Hello everyone,

While looking into various channeled material, I've come across a recurring theme that is honestly confusing from every way that I think about it, and that is the idea of "no time" or "simultaneous time", in which the past, present, and future are all homogenized into one. I know that this was discussed a bit in my thread back in March, but I was hoping we could discuss it a bit further and delve into the implications. My first concern is resolving the conflict between simultaneous time and free will, partly because if the future is already occurring, then the events leading up to that future must occur in order for it to occur, thus bringing determinism back into the mix. My second concern is the notions of sequential order, motion, progression,and change in the afterlife. None of these can occur without some sense of time, so this leads one to believe that the nature of the afterlife is static. The best way that I can reconcile these issues is to look at it from the realm of probabilities. For example, the future "exists" as probabilities which may or may not actualize in accordance to one's freedom of choice, and (this is more my personal hope) the past "exists" as probabilities as well. The model I have just proposed, however, also takes in the fact that consciousness exists outside of "time", but still experiences the phenomenon of growth via the exploration of the various probabilistic timelines. At that level, the sense of temporal order still exists, but simply as "I was at this level of growth, but my exploration caused me to rise to this level of growth." Personally, this makes more sense, because it eliminates another problem of multiple selves spread throughout timelines all existing at once.

I realize that the very nature of this problem is incredibly convoluted, and this model that I've thought up is probably riddled with holes, but it makes some sense to me at this time. I was hoping you all could give your opinions on the matter and perhaps help me see a simpler explanation than the one I've proposed.

Reminds me of a story I've told before so I apologize in advance to those who've already know it.

Anyway my mom's nephew was a customs official at an upstate NY town near the Canadian border.  One day as he was relaxing on his front porch, which was located on one of the main roads through town, the scene suddenly shifted.

Instead of the usual traffic going by, the road was now cobblestones and the traffic, instead of cars, consisted of horses and carriages.  Passersby were dressed in early 20th century clothes.

According to her nephew, it wasn't just a visual thing.  He could clearly hear the sound of wagon wheels clattering on the cobblestones, the smell of the horses, and the laughing and yelling of kids.

He swore he was not asleep or dreaming, the scene lasted only a few moments but it was a totally real experience.  He was transfixed, unable to process what he was seeing and hearing.

Then the scene gradually "dissolved" and once again the normal traffic resumed as it had prior to his experience.

For years he had kept the story to himself.  It wasn't until he retired that he told family members.  I'm sure he was concerned that it might jeopardize his job if such a story came out at the time.

Assuming it wasn't a lucid dream, the question is whether this was an example of simultaneous time.  And if it was, the question then raises many other questions as well as possibly answering other riddles.

For example, if past/present/future time is really all One Time, it might explain how some people are able to predict or foresee future events.  Maybe they already took place and somehow a "window" becomes open under certain circumstances.

The more interesting question is whether an event in the "past" can be altered and "future" events be changed accordingly (the so-called butterfly effect).

This gets into the "Seth" material and others that claim anytime a decision is made whether big or small, it sets up a whole new probable reality wherein both decisions were made and the consequences of both decisions play out.

I decide to marry A rather than C, and although I am now living a life with A, there is another dimension where I'm living a life with C.  Or I leave the house after deciding I want to see a certain movie and am killed in a traffic accident.....on the other hand I decide to stay home instead and both scenarios then play out.

As Yogi Berra once said, "when you get to a fork in the road, take it."  Exactly!  The world of probabilities explained in one sentence.

For those who are interested in this sort of thing, Jane Roberts wrote a fascinating book called The Education of Oversoul #7.  Used books are still available from Amazon at low prices.

I am not a fan of Seth, but this book was not channeled and whether you accept her version of the elasticity of time or not, it sure makes for entertaining reading!

R

First of all, I can't say that I have this time thing all figured out.

Second, I'm not going to go by what channeled sources have to say about it.

That said, much of what Doc said about Tom Campbell's views seems correct to me.  My feeling is that we always live "now" and now is always going to be here even if we are aware of all moments of time during now.

It is hard for me to believe that we will reach a point where we can never have a new thought because all such moments have already taken place. As long as we always exist now, we can always have a new thought. It is more of a matter of reaching the point where as Tom Campbell suggests (as paraphrased by Doc), we can have a lot more thought while non-physical than while physical. We might experience an entire century in an instant.

Regarding space, since God can never be separate from a part of himself, space can't be an absolute limitation. It is a matter of how much we limit our experience of all that is.

By the way, I listened to a Tom Campbell video and at one point it seems as if he stated that parallel universes don't exist in the way that some physicists and some channeled sources state. Rather, different possibilities exist. A possibility doesn't have to become a reality simply because it exists. Through our free will we decide what possibilities manifest. My feeling is that this interpretation is correct.

Even if time were simultaneous this wouldnt mean that free will doesn't exist, because a chronological sequence could be seen that is based on a large number of now-based decisions.

The best way to answer the time related free will question is to ask ourselves "how do we feel right now?" "Do I feel the freedom of choice that exists within me right now?"

