Alright this is something which I find somewhat disturbing about the Monroe books, and it is something I vaguely worry about.


In Ultimate Journey, Monroe talks about the final journey he makes for his I-There, "upward" and out of the Earth Life System, to the aperture exiting the system "out of the dream".

As he journeys upward he makes contact with (or is contacted by) an entity claiming to be God and which tries to make Monroe think he's being drowned and tortured by this being.

To which Monroe responds that he knows what he's experiencing is not real and he can be blown apart into millions of pieces and reform again unharmed. The entity says something to the effect of "You are useless to me, the Lord your God!" and it finally leaves Monroe alone to continue his journey "upward".


The question which arises to me is how this encounter got initiated in the first place. Monroe was in effect "leaving the system", and it may be that this God-bully noticed this and stepped in to literally try to prevent Monroe from leaving.

A second question is what would have happened if Monroe failed to have the confidence in himself to know that this God-bully had no power over him. What would (could) the being have "done" to Monroe to prevent his leaving the system?


Apparently Focus 27 is a place where religiously-neutral humans are permitted to exist and learn about the nonphysical state, and apparently the one rule is that they may not impose their will upon others while there.

What keeps the likes of the God-bully from going to Focus 27, and mucking up the place and terrorizing the newly-dead with its fear-mongering and power-tripping?


I realize it's probably not a good thing to dwell on this, but in some ways I worry that my own thinking about this could draw the God-bully to myself, when I myself am not sure what is real or not in the nonphysical, and I lack the self-assurance that Monroe possessed at the time of his contact with the God-bully.

There is the idea of calling for help from other greater beings to help protect oneself (from your own self-destructive thinking?), and I suppose it might be possible to call directly upon Monroe or one of his I-There friends for help regarding this since he/they already have experience dealing with the God-bully.

But Bob's a celebrity of sorts in the nonphysical and I don't know if it's appropriate to bother him or his friends with this.


Also I apologize if all I'm doing is spreading my own fears of this to others on this discussion forum.

I do not seem to be able to "project love" like some people talk about on here, so I don't know how I'd be able to do that to break through my own fears regarding this.

Robert Monroe died of pneumonia in 1995.  I didn't think much of it at the time.  But that changed when I stumbled on to pp. 208-209 in his last book, "Ultimate Journey."  In the context, Monroe has just resolved to seek out his "source."  Then he is accosted by "God" [?] in the same OBE:

"What!  Blinding energy--I cannot move!
A voice in my head--a cold, admonitory voice. . .
`I AM THE LORD GOD WHOM YOU SERVE.'
A feeling of immense pressure, as if I am dissolving. . .Now I am in water...MY LUNGS ARE FULL OF WATER. . .no, it can't be...there is no  water...I have no lungs.  I am being made to think that is where I am. . .
But what is this?  What God can this be?"

`DO YOU NOT ACCEPT ME AS YOUR GOD?'
The idea of a God who threatens me amuses me...I let this idea flow out.
`DO YOU NOT FEAR ME?...; YOU ARE DAMNED!  YOU ARE NO MORE THAN WASTED ENERGY OF ME, WHO IS YOUR LORD!'"

"Ultimate Journey" was published in 1994 and Robert Monroe died of pneumonia within a year of its publication.  One of the symptoms of pneumonia is a troubling cough caused by fluid in the lungs.  Monroe's exclamation, "My lungs are full of water!" sounds like "God" is angered by Monroe's disdainful attitude and therefore allows him to experience a key symptom of the agent of his imminent death.

But what does "God" mean by forcing Monroe to simulate his future fatal pneumonia?  Is this really God or merely an impersonator?  According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love.  Monroe disdains words like "God" and "spiritual".  He identifies as "knowns" these 3 divine traits:

God "does not demand worship, adoration, or recognition, does not punish for `evil' and `misdeeds', does not intercede or interdict in our life activity (UJ 224-225)."  The futility of Monroe's astral attempts at prayer is not unexpected, given his contempt for the notion of a personal God.  Other astral adepts have reported that prayer was crucial in extricating them from threatening astral predicaments.  His claim that God does not hold people accountable for evil is an extension of his misguided principle: "There is no good, 
there is no evil.  There is only expression (UJ 217)." 

