Conversation Board - What is Truth or Absolute Truth?

Alan McDougall Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 194 Johannesburg South Africa Gender:	What is Truth or Absolute Truth? May 15^th, 2016 at 11:24pm What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #1 - May 17^th, 2016 at 12:29am

Does no one on this forum know what absolute truth really is?

At least give it a shot at answering this very basic question that should be of prime importance to all human beings if we are to learn to avoid conflict, pain, and suffering in the world.

For instance, can one find absolute truth in religion or can one find it in philosophy or elsewhere?

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heisenberg69

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #2 - May 17^th, 2016 at 11:38am

A very interesting but challenging question. If we define absolute truth as something which is true regardless of time and place then that rules out most things we normally regard as true.For example the Mosaic law injunction 'Thou shall not kill' would seem pretty absolute but of course many societies have decided to kill in certain circumstances is perfectly acceptable: in war, against certain criminals, the terminally sick, the unwanted unborn etc . so it cannot be an absolute rule or truth.

I would suggest that we cannot prove an absolute truth scientifically or mathematically (aside from tautologies such as 2+2=4). Also any written word (such as the Bible) was written by a specific people at a specific place, often with a specific agenda. So can anything pass the absolute truth test? One candidate I would put forward as an absolute truth is that 'We are all One'.But if we look at the world that would seem that is far from the case at an everyday level with all the fighting and warfare going on. So I would suggest that 'absolute truths' can only be known intuitively at some deep level, not intellectually known, particularly when one experiences an expanded state of consciousness such as an NDE or OBE. Not a very satisfactory answer I know but the best I can come up on the hoof!

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Bruce Moen

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #3 - May 17^th, 2016 at 3:09pm

Welcome back, Alan,

Just so everyone else knows Alan asked if he could rejoin the Forums after he had closed his account. I explained I had no problem with that as long as he abides by the Posting Guidelines.

Alan McDougall wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 11:24pm:

What is Truth or Absolute Truth?

Interesting question. For my part I'd say experience has taught me that whatever the absolute truth is, I will never in this lifetime observe it or know it. Why, you might ask? Because I know that my perception of everything is colored, distorted, filtered and blocked by the vast collection of all the beliefs I hold. I understand that if one is unaware of wearing colored glasses their effects are undetectable.

So, for me, absolute Truth may exist, but me and my smudged-up, scratched, bandpass filtered, colored glasses will never clearly perceive it.

Bruce

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rondele Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 181 Virginia Gender:	Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth? Reply #4 - May 17^th, 2016 at 3:30pm I'm tempted to say that pure, unconditional love might be the absolute truth, from which all of creation derived. PUL as a state of being, as distinguished from any kind of human emotion. God? R
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seagull Ex Member	Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth? Reply #5 - May 17^th, 2016 at 5:32pm This question is not one which can be answered in words. It must be discovered within one's self.
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rondele Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 181 Virginia Gender:	Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth? Reply #6 - May 17^th, 2016 at 6:46pm On the other hand, there might not be an absolute truth. The word absolute implies fixed. Maybe everything is in constant flux. Even the universe itself is said to be contracting. Maybe change is the absolute truth. Or then again, maybe not. As seagull says, it's probably inexpressible. R
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Gman

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #7 - May 17^th, 2016 at 8:17pm

rondele wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 6:46pm:

On the other hand, there might not be an absolute truth. The word absolute implies fixed. Maybe everything is in constant flux. Even the universe itself is said to be contracting.

Maybe change is the absolute truth. Or then again, maybe not. As seagull says, it's probably inexpressible.

R

Hello Rondele. Your quote, ""Even the universe itself is said to be contracting."....I viewed a documentary a few years ago that said the universe is expanding, and that some time in the future it will begin contracting back on itself someday. I think they were talking about millions or billions of years time when this contraction would start. Here is a link to support my post on this matter. http://www.space.com/52-the-expanding-universe-from-the-big-bang-to-today.html

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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #8 - May 18^th, 2016 at 4:10am

Bruce Moen wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 3:09pm:

Welcome back, Alan,

Just so everyone else knows Alan asked if he could rejoin the Forums after he had closed his account. I explained I had no problem with that as long as he abides by the Posting Guidelines.

Alan McDougall wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 11:24pm:

What is Truth or Absolute Truth?

Interesting question. For my part I'd say experience has taught me that whatever the absolute truth is, I will never in this lifetime observe it or know it. Why, you might ask? Because I know that my perception of everything is colored, distorted, filtered and blocked by the vast collection of all the beliefs I hold. I understand that if one is unaware of wearing colored glasses their effects are undetectable.

