Channeling has become very popular and common today.  Many people make it seem very easy, casual and automatic even while being fully conscious and involved with same. 

   This is interesting to me because of my understanding and experience of attunement indicates that true channeling, aka more direct relaying of info from guidance has many factors that influence it.  To reach that more balanced and perfect attunement to allow information to come in more clearly and directly from expanded guidance is not necessarily easy to achieve.  It even involves the state of the physical body as a factor. 

   A couple of sources are a good study in this.  One is Rosalind McKnight who worked with Bob Monroe as one of his explorers, and has regular guidance sessions take place.   If you read her book "Cosmic Journeys" which outlines a chunk of her experiences with Bob as an explorer, you will note that her guidance worked a lot with her on various ways of creating a better attunement between her and them. 

  This involved things such as specific breathing exercises, certain visualizations, fasting, as well as generally growing in love and expanding beliefs. They structured the sessions to build and expand upon each other as time went on.   Rosalind often would not remember a lot that happened in her sessions because she often went pretty deep.   Sometimes she would be more present and remember some for a little while after the session, but even then often it faded away like a dream. 

They eventually worked out a system wherein they, and especially her main guide, would speak directly through her vehicle--hence she was not very involved in translating or relaying the info.  This allowed a more direct and clear transmission of info to come through than would normally.

   Interestingly, at one point, her guidance became very serious with both Bob and Rosie and chided them some about their unhealthy lifestyle habits--especially as far as food and eating.  "Ah So", the main guide, even said essentially, *if you both cannot make changes in this important area, we will have to stop working with you in this way*  They stressed the importance of even the physical body and it's balance and health in the process of greater attunement to expanded consciousness. 

   This is a good segway into another well known psychic named Edgar Cayce.  From a young age, Edgar would pray as a child to be of service to others, especially to children.  Edgar was a complex and extremist type personality in a lot of ways.  He had very spiritual and fast vibrating aspects of self, mixed in with some pretty limited and slow vibratory aspects, but generally speaking had and tried to live by high ideals.   

     While he was pretty unusually intuitive and psychic while awake, it did not compare to when he went into a very deep and unconscious state.  During this state, his guidance could answer very specific questions about virtually anything provided there were helpful intents involved.  When oil, treasure, and the like became a focus, often times the information became more distorted.

    Cayce rarely ever remembered anything consciously from a reading.  Very occasionally, he would remember something like a dream after he awoke from doing a reading, but he, his conscious mind and personality mind was very unconscious and deeply submerged during these readings. 

    In short, he would not have been able to do these kind of readings with the depth, accuracy, and breadth had his conscious mind and personality been more consciously involved. 

     His guidance at times implored him, to create a better attunement and balance in his system.  He was told to be more loving and spiritual at times, to meditate more.  Most often, his diet and health lifestyle was chided.  He rarely made those necessary changes to attain a more clear and direct attunement.  Yet, he was still very much a service oriented person, who would give free readings if people couldn't afford them (much to the irritation of his wife, because they were basically poor most of the time). 

    You might be reminded of Rosies guidance and their advice and criticism of diet of Rosie and Bob with the above.   

   Then there are my own experiences with attuning to guidance.  It's not too hard for me to pick up information psychically about various things.  However, clearly and directly attuning to very expanded guidance and consciousness states, takes more.  Often times, i need to go into a deeper meditation to really create a more clear and direct connection to that guidance, and even then, i tend to only pick up tidbits of information at a time.  It's rarely like someone talking to me in person via clearly heard words. 

  It's more like, feeling and translating feeling impressions, occasional visuals (often symbolic), sometimes waking dreams, occasionally hearing something more clearly, a knowing popping up, etc. 

    To put this in perspective, i'm pretty dedicated to spiritual growth and service on many levels.  I eat an unusually healthy and disciplined diet, try to exercise daily some outside, work a service job of working with people with disabilities that doesn't pay much, subject myself to various challenges like having house mates live at our place--experimenting with an open relationship within a marriage.  I've been consciously interested in the spiritual and nonphysical since age 13 and have been working on self since then. PUL type love has been a big focus for me for a long time, and my basic ideal for a long time.  Been through some major life challenges and severe testing starting at an early age.

   So knowing all that i know about the issue of attunement, especially in relation to studying various outer sources and with my own experience, you might begin to understand why i tend to be rather skeptical of many channelers today whom make it seem so easy and automatic, especially when money and notoriety seems to be such a big factor in their work. 

   They cannot all be spiritual and psychic mozarts, the odds are high against it.  I do think there are some unusually and innately gifted people out there, but even they have to work at it some, and have had a lot of practice, practice, practice (often in more than one lifetimes too).   