This principle can be traced back to 2nd century Gnosticism.  Gnostics used this principle as an excuse for sex orgies during Holy Communion, orgies in which, after the wife-swapping sex, semen and menstrual fluid replace Communion bread and wine.  Monroe's dogmatic claim that God does not require love is puzzling in view of his belief in love as the most important force in the universe. 

Monroe is entitled to his convictions.  But his claim that these 3 affirmations are not merely beliefs, but "knowns" is dogmatic hubris..
Is Monroe really confronted by God?  Is God giving Monroe one last chance to surrender his life to Him?  Is the prolonged fluid in the lung sensation a warning, a divine judgment, something else?  Is this whole astral projection a delusion, an unconscious projection of the clairvoyant insight that the fatal virus is already present or soon to be present?  I don't know.  One's answer will merely betray one's overview.  But I am sure of one thing--Monroe's proleptic experience of his death is more than just a coincidence.

Berserk

Berserk, you make some interesting points.

From memory towards the end of his last book Monroe admitted his aversion to the use of words like "God, spiritual" and other words, and acknowledged that doing so had obstructed his understanding. I think it was when he was pursuing his missing Basic, after he had contact with an aperture or outlet from what he called the emitter. He conceded there is a Creator/whole/emitter/God  and learnt he was supposed to return to it with gifts. (Its been 16? years or so since I read it so I might be a bit off) 

He provides a lesson there for everyone about hang ups.

Hang ups are irrational attractions and irrational aversions. And they are not called hang ups for nothing. They prevent forward progress, get in the way of further learning and understanding, and certainly hold one up. 

Fluid secretes into most people's lungs as they are dying, whether they have pneumonia or not. Most of us gurgle our way through our final hours. So his induced drowning sensation he experienced might be considered representative of common death, and a lesson to others too, not just himself.

Many people cringe at the same words that Monroe avoided, and at other words too, especially Christian words because its trendy in many circles to be anti-Christian. It is apparent that Monroe followers, for want of a better term, tend to avoid the same words Monroe made the mistake of avoiding. Perhaps some might learn from him the lesson he learnt. I admit I used to dislike the term spiritual because I spent a few years working with the "I'm-spiritual-not-religious" crowd and I found them to be such irritating fakes. But I use the term by its proper definition, not as the air heads use it, which is with no definition or meaning at all, as far as I can tell, just a buzz phrase they say to make themselves feel good. Whichever word is the proper word for something, smallest, most commonly used and understood, then I prefer that word, regardless of what hang ups others have about it. I make myself use the words awesome and absolute, even though they get used by so many people saying absolutely and awesome in regard to every little mundane petty thing, and I find that trend irritating, but usually I only use those words in reference to creation and God because awesome and absolute are so apt to that. Also the word wonderful, of course.                   

cb   

By the way, monroe's lesson on gifts sounds similar to the parable of the talents given to the servants - symbolic of investing and developing our own soul's recourses resources and returning with them fully realised or at least improved upon. He also learnt that people tend to depart the system in groups - sounds similar to separating the sheep and goats.

For me, in any ultimate quest--whether it be the truth of evolution or afterlife survival--the key question is: how is the standard view falsifiable, even in principle?  New Age groupies tend to be as close-minded as fundamentalists is their core assumptions.  By comparison, high school science teachers are not allowed to incorporate insights from articles in top scientific journals that unearth evidence against natural selection and genetic mutation as sufficient principles to explain certain aspects of living systems.  Evolution must be taught in our schools as fact, not as theory!  I know this because an engineer friend is heatedly involved in this debate on honest and open inquiry.

