... yet.
So what should we think about Monroe's experiences; should we take them or leave them? Thoughts, comments, suggestions.
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Re: Robert Monroe's determinism. No free will?
Reply #1 - May 9th, 2017 at 4:18pm
I think there are two main ways of perceiving and experiencing the physical dimension.

   There is the physical dimension way of linear time where past moves to present and then to future present, as if it's a straight line from one point *------------------------> onward.

   There is another way of perceiving physical experiences, which is from outside of this dimension.  Time becomes more and more relative and the perception changes, the "farther away" in a vibration sense, one becomes from the physical level. 

   If you can phase into the Source/pure Love Consciousness, the most expanded, fastest vibratory level/experience/perception there is, which has always existed, then do you perceive physical reality in a much, much, much more inclusive and "all" sense--meaning the lines, boundaries and separations between past, present and future become blurred. 

   When Source/The Creator moved and set all this into motion, at that very moment, ALL possibilities and probabilities were visioned by Itself. 

  But it wasn't until portions of Itself, us as both Spirits/Expanded/I-There selves and later as Souls/probes, started to make actual choices within the flow/movement of creation/reality, that The Creator could know which possibilities became more and more close to probabilities. 

  The use of one's spiritual Will is what leads one to a certain future, from a more limited, separative viewpoint, that of the slow vibratory. 

   Probabilities are call probabilities for a good reason--they are probable.  ; ) 

   Freewill is a bit of misnomer in the sense that it's not completely free in a completely random and chaotic sense.  As a Soul and a Spirit start to phase more and more towards their Origins, their Creator, their Center, their Source--what they truly are and always have been....

  They start to choose more and more in wiser ways, according to Plans pre-set up by a combo of their I-There, with various Completed or fully Source Realized Individuals (the "Elders" that run the "Life Reviews" that so many different sources touch on). 

  Monroe was a Soul, a probe, an expression from a Spirit/I-There that is nearing completion.  Monroe as an individualized Soul/probe, himself, was nearing completion in his human life. 

   Through a combination of his Spirit/I-there influence and his own individuated Soul's will, he began to stick more and more to a more Expanded plan. 

   And thus, from an Expanded viewpoint, closer to that of Source, could he experience his "future self" interacting with and influencing his "past self", according to the strongest probability streams. 

   Perhaps in a sense, it's all being constantly updated, according to how we use our Will and then our experience and perception of past, present and future then changes to reflect the inner changes? 

   This kind of experience and perception does not happen as much with Souls and Spirit selves that are much less mature and not as intune with their Origins.  They use their Will in more random or chaotic ways and don't tend to stick to pre-physical life plans, etc. 

  Hence, determining future probabilities for such tends to be more tricky. They are not on as set paths--they flit and jump more, until they finally start to bring their little will, in alignment with the Will of the purely Creative Forces (Source and the Co-Creator level, our Origins). 

   These things are mighty, mighty hard to put into and explain in words.  The human mind and language is not well equipped to understand the relativity and yet at the same time, absolute properties of time, or rather Reality, and how and why we perceive and experience the way we do. 

   But yes, future probable Monroe helped past Monroe, according to the strongest probabilities, and the pre life-plan that was put into place before his Soul connected to a body/life pattern.   

  It doesn't mean that everything is pre determined, but that wise, older Souls tend to stick more to plans and tend to use their will, both on a Soul and on a Spirit level, in more creative/constructive ways sticking more to such plans. Monroe and his larger Spirit/Expanded Self, has long been a Helper type. 

  He came to help in the grand retrieval process here. Part of his specific plan, involved having a certain amount of perception opened up to him during his life as a human.  More than usual. 

  Yet, Monroe didn't achieve completion while a human.  He didn't always use his Will in a constructive way and didn't always allow himself to be led by the purely Creative Forces. He did however, stick to the major parts of the plan set up for him, and helped a lot of people both directly and indirectly.  This led to a lot of growth for both his Soul and his Spirit. 

  The more we retrieve, the more we help out the Whole, the closer we come (vibrationally) in a consciousness sense, to full attunement to Source--our Home of Homes, where we truly belong and the more mature of us, desire to be operating from.

   Monroe while a Helper, should not be placed on any kind of pedestal though.  By turning our eyes and focus towards those who have fully completed the process, can we as individuals be most be helped.  Individuals such as "He/She" and the like. 

They are already fully outside the bag so to speak. The bag being distorted, limited perception and experience.  There are none such in Source!   

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Re: Robert Monroe's determinism. No free will?
Reply #2 - May 9th, 2017 at 5:54pm
To briefly sum it up, there seems to be both elements of determinism (related to plans behind the scenes so to speak) and spiritual Will to choose different than plans or the desires of the Soul and Spirit levels of self, which interact in complex, relative, changing ways. 

  Sometimes when a Soul really goes off plans after they connect to a human, the Soul and/or Spirit level of self, will decide to remove them e.g. they will die from some reason or another. But this is for Spirits and/or Souls that have some maturity.
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Re: Robert Monroe's determinism. No free will?
Reply #3 - May 9th, 2017 at 7:15pm
Hello Astroneer:

I read Robert's book Ultimate Journey and liked it a lot. Free will is something I thought about a lot, and I definitely believe we have it. Our psychological conditioning and corresponding attachments and beliefs can make it difficult to use our free will in a wise way.

A key is to consider closely what is your experience "right now." If you observe now closely you'll see that even if thoughts are arising within your mind, you have the ability to think freely. Since we always exist now, regardless of whether something such as simultaneous time exists, we are able to choose now.

If one views simultaneous time like a painting where many  things occur, on each portion of the painting that represents a choice, a choice could be made during that "now."

Even if we could experience all of time instantaneously, we would still exist now repeatedly.

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