   The point of this post is to facilitate some deeper thought about the science of attunement, and to promote the open minded but skeptical attitude which i think is very important when dealing with psychic and spiritual sources and phenomena.  Nothing is more important than your own soul and it's spiritual growth.  The latter is one of the biggest factors of why you even come here to begin with.   Doesn't it make sense to apply discrimination and seek to be led to the more universally helpful and fast vibrating sources both within and without? 

  To sort of paraphrase Bardo from another thread, why not go within and directly connect to your own guidance rather than focusing so much on this or that outer source?   Or, if you feel you aren't aware of enough of the communication, then focus on just living and being spiritual. 

  This is what most expanded outer sources are trying to steer people towards anyways.  They don't want you dependent on them, they don't want you to become overly attached to one particular teachings, channel, etc.  They want you to go within and directly connect and also to just open up to Love more and more.  If a outer source helps you to do that, then great, it serves a purpose. 

   But we also have limited and limiting aspects of self that get attracted to outer sources.  Sometimes we like a source because it helps us to keep alive certain illusions or because they say things which are comforting to those stuck aspects of self.  Often times, expanded wisdom and guidance can be a bit uncomfortable in that it challenges us and doesn't coddle our ego, or rather stuck aspects.

    

   

Channeling is notoriously unreliable.  For a current example of this, check into the recent book My Son and the Afterlife.

Elisa Medhus, a medical doctor, had a son Erik who committed suicide at age 19.  She put out a book detailing communications supposedly from Erik as channeled by her two "spiritual translators."

Among many other things Erik tells us is that he has a wide screen tv and enjoys watching it, but avoids movies because it's much more entertaining watching activities here on earth.  He also claims meeting with Source....

Medhus is a respected doctor with impressive credentials.  She is personally convinced her son is the source of the communications.

It's worth a look, if only to consider the credibility of channeled information.

R

  Hi Lucy,

  Curiosity is important.  When i come upon a new outer source, i do two things, i read and weigh the words more intellectually, but at the same time, i also try to feel the energy quality behind the words, if that makes any sense.  It's kind of like reading or sensing auras in other.  Books and sources have their own "auras" to to some extent.  Ime, some have very expanded auras and some are very limited.   If one immerses themselves in a particular book or source, it can have a resonate consciousness effect on one's own field too.  This is nice if you happen to come across a book or outer source whose field is more expanded and faster vibratory of your own.  It's not so helpful when it's more slow vibratory and limited than your own, but passes itself off as being wisdom, great advice, etc.

  That intuitive-feeling-sensing of the quality of a book or source has led me away from certain books and sources. 

   Re: Seth.  Ignoring Robert's and Seth's distortion of Yeshua's life and the whole meaning of same..

  Here is my main problem with the Seth material besides the above.  Most sources that i've come upon that have struck me as expanded and higher quality, focus a lot on Love in a more PUL type sense.  They emphasize our Oneness with each other and everything.  While they may talk about many other different things and processes, they always come back to this as the center.

  Their primary focus is to inspire us to grow in love holistically, to be of positive service, etc. 

     I'm not a Seth expert or Jane Roberts expert, but i did read some of Seth Speaks.  I found very little emphasis on this.  It was all intellectual concepts.   Interesting on one or some levels, but really not all that important in the long run. 

   Roberts originally became involved with Seth via a Ouija board.  This is a rather shallow way of getting involved with getting in touch with guidance, and attracts many impersonators because there is a lack of deeper attunement involved. 

   I'm just rather skeptical of the Seth material from what i know about it, even though it is and has been quite popular, and even people like Tom Campbell sort of gives it kudos.  I have a lot of respect for Tom Campbell, but having received a message about him one time, i realize he has perceptual errors and limitations too, though his fans think he is an all knowing, all wise master type.

It's important to understand that there many different levels of consciousness and of the nonphysical, some with beings of pure and purely helpful intention and some with anything but.  And a whole range in the middle.  Not much different than humans.  Some are just guide wannabe's.  They aren't particularly negative or anything, but think themselves experts, full of themselves, like hearing themselves talk and love giving advice, even when it's not particularly wise or informed.  In short, they really like their 10 minutes of fame.  When in physical as a human, they were probably attention seekers.  Tendencies like these can carry over.

    It's far easier to consciously communicate with and receive info from the more limited and less mature beings because they are in a sense, "closer to earth." (frequency wise)  The more expanded the level, the more difficult it tends to be for humans to consciously clearly and directly communicate with them.  This is because being in a human body, well tends to have a very limiting, grounding effect on perceptual awareness, and there is a much wider gap between certain levels of frequency between a human and a very expanded guidance source or level.  We may have some parts of ourselves very intune with them (if we are mature ourselves), but other parts are not.  This imbalance causes static and distortion.  It's very much like turning a dial on a radio and trying to match frequency wavelengths, except that we are living radios with our own inherent frequency band which is "normal" for us, they too have their own which is much faster vibrating. 