Now I don't know whether "The God bully" is really a divine representation or a crank spirit impersonator.  But I do think the pneumonia versus fluid in the astral lung parallel is significant and that its significance can't be analyzed objectively by most people.  Consider also the way New Agers turn arbitrary constructs like Monroe's Focus system into dogmatic beliefs about concrete "places" or "levels" like Focus 27 (Park) and then are troubled when neurologist Eben Alexander experiences his park as more akin to the Christian heaven, which they presume to be a "lower" BST.  Who is really stuck in blinding belief systems here and who is not?  I think there are objective criteria for establishing Alexander's heaven as a "higher" plane than the standard visits to Monroe's Focus 27 and will outline my case for this, if  there is interest. 

  I don't know what Monroe's experience was about, sure i have wondered about it, but it was never a pressing issue for me.  For all i know, it could have been a Jehovah thought form creation, from all the Jews whom for many years believed so strongly in a warrior and very strongly male type Creator.  It may have been an automatic "guard" on a boundary of sorts, to test people before going into higher energy levels--if they overcame fear, they pass and are allowed through.  Could have been a negative, controlling consciousness who didn't want to see Monroe go any higher (metaphorically speaking) for whatever reason.  There are many possibilities.   

    But i do know that there are powerful beings with a strong degree of lack of love.

Both my spouse and i have had a number of retrieval dreams.   One dream of hers was particularly interesting in that she came upon a young girl that was stuck, but apparently my spouse wasn't the only one scoping out the situation.  A very dark, but yet powerful nonphysical being was also there, and actively manipulating that girls perception of reality. 

A good analogy is that it was pulling a Freddy Kruger on her and having a much more powerful and clever mind and will than the girl, was able to influence the girl towards greater fear. 

   Once my spouse perceived what was happening, without hesitation or caution, she rushed in and tried to protect the girl.  My spouse has a strong mind and strong will, and is a fairly old soul.  Despite the lack of fear on her part, this dark being brushed her aside with impunity, and started to attack her instead.  She said it was very intense, like this powerful negative electrical energy being directed into her, very painful. 

    As she saw herself writhing in pain, she remembered a recent talk we had had in physical, about the importance of calling on the Divine for spiritual help and protection.  So she did exactly that and moments later, a group of powerful Beings of Light, set a containment field around that the dark being and got her and the girl out of there. 

  She woke up with strong body symptoms from the dream, she said she felt like she really had been attacked.  She said she realized after she woke up, that she should have created a reball type protection before going into the situation. (we both attended the Gateway in Faber btw)

  Whether this was just a symbolic teaching dream about caution and the fact that help from Divine forces is always there but it's important to specifically ask for same, whether her guidance had set it up, or whether she was remembering a very recent nonphysical experience, i don't know.   

  Some here will tell you that such powerful, dark beings don't exist and that you have absolutely nothing to worry about ever.   While i would say that being fearful is a waste of time and counter productive, especially since one can always call on help, our particular experiences and guidance messages, don't support the reality that there aren't any powerful but malevolent consciousnesses out there.  Considering just how enormously big reality is, and that it's basically freewill based, that seems pretty limiting to espouse imo.   If you can imagine it, it likely exists somewhere in some form or another. 

  However, i know that Love is the most powerful consciousness there is, and the more you attune to same, the stronger and more aware you become, and the stronger and more aware you become, the less such negative beings and group energies can negatively effect or influence you. 

   Someone like "He/She" for example, probably wouldn't ever need any "backup" like my spouse did in her dream situation.   But, with that said, how many "He/She" types are in this world, in human form currently.  Probably very few.   

  Meanwhile, for us more regular folk, occasionally asking for help and/or protection can be prudent/pragmatic at times.   

  Earth, or rather humanity as a whole, has a fairly slow vibratory consciousness field, and thus it attracts attention from like and similar frequencies.  Perhaps the most notorious of the negative groups involved here, is the E.T. group that some refer to as the Reptilians.  There is plenty of varied historical references to these. 

  One of the most fascinating is one of the accounts in the Dead Sea Scrolls called the Testament of Amram where Amram is relating a psychic experience of perceiving two "Watchers" essentially fighting each other over who will influence Amram.  One is a positive and spiritual being--a powerful Being of Light, and the other a negative and evil being "[One] of them was terr[i]fying in his appearance, [like a serpent, [his] cl[oa]k many-colored yet very dark... (14) [And I looked again], and ... in his appearance, his visage like a viper,..."