Albert

P.S. Since Jane Roberts was able to write the Oversoul books Roger referred to without Seth's help, and since she wrote science fiction and ESP books before Seth supposedly came along, perhaps she could've written Seth books without the existence of an actual Seth. The accuracy of such books might be based on what Jane and her husband were able to come up with.

I agree on all points, Albert.  My gut feeling, which I'm trying to listen to more, tells that consciousness uses time as a tool through which it can explore an infinitely vast range of possibilities. Perhaps the theory of simultaneity and my idea are saying the same thing in a different manner, but I just find it hard to wrap my mind around multiple "mes" running around doing the exact opposite of what I've done 
recoverer wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Valid point, it also undermines any weight a decision carries. "good" choices are taken simply out of personal gain, and any sense of choice becomes a series of hoops through which we jump in order to achieve our best personal outcome, which seems a bit lopsided in a system that seems to look highly upon selflessness and achieving the best possible outcome for all involved parties. I'm not trying to slander the idea of multiple selves by any means, but I can't overlook some of its implications.
recoverer wrote on Apr 19^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

As to the idea of multiple "mes", etc., my take on it is that there may be different digital data streams out there that we can explore, that are parallel to our own reality, but that they are not part of our own.  So, I very much doubt that there are a dozen versions of me, you or anyone else in earth-school physical reality. 

It seems clear to me that we can explore probabilities and possibilities in the right consciousness frame of mind, but that these frames or streams must be different from our own physical reality.  But some who experience NDEs or astral travel, etc. may not understand that they are exploring a divergent stream, and assume that it must relate to what they know to be real.

Thanks, Bruce. 

I think that makes much more sense.  Otherwise, timelessness seems like insanity.  You know, I am currently reading a novel on my Kindle.  While doing so, I remembered an interesting passage from the first chapter.  I scrolled back from the 10th chapter to the first, and then, after satisfying my curiousity, I scrolled forward again to the 10th.  On rare occasions, if something piques my interest, I jump ahead and then reverse course and go backward. 

Now the novel is still in the sequence in which it was written.  My ability to rewind or fast forward in no way changes the logic or the overall meaning of the novel.  But due to the nature of the Kindle, or my ability to change perspective, I can travel backward or forward along the data stream, or choose a linear approach to reading. 

I venture to say, that freed of a human body and constraints of the earth physical world sense of time, we have choices to change perspective (as Bruce mentions) and view things from different angles.  But this doesn't have to imply insanity or senselessness.  Sequences of events still exist, but our perpspective and perceptual abilities have greatly expanded.

Thanks again.

M

Bruce,
This view is actually one of the only ones I can comprehend, and I especially enjoy your mention of experience, which I see as an intrinsic function of consciousness that escapes the bindings of our notion of time. For example, when you return from your journey to analyze the building of the pyramids, you bring back with you an amount of experience that wasn't previously there, and as a result, your consciousness has grown larger than it would have been had you not decided to take the journey in the first place; the same goes for Doc's kindle example, where his deeper analysis provided him an overall growth in experience. This notion allows for a rudimentary sense of progression in both our time bound earth experience and our experience over There, and seems to clear up any need for multiple selves. I do believe, however, that experience can be "forgotten", or hidden away for the duration of something that a person would want to see through completely new eyes. In fact, the main application of this concept of temporary forgetfulness can be observed in our experience of Earth life.
Bruce Moen wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 4:02am:

DocM,

I really like your Kindle analogy, it says so much in such a simple meaningful way.  And, it gives a nice simple way to start talking about the "multiple mes" thing.

From my perspective as a single, individual, physical-world-dwelling human being in essence we could say that I only have access to a single Kindle book.  If I shift this me's awareness to be within a nonphysical reality I, as that me, am free of the constraints of the passage of time.  I can chose to visit, make that "re-experience," any portion of "my" series of events.  In essence I am free to shift my awareness to any previous page in "my Kindle book."  I can chose to observe this page from a different perspective than the one I originally experienced this page from.  And, with all the knowledge I've gained from the pages of my Kindle book that I have already experienced since this previous page, I might "see" things differently. 

Isn't that the essence of what a psychotherapist does using hypnosis to bring a client or patient back to traumatic events to try to unravel the mystery of our behaviours?  Just assist in shifting that client's awareness into a nonphysical reality (hypnotize them, whatever that means) to remove the constraints of physical world, one-way-only-time-passage, to to allow re-experiencing of traumatic events is if they are occurring in some different form of "Now"?  Facilitating a trip to experience building of the pyramids, so to speak?

Maybe mom beat me when I was six years old because I was playing with other kids, poking sticks in a fire.  Maybe that beating caused me to forever after believe my mother was a cruel, heartless bitch who didn't love me anymore?  What if years later I see every woman as a cruel, heartless bitch who will eventually, inevitably, hurt me and not love me anymore?  What if that single, traumatic event affects every relationship I have with every woman I meet?  What if . . . ?