  Expanded and skilled guidance can slow down their vibratory patterns some to better match with us, but most cannot fully match to the physical level, which is a very slow vibratory field.   So the more we raise our vibratory patterns, even of the body itself, the better we can attune to them and vice versa.


  P.S., Christianity as been force fed to the masses is not real Christianity.  It's a distorted shadow of same.  Real Christianity is more akin to Buddhism in the sense that it's a way of life and way of being.   It's all about PUL and service.  The various churches and isms are far, far, far from that for the most part.   Probably Unity is the closest as a trend. 

  While i talk a lot about Yeshua, it's important to understand i wasn't ever into the religion and groups or isms of Christianity.  I think it gives me a different perspective about him, than a lot of people who have had a bad taste left in their mouth after being involved with distorted reflection versions (often pushed onto them by family or friends, larger culture around them etc).

    From around 300 AD to current time, some limited and negative forces have become involved with shaping and manipulating Christianity towards their own ends.  This becomes very obvious when you look at how many "Christians" preach hate and intolerance towards those who different, such as people who are attracted to the same sex.

Justin- I know you referenced ACIM in terms your thoughts re. its source, but can you elaborate?  Have you read all or most of it?

My own impression is that some of its tone has a hectoring quality. There is a disturbing inconsistency in the tone itself.  At times it comes across as loving, other times almost threatening.

Also something I noticed that I haven't seen others comment on, but although the book is supposedly channeled by Jesus, there is a reference toward the end of the book to Jesus in the third person!  Something that would not have happened assuming the author was Jesus (an assumption that I don't share).

I'd be interested in knowing if you have any speculations about its motives.

R

Yes, Don and I spent many hours discussing this book.  It is correct that it includes just enough truth to set the hook.  Not a new device to be sure, but effective and seductive.  It certainly has a large following.

I have my own belief as to why it was channeled, and the reason certainly isn't benevolent.  That's one reason I remain cautious about Danison's NDE (not that she herself had any intentions to mislead).

Enough said about ACIM.

R

  Good points Albert. 


  I'm not sure why there tends to be so much resistance here and at other places regarding the idea, or rather reality, that there are unfriendly beings that want to keep this world and humans stuck. 

    But there is a lot of resistance to it.

  It's interesting how some channeled or psychic sources seem to deny or downplay the reality of this as a factor, and others occasionally speak about some of these hindering forces.

   Bruce seems to give no credence to it.  Sometimes i wonder if that is a left over residue of his involvement with ACIM, which seems to have the agenda of denying such realities?

   People here may think we tend to be black and white or extremist about these things and outside sources, but we both like and respect Bruce and his work a lot, even though his material and beliefs do not speak of such important factors and to some extent seems to downplay it.

    Some people might say, well if you are transforming fear and living in the Love energies that you shouldn't think about such factors, that thinking or talking about it indicates a lot of fear within those people who do talk about it. 

    While this can be the case, sometimes i think it's actually the opposite.  Just as a lot of people don't talk about death because of their fear or discomfort with the topic.  Often those who do, are in the process of getting over their fear and it's not as big of a deal to them.   They are willing to face it directly. 

    Should we fear unfriendly beings?  No, of course not, but awareness of same and fear of same are two very different things.  Without conscious awareness, it's often easier to be influenced by these in their different forms, as in the case we are talking about outer teachings and books.

I think a neutral observer coming across this board would be genuinely puzzled with the stance taken by a number of posters concerning such sources as ACIM. My own experience with ACIM is buying the book about 15 years ago, reading some of it and thinking it had some provocative ideas/concepts, laying it to one side and lending it to a friend and not seeing it since. But I do know enough about it to know that it has influenced such people as Gerald Jampolsky and Marianne Williamson (who seem to do good works) and I remember Laughing Rain ( a poster here) , in one of her dialogues with Berserk about ACIM saying it had saved her from feeling suicidal.

I also see no evidence that people are reading it and using it as an excuse to do bad things because 'its all good'. On the other hand the historian could point to centuries of human abuses (e.g. burning of protestants in the 16thC, suicide bombers etc.) arising from traditional religions that have a punitive God figure. I understand that the author of ACIM is a source of controversy but many biblical scholars such as Prof. E.P Sanders and Prof. Bart D. Ehrman would not accept New Testament accounts of Jesus as historical 'facts' anyway (for example some contradict each other)- so can we be totally sure who the historical figure of Jesus was ? The concept of 'blending truth with lies' I find perplexing because unless one believes that 100% objective truth exists that is so vague as to apply to anything with which one partially disagrees.