  In fact, these mentions of vipers and serpents occur quite a bit in the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Why, there is nothing inherently evil or bad about earth snakes, there were many dangerous creatures that humans in that area had to contend with, why pick on serpents and vipers?  Perhaps some had had experiences with perceiving a negative E.T. group that had some similarities to earthly serpents in some way? 

  In laboratory controlled DMT tests, a number of the patients which received large doses of DMT, perceived negative Reptilian beings. 

Truly, reality is much bigger than most in physical humans can conceive, let alone perceive.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2015 at 10:56pm:

  As a side note the version of "Ultimate Journey" which was published is altered significantly from the version Mr. Monroe wrote.  His agent refused to submit his version to the publisher.  Instead, years after he finished his manuscript, an editor was employed to rewrite the manuscript in a version more acceptable to his agent.

How do I know that?  Because I've read Mr. Monroe's original manuscript.

And, the being he encountered in the experience you are referring to is pretty typical for some nonphysical beings (or projections) who think entirely too highly of themselves.  To reach what Monroe called his source he had to shift past his own limiting beliefs.  Those beliefs appear to have taken form as the "god bully" you refer to.

Bruce

ross wrote on Apr 8^th, 2015 at 12:27am:

No, it is not available anywhere.  Maybe The Monroe Institute would consider publishing it if they have a copy?

It has been many years since I read it.  Wish I remembered more of it.  I think its content could best be summarized as an interim understanding, world view, of Bob's before the impact of his experiences had time to be fully absorbed.  The published version of his book, "Ultimate Journey," in my view, more accurately expresses Bob's world view toward the end of his physical existence.

Any of you can visit with Monroe now and ask him his opinion.  Just imagine doing that, make notes and seek verifications.

Love to ALL,

Bruce

Hey folks. This sorta fits in with the theme of the thread. I only found this website through lurking on other forums. GMan

Montalk Website, article written by Tom the Admin-Owner

"Beyond the material world, beyond the common rules, limitations, and assumptions we take upon ourselves, resides a greater spiritual reality operating under a set of higher principles that can help us transcend foolishness, strife, and drudgery. Knowledge limited to the physical world and bounded by the shortcomings of our five senses is not enough to attain freedom. Metaphysics is the study of higher knowledge, the deeper truths of life. We only have to recognize these higher truths and live by them to rise beyond old behavioral patterns and access a new vista of inconceivably wonderful possibilities.

All is Mind:

    Everything is consciousness, and all consciousness shares a common source. It is the ultimate center, the initiator of all causes, the core perceiver, the chooser.

    Consciousness is the dreamer (Creator), the dreamed (individualized consciousness), and the dreamscape (matter, space, energy, and time). There is no difference between reality and dreams except that reality involves mass consciousness holding the rules of reality rigid, whereas in dreams usually only the personal subconscious does so. Just as thought underlies objects in dreams, so does thought form the basis of matter in waking reality.

    Creation is infinite, composed of a unified infinite being (the Creator) and its expression as an infinite variety of finite beings. Stated another way, the Creator is an infinite being exploring its infinite potential through an infinite number of finite avenues. While individual evolutionary paths begin and end – beginning as the first stirring of awareness among primal matter and ending in unified congruency with the Creator – the grand experiment itself is without beginning or end because there are an infinite number of these paths.

    Because all life shares a common source, all life is interrelated and of equal worth. Only the expression of the underlying source differs from one lifeform to another. To differing degrees, each lifeform is endowed with freewill, the potential ability to choose independently of another being’s choice. Freewill adds a wildcard factor that makes the grand experiment interesting instead of boringly deterministic.

    Existence is both holographic and fractal in nature. It is holographic in the sense that all possibilities exist simultaneously and timelessly, while our individual consciousness interfering with this static pattern is what generates the illusion of dynamic experience. In other words, it is we who move through the static pattern, the dreamscape projected by the Creator. Existence is fractal in the sense that freewill requires discontinuities and inconceivable complexities in this static web of possibilities. A fractal exists as a static pattern created from a deterministic equation, but due to the infinite complexity of a fractal, its exploration by a conscious perceiver becomes an nondeterministic affair. And thus the game of life can be characterized by freewill even though the gameboard itself is static and deterministic.