So, for me, absolute Truth may exist, but me and my smudged-up, scratched, bandpass filtered, colored glasses will never clearly perceive it.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

"That is the best most honest post on this issue of absolute truth, that I have had the pleasure to read, on how it relates to a normal human being."
We all fib at times, even if we do not like to admit is, even the smallest exaggeration separated us from absolute truth.
Thus, in my opinion absolute truth exist outside of the human mind and can only be a reality in the divine mind of Almighty God, and by this I do not mean the God of the fundamentalist, which I dislike as man- made.
Thus to find this "Absolute Truth" a person should meditate on the Divine Mind and ask him to come into his/hers inner spiritual heart "which should become the 'Temple of God"
If a person is at peace with oneself, then I think they are in tune as far as possible that a mere mortal can be , to have 'Absolute Truth reigning in their hearts.
With "Love the Love with the upper case "L' coming out of heaven into the hearts of man, then in that person 'Absolute Truth" will become as real as possible in the lives of fallible people.
Only after death when we merge with the Divine, will we really "Know" what absolute truth and absolute perfect love are in total reality.

However, that fact should not stop us all trying to obtain these most important attributes while still in this physical world, clothed in our mortal bodies!
Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #9 - May 18^th, 2016 at 4:27am

heisenberg69 wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 11:38am:

A very interesting but challenging question. If we define absolute truth as something which is true regardless of time and place then that rules out most things we normally regard as true.For example the Mosaic law injunction 'Thou shall not kill' would seem pretty absolute but of course many societies have decided to kill in certain circumstances is perfectly acceptable: in war, against certain criminals, the terminally sick, the unwanted unborn etc . so it cannot be an absolute rule or truth.

I would suggest that we cannot prove an absolute truth scientifically or mathematically (aside from tautologies such as 2+2=4). Also any written word (such as the Bible) was written by a specific people at a specific place, often with a specific agenda. So can anything pass the absolute truth test? One candidate I would put forward as an absolute truth is that 'We are all One'.But if we look at the world that would seem that is far from the case at an everyday level with all the fighting and warfare going on. So I would suggest that 'absolute truths' can only be known intuitively at some deep level, not intellectually known, particularly when one experiences an expanded state of consciousness such as an NDE or OBE. Not a very satisfactory answer I know but the best I can come up on the hoof!

The "Thou Shalt not kill" in the Mosaic Law was means, it that it is forbidden for one to "Murder another human being" However, at times to kill another person would be permitted, such as saving the lives of beloved family members from real murderers!

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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The truth remains the truth, no matter what we think the truth is, the truth is the truth regardless

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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #10 - May 18^th, 2016 at 4:37am

Gman wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 8:17pm:

rondele wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 6:46pm:

On the other hand, there might not be an absolute truth. The word absolute implies fixed. Maybe everything is in constant flux. Even the universe itself is said to be contracting.

Maybe change is the absolute truth. Or then again, maybe not. As seagull says, it's probably inexpressible.

R

Hello Rondele. Your quote, ""Even the universe itself is said to be contracting."....I viewed a documentary a few years ago that said the universe is expanding, and that some time in the future it will begin contracting back on itself someday. I think they were talking about millions or billions of years time when this contraction would start. Here is a link to support my post on this matter. http://www.space.com/52-the-expanding-universe-from-the-big-bang-to-today.html

The very latest fact on the expansion of the universe is that it is accelerating faster and faster and will never fall back on itself. This expansion is being driven by that strange force 'Dark Energy.

As it continues to expand its state of entropy increases until the entropic state of the universe become infinite and it reaches heat death in an unimaginably far distant future that we do not need to worry about at all.

Sadly,our physical universe is finite it had a beginning at the big bang and will have an end when it reaches absolute zero and total dark emptiness trillions of years from now.

Blessings

Alan

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Chrisagain

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #11 - May 18^th, 2016 at 5:10am

At least, that`s the currently favored thesis. I`m frankly not convinced that, in say 500 years, people will still think the same. Science is evolving too much. In the end, I often feel like Sokrates who supposedly said "I know that I know nothing". The more I know, the less certain I become, which is in a way strangely liberating. I guess that is what Heisenberg meant when he said (translated by me, so maybe not quoted entirely correctly) "The first drinks out of the cup of science bring atheism, but at the bottom of the cup, there is God." For God, I would substitute spirituality.

As to your original question, Alan, I find myself unable to answer it since, for me, there is already an issue with defining what "truth" is. Do you mean "truth" as in "scientifically proven fact"? Do you mean "truth" as in "something most philosophies agree on"? Do you mean "truth" as in "something our society currently agrees on"? Or do you mean "truth" as in "something that is absolutely a fact outside of any society and throughout the multiverse no matter what sentient being(s) agree on"? If the latter, then I have to answer I don`t know. Although I lean to believing that truly loving as much as possible is the correct way to live and evolve is an absolute truth in the latter sense.

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heisenberg69

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #12 - May 18^th, 2016 at 10:48am

Alan McDougall wrote on May 18^th, 2016 at 4:27am:

heisenberg69 wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 11:38am:

A very interesting but challenging question. If we define absolute truth as something which is true regardless of time and place then that rules out most things we normally regard as true.For example the Mosaic law injunction 'Thou shall not kill' would seem pretty absolute but of course many societies have decided to kill in certain circumstances is perfectly acceptable: in war, against certain criminals, the terminally sick, the unwanted unborn etc . so it cannot be an absolute rule or truth.