Ultimately every individual has to decide for themselves which influences they choose connect with and accept the consequences. I am not sure I believe in a 'one size fits all' spirituality; what may be appropriate for one may not be appropriate for another. Also what may be inappropriate at one stage of our life may be appropriate at another. How many times have we picked up a book which we had previously disregarded and found new truths in it ? Or alternatively looked again at a book we once considered profound and found it trite ?

The problem is that if one continues to disparage other people's sources is that they simply go elsewhere and the board becomes stale and regurgitative rather than dynamic and interesting. I don't say this to offend anyone but its how I see it.

Hi Recoverer-

I don't think Marianne Williamson tries to hide her connection to ACIM, it seems central to it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in the same way that when Jesus in the gospel of Mark was accused with being in league with the Devil, he replied that 'If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand' (Mark 3:25), you have to ask yourself if a text is 'bad' why is it inspiring good works such as Williamson's setting up project Angel food for people with AIDS in LA ? It doesn't seem that 'its all good philosophy' causes immoral behaviour at all. The same seems to be true with Jerry Jampolsky's attitudinal healing work. I'm not arguing that ACIM is the 'whole truth and nothing but the truth' or even that it is suitable for everyone (I prefer a more interactional approach) only that its not as bad as painted here.

Heisenberg:
I suppose there are some fundamentalist churches that also do good despite their limiting dogma. This doesn't mean that there isn't a better way.

Hugh Prather is ACIM teacher. Consider what he said below:

"A few years ago, I attended a gathering where I saw many of the people associated with the Course that Gayle and I had gotten to know in the 70's. As I said earlier, I am aware of no teaching that emphasizes innocence and unity in more straightforward terms than A Course in Miracles. I know of no teaching that ranks itself more clearly as just one of many, as a temporary aid only, and as helpful to some but not to all. A Course in Miracles simply does not present itself as a superior or even a permanent teaching, and, in my opinion, the heart of the teaching is that we must turn from our belief that we are individually "special" to the recognition that we are not only equal but one with each other and one with God.

What effect does the long-term study of such a teaching have on its students? I was surprised that after twenty years it was the opposite of what I expected. With two or three exceptions, everyone I saw at the gathering was far more separate and egocentric than they were when Gayle and I first met them. In fact, their egos were so large that many of them had lost the ability to carry on a simple conversation. They made pronouncements and listened deeply to no one. I was appalled, and when I returned home, I said to Gayle, "If this has happened to most of our Course friends, is there any chance it hasn't happened to us?"

The answer was that indeed it had happened to us. Even though we had long noticed the unhelpful effects of most religions and spiritual teachings on their students, we had thought that as Course students we were immune -- because the Course emphasizes reversing this very dynamic. If the dynamic is not the fault of the teaching or religion itself -- and in most cases it clearly is not -- what mistakes do students make that cause it?

When Gayle and I finally looked at ourselves honestly, we discovered that although we had been ministers and spiritual teachers for many years and had written over a dozen books on spiritual themes, we personally had not become kinder or even more sane through our devotion. We, like most individuals, started a spiritual path with the intention of becoming better people and finding ways to be truly helpful, only to move in the opposite direction. The more time and thought we had put into teaching and writing about our path, the more self-absorbed we had become. We had ended up less flexible, less forgiving, and less generous than we were when we first started our path!"

http://www.nhne.com/misc/food0001.html

Recoverer- an excellent link and couldn't find anything to disagree with, later on he says:

'A Course in Miracles can survive in the 21st century, in fact it can transform the 21st century, if those who see the Reality it points to choose to extend themselves beyond their ego boundaries and make the interests of another their own. Awakening is not joining with some shining concept in the sky. It is joining with each other. It is lived and expressed in the hundreds of small encounters, errands, and tasks that fill each day. Only instant by instant do we choose to see our sameness, our equality, and our oneness with others. Only by loving do we wake to Love. Only by extending peace do we wake to Peace.'

Who can argue with that ?

I think the point he was making was that the human ego can run rampant whatever the creed/teaching says; this applies to all religions, faiths or philosophies not just ACIM. As Don (Berserk) has said when the historical iniquities of the church have been pointed out (I paraphrase): 'don't judge a belief by the least of its adherents' !

'What if a fire and brimstone preacher blamed his flock's homophobia on their egos? Would that be a realistic defense?'

I don't think 'fire and brimstone' preachers normally worry about homophobia- except to worry there's not enough of it !

More seriously, though, maybe you read the passage differently to me but it just seems to be that the man is trying to be honest - if he was trying to paint a rose-tinted portrait of ACIM why mention the ego problems of the students at all ? Why not just say all is sweetness and light ? Are you saying he is both being honest and dishonest at the same time ?