    Progress arises when freewill moderates the interaction between two opposite forces. This forms a trinity generically composed of an active force, passive force, and neutralizing or balancing force. This trinity can be found everywhere that progress is to be found. For example, the tension of a string comprises the active force, inertia of the string creates the passive force, and the musician is the balancing force. From this is born music. Within individuals, the lower impulses form the passive force, higher spiritual callings of the heart form the active force, and you – the incarnated consciousness – form the balancing force by choosing between these two opposite polarities. From this is born the progress of your personal evolution. Even the fractal boundary of the Mandelbrot set acquires its infinite complexity by being the balancing point beyond two opposing mathematical values, the finite and the infinite – which ties back into reality being a fractal hologram.

Good and Evil:

    Choice allows one to serve the Creator within oneself by exploiting others or by serving the Creator within others. The first path is identifed as evil/darkness/negativity while the second path one associates with good/light/positivity. This sets up two branches of evolution – one that works against the laws of Creation and one that works with and for it. Both ultimately serve the Creator’s exploration of self, but only the positive path does so in a balanced manner. The tension between these two evolutionary paths enriches the grand experiment and provides the impetus for evolution by both sides.

    As Goethe wrote, the dark force “wills forever evil yet does forever good.” The self-serving path, despite giving the individual personal power, also puts him in unwitting subservience to higher powers. The highest power of all is the Creator, which those of the dark hierarchy unwittingly serve by providing the grand experiment with the passive force necessary for evolution. They provide the darkness against which the light stands out. Lucifer is referred to as the “lightbringer” because through self-serving actions, manipulation, and infliction of pain, self-serving individuals unwittingly give others the opportunity to see the light.

Cosmology:

    Finite consciousness can be classified into an octave scale of conscious development. This octave arises naturally because consciousness is vibration, and vibration strung between a beginning point (as matter) and ending point (as unity with the Creator) sets up a scale. This scale consists of eight notes: do re mi fa so la si do. The first note signifies sleeping consciousness and the last note represents active consciousness – and notice that these notes have the same name, illustrating how sleeping and active consciousness are just two expressions of the same infinite consciousness. The space between two notes on this evolutionary scale is called a “density” and there are seven total densities, each encompassing a particular class of conscious development. The higher densities have higher vibrations of consciousness and are more evolved.

    Whereas densities categorize different evolutionary levels of the dreamed, the terms “spacetime” and “timespace” classify different aspects of the dreamscape. Spacetime is the arena of causal interaction better known as physicality, where two or more beings interact while bound by a common set of physical laws. Spacetime is where experiences occur and lessons are learned – the ground, the battlefield, the classroom. By contrast, timespace is the sky, the command center, the teacher’s office. It is where individual beings have a bird’s eye view of what occurs in spacetime, providing a still point of contemplation, reflection, and planning of further spacetime experiences. This is the state one enters in between physical incarnations. The lower densities exist primarily in spacetime while the higher densities choose to exist almost exclusively in timespace.

Personal Spiritual Evolution:

    Upon incarnating into a physical body, we experience an occultation of awareness and forget who we are. Then social conditioning and biological impulses graft a false identity upon us that is in total discord with our true spiritual nature. Most people wear this false identity for life and fail to recognize and fulfill their true reasons for incarnating. But for others, intuition and experiences help them realize that there is more to life than the material world (matrix) admits. Throughout life these individuals experience higher impulses guiding them toward becoming lucid in this dream, while simultaneously lower impulses beckon them toward sleep. For those who consistently listen to their higher impulses, inner and outer life transforms and begins to operate under divine instead of material laws, removing limitations of the latter and opening up new possibilities. This is the process of transcending the matrix, using higher laws to override lower ones by developing and purifying one’s internal nature to resonate with higher realms of existence. This is a prerequisite for fulfilling one’s potential."