I would suggest that we cannot prove an absolute truth scientifically or mathematically (aside from tautologies such as 2+2=4). Also any written word (such as the Bible) was written by a specific people at a specific place, often with a specific agenda. So can anything pass the absolute truth test? One candidate I would put forward as an absolute truth is that 'We are all One'.But if we look at the world that would seem that is far from the case at an everyday level with all the fighting and warfare going on. So I would suggest that 'absolute truths' can only be known intuitively at some deep level, not intellectually known, particularly when one experiences an expanded state of consciousness such as an NDE or OBE. Not a very satisfactory answer I know but the best I can come up on the hoof!

The "Thou Shalt not kill" in the Mosaic Law was means, it that it is forbidden for one to "Murder another human being" However, at times to kill another person would be permitted, such as saving the lives of beloved family members from real murderers!

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

Hi Alan,
interesting though philosophical questions are I did'nt mean to introduce a debate when or when it is or is'nt acceptable to kill another human being I only meant it as an example of something which we may normally think of as an absolute rule but is'nt because every society has their own (evolving) ideas on that.Good to see you back contributing.

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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #13 - May 18^th, 2016 at 2:44pm

Chrisagain wrote on May 18^th, 2016 at 5:10am:

At least, that`s the currently favored thesis. I`m frankly not convinced that, in say 500 years, people will still think the same. Science is evolving too much. In the end, I often feel like Sokrates who supposedly said "I know that I know nothing". The more I know, the less certain I become, which is in a way strangely liberating. I guess that is what Heisenberg meant when he said (translated by me, so maybe not quoted entirely correctly) "The first drinks out of the cup of science bring atheism, but at the bottom of the cup, there is God." For God, I would substitute spirituality.

As to your original question, Alan, I find myself unable to answer it since, for me, there is already an issue with defining what "truth" is. Do you mean "truth" as in "scientifically proven fact"? Do you mean "truth" as in "something most philosophies agree on"? Do you mean "truth" as in "something our society currently agrees on"? Or do you mean "truth" as in "something that is absolutely a fact outside of any society and throughout the multiverse no matter what sentient being(s) agree on"? If the latter, then I have to answer I don`t know. Although I lean to believing that truly loving as much as possible is the correct way to live and evolve is an absolute truth in the latter sense.

An example of the type of absolute truth I was trying to get at "It is absolutely true" that it is always wrong to sexually molest a little child"!

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Alan McDougall

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Re: What is Truth or Absolute Truth?
Reply #14 - May 18^th, 2016 at 2:57pm

heisenberg69 wrote on May 18^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Alan McDougall wrote on May 18^th, 2016 at 4:27am:

heisenberg69 wrote on May 17^th, 2016 at 11:38am:

A very interesting but challenging question. If we define absolute truth as something which is true regardless of time and place then that rules out most things we normally regard as true.For example the Mosaic law injunction 'Thou shall not kill' would seem pretty absolute but of course many societies have decided to kill in certain circumstances is perfectly acceptable: in war, against certain criminals, the terminally sick, the unwanted unborn etc . so it cannot be an absolute rule or truth.

I would suggest that we cannot prove an absolute truth scientifically or mathematically (aside from tautologies such as 2+2=4). Also any written word (such as the Bible) was written by a specific people at a specific place, often with a specific agenda. So can anything pass the absolute truth test? One candidate I would put forward as an absolute truth is that 'We are all One'.But if we look at the world that would seem that is far from the case at an everyday level with all the fighting and warfare going on. So I would suggest that 'absolute truths' can only be known intuitively at some deep level, not intellectually known, particularly when one experiences an expanded state of consciousness such as an NDE or OBE. Not a very satisfactory answer I know but the best I can come up on the hoof!

The "Thou Shalt not kill" in the Mosaic Law was means, it that it is forbidden for one to "Murder another human being" However, at times to kill another person would be permitted, such as saving the lives of beloved family members from real murderers!

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

Hi Alan,
interesting though philosophical questions are I did'nt mean to introduce a debate when or when it is or is'nt acceptable to kill another human being I only meant it as an example of something which we may normally think of as an absolute rule but is'nt because every society has their own (evolving) ideas on that.Good to see you back contributing.

I think I know what you mean. Some New Guinea wives feel that it is right and true to eat the brains of their dead husbands, in order to keep himself and his memory inside her.

However, this practice had led to many of the wife's going insane after consuming their husbands brains , not for any ethical or moral reason, but because of some biological pollution of her body. Thus, maybe even nature seems to work against this type of practice?

I am not making this up, if you doubt what I say just Google it to confirm?

For us of western culture the very idea makes us want to vomit , unless we are an insane serial killer or cannibal like Jeffrey Darhmer.

aLAN

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The truth remains the truth, no matter what we think the truth is, the truth is the truth regardless

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