Getting back to ACIM for a moment, if there's no moral distinction between our actions and they are all equal by virtue of the claim that they never took place to begin with, the obvious question is why bother with the life review?

The life review would be irrelevant since "bad" acts are illusory.  Why experience the hurt we caused others by our words or deeds, if the hurt was not real.

Many people refer to the life review as a learning tool, but what's there to learn if the whole point of our life is to "experience"?

Seems a bit of a contradiction. In any case, real or illusory, I will continue to at least try to be kind to others and avoid during harm.  I think I'll say thanks but no thanks to the free lunch offered by ACIM.

R

  David, it need not be so extreme as that.  Really.  Most people that are attracted to spiritual teachings that talk about the importance of Love and Oneness, are generally good hearted people. 

   They don't become monsters or necessarily totally apathetic even if they are subconsciously influenced by a false course.   But, they can and do pick up limiting beliefs or subconscious suggestions, that they will have to disentangle themselves from eventually.  I've talked to a few people that are into that course.  All of them focus on a lot on "ego", and are very attached to this course and talk about it constantly.

  David wrote, Quote:


  Ok, but i would note that i'm more interested in what guidance tells you about certain sources than intellectual defense of them.  And i asked you first. I can talk about the above, if you really want, in another post.   

    You have nothing to lose by taking up the challenge i presented to you.  I'm asking for maybe 10 minutes or so of your time.  I've had a number of experiences where i had certain preconceptions, but decided to bring the issue to expanded guidance under more ideal circumstances (similar to as i outlined to you in my last post), and was told something differently than what i had preconceived. 

   This kind of "checking" is important-- it is one of the few ways that we as humans can overcome limiting beliefs and belief systems and figure out the truth of a matter beyond the illusions, chimeras, and smoke screens that our intellectual minds and personalities easily get caught up in.   

Heisenberg:

It is true that the below doesn't happen for some people, but do you know if it doesn't happen for anyone?

In the 1980s I was involved with Guru-based non-dual teachings (ACIM and nonduality have a lot in common). I've heard more than one guru express the viewpoint that the World isn't real so one doesn't need to be concerned about the suffering that takes place within it. There was this attitude that only an ignorant person would concern himself with the suffering that takes place within a World that doesn't exist.

Such people wouldn't do things such as vote because it doesn't make sense to vote in a World that isn't real.

I don't remember where, but when it comes to the possible ACIM/Mk-Ultra connection, some sources say that Mk-Ultra might've created things such as ACIM in order to make liberal minded people indifferent so they wouldn't do things that oppose conservative agendas. Who is more likely to read ACIM? A conservative fundamentalist Christian or a liberal new ager?

If ACIM is misleading in more than one way (as I listed on an earlier post), is it really a good thing that people like Marianne Williamson try to make this World a better place through a vehicle like ACIM?

Regarding Mein Kamp, well that book had and continues to have "real" negative effects. The book and its negative effects don't go away by affirming/asserting, "that book and its results aren't real because everything God creates is perfect."

Also, at least ways Hitler didn't claim that Mein Kamp comes from Jesus.



heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:52pm:

Seagull:

The approach you suggested seems more balanced than ACIM. I also agree with your approach of finding wisdom and inspiration from different Sources rather than being overly reliant on one Source.

Even if there is a Source that has bad intentions, if we are wise, we'll end up using some of its words in way that is beneficial.

If I was with a person who was depressed about a War, an airplane crash, or a natural disaster, I wouldn't take the approach ACIM suggests. Rather, I would acknowledge that something negative did take place, but would also state that thankfully, eventually, things will work out for the best.  My certainty of the existence of the afterlife and a very positive future helps me deal with some of the difficulties of life. But I don't want to pretend that such difficulties don't exist.

It is true that different people will interpret the same words in different ways. I'm concerned about when such words lead to negative results. This does happen.

Albert

Quote:

It does happen, Albert, and it is part of having free will. When one has stated thoughts about the concern, what more is there to do?

David wrote, Quote:


    In a sense, the physical is sort of an illusion, however, that's not the whole truth of the matter.  If you read or listen to Rosalind's explorer sessions, they talk about this aspect, but her guidance doesn't say that error doesn't exist, and her source was big on "retrieval".  One doesn't practice or care about retrievals if one doesn't think that suffering doesn't matter or doesn't exist.

  In any case, this is NOT the problem i have with that course, it's that is actually is designed to program ego, polariziation-imbalance into the subconscious mind (which many consider to be more the ruling mind than the conscious in many ways).  How it does so, i've logically outlined, and is very easy to understand if one has any knowledge of and experience in dealing with how the subconscious mind and suggestions to same work.  Talk to a hypnotherapist about it.  Ask them what happens when someone reads a long, boring, super repetitive book wherein the problem or thing you're looking to get away from, is constantly talked about so much when you're in that more sensitive, subconscious state because your conscious mind has become so inactive and the ruling subconscious mind so active, because the conscious has been been bored to death with lengthy repetition of the same concept over and over again. 