Then later in life (in my forties) by removing the constraints of "time," the Shrink has helped me bring all that I have learned since that beating back to that page in my Kindle book.  With my more experienced perspective maybe as I observe or relive this beating experience I realize that my mother new the dangers of children playing with fire.  I now know she was raise by a drunken, "spare the rod spoil the child" Irish father who physical abused everyone in his family in every way one can.  I realize with her upbringing the only way she knew to discourage me strongly enough to keep me safe from the dangers of playing with fire was to beat me once an hour, every hour for an entire 12 hour day.  I realize the price she was willing to pay as a parent to keep me safe was to endure my lifelong hatred and distrust. Having realized all of this I through reliving that event with the benefit of all my experiences since age six, I see things differently.  When I shift my awareness back to my Kindle page at "in my forties," come out of hypnosis and rejoin the "passage of time reality" I am a different Bruce.  What is that I did?  In my present day jargon I "retrieved an Aspect of Self."  That beating experience caused me to split off an Aspect of me, "the little boy," who continues to exist, trapped inside the reality of his choices, existing as a sort of separate version of me within my forty something year old's subconscious, whatever that means.

Before the hypnotic session with the Shrink that six year old version of "me" existed within its own, self created, belief-based reality.  A reality in which mom, and therefore all woman, were heartless bitches whose love would always lead to pain they were never to be trusted.  That six year old version of me had continued to exist in "the past" and exert its influence silently on my behavior toward woman in general, and in my one-on-one relationships in particular.  I didn't know why I treated women this way, didn't realize it was that little boy's misinterpretation of the meaning and reasons for that beating that had become so ingrained in my identity it continued to influence me for the rest of my life.  But, by rewinding my Kindle book and re-experiencing it from my forty year old perspective, that little boy realized his misinterpretation of the event.  That little boy was "retrieved" back with me to my forty something year old perspective.  In other words, that little boy now existed as part of my conscious reality/identity as a forty something present day.

From within that "present day" perspective that little boy could make more connections between his belief based reality and its effect on my relationships with women.  At some point that little boy version of me, that Aspect of Self, fully integrated into me as part of my forty something self.  It gained enough understanding to no longer exert its former influence in the same way on the "older" me.  In that old mes "Now" that little boy might be great at spotting the real cruel, heartless bitches (if any really exist) but it doesn't see ALL woman as that.  My older mes relationships with women might improve.  I might actually be able to experience the feelings of love and trust with women again, like I did before that beating page in my Kindle.

Why would anyone chose to live life that way?  Why would anyone chose to suffer so much for so long?  To inflict the women in his life with his behaviors?  That's a really, really good question and I'll bet there is more than one really, really good answer.

Boil all those really, really good answers down to their essence, and one result of all of them is that, that choice (to believe what that six year old me believed its meaning to be) gave the opportunity to directly experience the effects of my choices of beliefs.  Was that a "bad" choice or a "good" choice made by that little boy me on that page of my Kindle?  How can I make a judgement about that from the limited perspective of my now sixty-six year old me shifting back and forth through my Kindle between my birth and now?  Maybe I have a bigger Kindle book than the sixty-six year version I am aware of?  Maybe if I tried rewinding my Kindle to events in my "event line" that were before my "birth" this lifetime I'd discover some.  Maybe I'd discover that what I believed was my my entire Kindle book was but one chapter in the Kindle Novel of my existence.  Maybe I'd discover that my choice to believe I only began to exist at all at this "present" body's birth has blocked my awareness of these previous pages in my Kindle Novel.  Maybe by choosing to join the the one-way-passage-of-time version of reality has lots of unrealized consequences once I am living events within that reality? Maybe by rereading, so to speak, some of those "pre-joining physical reality pages" I'll discover other choices made "back then" that led me to decide to go through that beating event page and all that followed as a result to learn something new to me through directly experiencing those events?

Maybe. Yeah, maybe.  From where I'm setting Now at sixty-six if all the possible reasons were numbers on a roulette table most of my chips would be stacked on that one's number!

I often tell people I have no at all objection to the concept of predestination as long as every one understands that it is "me" that makes the choices leading to those "predestined" events.  If the concept instead is that Someone Else outside of "me" (GOD?) is seen as the One who causes my predestined events, that's where I get off that thought train.

So, can I shift my awareness to "future" pages in my Kindle?  In my view, yes, to some extent.  If I somehow become aware of the choices I have made in the "past" perhaps I can figure out some of the logical, implied events that could occur on the "future" pages of my Kindle Novel.

What if I could somehow shift my awareness to the page in my "pre-this-lifetime" Kindle to the page where I made the choices that led to my "future" beating as a little boy experience?  Could be that doing such a thing could bring knowledge and understanding to the question of why anyone would intentionally chose to "suffer" during their lifetime?  Yeah, I'll put some chips down on that roulette table number for a spin of that wheel too!

But, how do I do that?  How do I consciously explore my pre-this-lifetime Kindle pages?  Enter the concept of "Higher Self" or what I call my Disk and conscious access to more of my previously hidden Kindle Novel.  More to follow in a later post . . .

Bruce

DocM wrote on Apr 20^th, 2014 at 9:30am:

This is becoming an enjoyable, thought provoking thread.

Thanks for the Kindle metaphor, DocM.

Bruce