  Voila, subconscious programming.  Otherwise known as "brainwashing".  Oh gee, what MK Ultra was devoted to. 

Quote:


  Evidence?   Surely you know and understand that humans as a lot are rather subjective beings?  We have so many filters, preconceptions, limited beliefs.  Take a look at science, the supposed bastion of objective, evidence based process and approach. 

Yet, in practice, is this actually the case all the time?   In many ways, for many people, science has become like a religion wherein people conveniently ignore evidence and data contrary to their preconceptions, the mainstream paradigms, or what they want to believe.  There is fear of the unknown or unexplained...  There is fear to go against social convention or to be different.  There is fear of being wrong.  There is fear of losing ones status, ones job, ones funding, etc, etc

    David, you have to try a bit harder than that. 

  Oft times, truth is stranger than fiction, or rather stranger than mainstream beliefs. 

    Take Reptilian E.T.'s.  These show up in some form or manner in various ancient cultures in myths, legends, religious writings.  Do you think that if there really was a negative E.T. group involved with Earth and humans, that they would leave a lot of hard evidence for their existence?  Maybe they are a bit smarter than that?    

   Precisely because of people like David Icke, i scoffed at and for awhile disbelieved in these.   It wasn't until i started to get guidance messages about these, that i started to be more open minded to the possibility of their existence and involvement.  Similar with Albert. 

  But you are ignoring my request and challenge.  I'm asking you to step outside of your preconceptions and intellect and to tune into information on a deeper level.  This is a site co started by one Bruce Moen.  I'm assuming you have some interest in Bruce Moen's work since you are here.   A big part of Bruce Moen's work, just as Bob Monroe's was, is the concept of "guidance". 

     And that we can communicate more directly with same. Especially as a means to convert limited human belief systems and perceptions.   

  All i'm asking you to do, is to step outside of your intellect and preconceptions a bit about ACIM, and tune into expanded guidance within to perceive the real deal about it free of these.  Free of Justin's, Albert's, Alysia's, Marianne's, etc, etc dogma.  Just you and expanded guidance communicating within yourself.   

   Considering what site/forum we are on, this is a perfectly reasonable and logical practice and very much inline with one of the deeper intents and teachings of the founder of same--someone i assume we both have respect for. 

  Why the resistance?

Justin said, " P.S., Christianity as been force fed to the masses is not real Christianity.  It's a distorted shadow of same.  Real Christianity is more akin to Buddhism in the sense that it's a way of life and way of being.   It's all about PUL and service.  The various churches and isms are far, far, far from that for the most part.   Probably Unity is the closest as a trend. "

The best description of this truth that I have found is in "Living Buddha, Living Christ", by Thich Nhat Hanh. The commonality of all religions, and even the "isms", including "courses" in spirituality, lies outside the written or spoken word. Motivation colors every word we speak or write, and the true aim of spirituality, I think, is to get past the word and into the light. So much intellectual energy is being expended here parsing the words of others. Light is silent but all pervading.

Quote:


I thought Bruce said he never met a hostile being "out there." I do not want to put words in Bruce's mouth. Has he ever written about "unfriendly beings"?

Are we back to the old alchemist syaing
The eye is more inclined to see what is behind it than what is in front of it

How do you know that unfriendly beings are not just a projection?

I doubt that Bruce has become aware of everything that exits.

In Ultimate Journey Robert Monroe wrote that he was told by his I-there that unfriendly influences both human and non-human have been messing with the human race pretty much for as long as the human race has been on this planet.

Consider how human beings of different religions including early forms of Christianity (the Old Testament period) did animal sacrifices. Who did these people receive their instructions from? Probably not a love-based being.

Lucy wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 1:16pm:

  Regarding Bruce, ACIM, and unfriendly beings. 

  As i wondered before, and earlier did so out loud, i wonder if his involvement with same created a block in not perceiving or being interested in the question of unfriendly beings. 

    I think Bruce is a pretty mature Soul, generally quite perceptive, etc.   But that doesn't mean that Bruce perceives all there is about reality. 

    I had an experience with this actually.  My wife and i had briefly talked to Bruce about some of our odd "spider" experiences, which to us seemed linked to unfriendly forces.  He seemed to kind of dismiss or gloss over that interpretation. 

  Later on, i wondered if i should tell Bruce about more of our perceptions and experiences relating to these.  I decided at night time to meditate on it to see whether i should.  I ended up falling asleep before getting deeper in the meditation, but i had a dream guidance message about it.

  I had an incredibly intense and vivid-real feeling dream wherein i was in earth, but things were different and strange.  There was a lot more suffering than usual.  At first, i thought i was really in my physical body, but when i thought that, i had a knowing say something like, "no, this is a potential-possible future".   Long story short, i was seeing a possible future wherein humanity didn't handle the changes well and we had allowed ourselves to be overly influenced by an unfriendly E.T. group(s).   The amount of suffering was horrible.  It was like the medieval ages again. 

   It was very upsetting to me, and i became very angry in the dream towards that group for interfering with humanity's development.

  I decided to share this dream with Bruce and told him the circumstances around same.  I heard nothing back and wondered about it.  I then had the following dream the night-morning after. 

  In the dream, Bruce and i were together and sharing PUL energy with each other.  It was really nice.  Bruce however, fell asleep while we were still interacting. 

   When i awoke, i knew the dream was saying that Bruce is "asleep" or unconscious to this aspect of reality.  Some part of him doesn't want to be aware of it, or as i suspect it's possible that his involvement with ACIM has had a limiting influence on his perception of this side of reality.

  However, i'm going to stop with this.  It's clear that people are not interested in contacting expanded guidance to find out the truth of the matter for themselves.  They would rather get frustrated with those who have, and who care about people and their spiritual growth and tell people their experiences and suggest that people find out for themselves via the more ideal way. 

Hi Justin,

I too am going to stop posting about ACIM, sources etc. as there is just circularity to it (I'm reminded of the old Pink Floyd song 'Wish You Were Here'). Before I take my board break I would just make one point : it is Bruce's board and generally people come to it because they like his approach- his non-fear based ideas resonate with them; people who may be recovering from a fear-based upbringing for example. With respect, why not establish your own conversation board where people who share your concerns feel free to express themselves and debate about the nature of unfriendly influences ? Because every time I come back here after a break the same old chestnuts keep getting regurgitated ad nauseum. Please don't interpret this me saying as I think you should be banned or anything silly like that, it is Bruce's board not mine. People come here because they like Bruce's work not yours or mine.

David

I like a lot of the things Justin writes on this forum.

Justin, please keep posting.  If people don't want to read what you write they don't have to.

Realistically, not everybody in the World can have a forum.

My guess is that beings of love and light are okay with you posting here.

I used to be afraid to find out about unfriendly beings. Paradoxically, the more I've aloud myself to become aware of their presence the more I've overcome my fear of them.  Actually, this isn't paradoxical. It is a natural progression if one allows it. Eventually each of our Souls needs to reach the point where we aren't afraid even after we acknowledge that unfriendly influences exist.
heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 3:39pm:

I have been debating for a while whether to get ACIM for my Kindle, as I never read it.  The insights on this thread and others I've read to give me pause.  There was a connection of one of the editors as a consultant to the government for project MK Ultra (as stated before), a program concerned with programming a large number of people.  I don't like channeled work in general, though I did read Seth and Elias out of curiousity.  I don't like authoritarian texts which tell you how things are, in an all or nothing manner. 

One of the things I very much liked about Tolle's "The Power of Now" was how he presented the entire book as a set of questions and answers from his audience without just listing commandments, etc.   He give syou concrete exercises to elicit a state of pure being/perception, and they are really quite simple. 
And his logic is simple but clear.   I had a problem with his demonization of the human mind, but did understand his major thesis. 

I may still read ACIM, because I think I could do so with discernment and caution.  I do thank everyone for their take on it, and the discussion. 

M

recoverer wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:09pm:


I agree, many times Justin has really great things to say and I'm sure Dave was not telling him not to post.  However, I also agree with Dave.  This subject has been disected and redisected on this site I don't know how many times.

I've never read ACIM and have no interest in doing so, however there are some very good souls that have left this site because of the degrading comments made about ACIM.  These people were not brainwashed or programmed by it, but found some of the things written useful to their spiritual growth.

So this is another side of the coin.  The naysayers intentions to be helpful are many times actually hurtful to people.  It is always wise to respect the explorations of other people.  We are all on our own path and that path should be respected, otherwise instead of being helpful, you could be hurtful to others.

A couple years ago, out of curiosity I joined an ACIM forum.  The people there were not programmed or brainwashed, but just like most that come here, they were seekers looking for information and conversation with like minded folks.

K

Doc:

First of all, make certain you have a pillow around for when you fall asleep. 

Seriously, William Thetford was very involved with putting ACIM together. Here is the wikipedia article about him. The below is from the article.

"From 1971 to 1978 Thetford, along with David Saunders, headed the CIA mind control Project MKULTRA Subproject 130: Personality Theory."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thetford

DocM wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 6:52pm:

Albert,

I've never and likely never will be someone that gives any credence to channeled material.  Never the less, if you talk about it, even negatively... you promote it... advertise it, even if it is negative advertising.

Justin,

Lets not go there.  I remember you being in a bad place at one time as well.

Kathy

Kathy:

As I said elsewhere recently, I decided to not put an article on my site about ACIM because in that case I might've just let some people know that it exists.

That effect might also exist here to some degree, but I don't believe it is good to get to the point where you never can point out the questionable parts of channeled material. I don't believe life is set up in this World so that for this matter silence is a must.

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 9:07pm:

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 9:07pm:


  Yes, Kathy, and in a way it proves my point.  I would question how much that course was helping me at the time, because the when you are referring to was when i was just starting to question and trying to disentangle myself from that course, which i had previously invested a lot of energy and time into.  It took me awhile to disentangle myself from the effects of the subconscious programming i allowed to happen.  For awhile after, i thought and talked a lot about ego even though i had rejected that "teaching".

    While i've forgiven myself, i still remember and feel bad for what i said to you around that time.  However hurtful and inaccurate what i said was, i was still addressing an actual experience, not wildly accusing you of some severely negative thing out of the blue just because i started to question a book you liked, which is what happened with me and that other person.  Really think about that, and how it might feel to have someone say that you are a raper of women because you were honest with them about a book they got you into? 

  But, there was a lot more than that course and that friendship going south, going on at the time.   I had just been booted out of a forum, wherein most the people there i thought were my friends.  I was also getting different answers or reasons for my banishment.  I had some people telling me that what i said to Leila was perfectly appropriate and accurate, though a bit tough love, i had others tell me i was getting kicked out not because of that but because i was posting in a certain section of the forum, and still different reasons from others, and all the while i felt that this "friend" had been talking behind my back with others.

  It was upsetting to me at the time, and i spoke to you out of hurt and anger then.  Banishment is kind of a big thing with my karmic history and testing (putting it very mildly).  I also had my father, who is an alcoholic, move in to our place around that time.  It was extremely stressful because he was drinking and acting very irrational and negative because he was being influenced by unfriendly beings. 

  So yes, i was very uncentered around that time, and it showed and showed strongly.  But, i think perhaps i was dealing with more overtly stressful and uncentereing circumstances at the time than the friend who accused me of extremely negative and untruthful things, because i questioned a teaching they liked.   However, the one thing we had in common at the time was that damn course as Helen herself later referred to it.

    Also, i don't try to hide my negative, shadow side.  I'm about as honest, open and sincere a person you will ever meet.  What you see, is what you get with me.  I say what i think and feel out in the open, even to the detriment of my public image at times.  I have little concern with being perceived as "spiritual" by others according to the mainstream image of same. 

   

Agreed

Recoverer, if people can't handle opposing viewpoints, perhaps they should stick to .. forums where ACIM isn't enjoyed by some. Works both ways. Have your God. Have your PUL. Have your ACIM. Have your day without it being a total waste of makeup. There are discussions about topics, and there is perpetual nagging about them.

Recoverer, that was a response and yet the timeline has a potential for future nagging, or being unable to let go, stuck in a roundabout. Justin started the typed conversation, and here we are where intelligent and well thought out conversations can require but a few statements. Kudos for trying to be considerate!

Quote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awFleswtH2Y

Hi Lucy,

You bring up an important question.  One that I believe is essential to our understanding of not only the reality we find ourselves existing within, but the key to understanding the afterlife, as well as who we really are.

My first understanding that Consciousness is the basic reality and all else is illusion came from Dr. Karl Pribram back in the late 80's as I recall.  You may recall this was the era of the holographic model.  Essentially, Dr. Pribram says that basic reality is the energetic signature that the brain picks up through our senses.  Our brain then interprets the signature into the shape and color of an object, such as an apple.  What he means is that true reality is like the energy in a holographic laser beam that carries information.  That is what consciousness is, information.  Information is the fundamental reality of all that exists.

What we see as reality is more like the projected three dimensional picture of say an apple in the hologram.  The true reality is to be found in the energy that our senses pick up rather than in the objects we define as real.

Pribram's work shows that our brain acts like the hologram that projects the true reality of the energy beams into an illusory apple.  Our brain, using our five senses, picks up the energy field of whatever we bring our attention to in the moment and translates that energy field into an object.  The object we perceived represents the secondary reality.  It is only a signature of the deeper reality (consciousness or in the case of the holographic model, the energy beams) from which the projection of the object comes.  All our senses act together in a way to create the illusion of our world around us.

A simplified model is the basic reality of our world is energy.  However, if we go deeper, we fine our intent, which results from our consciousness, upon which our energy flow is based.  At an even deeper level we find our essence, which is the foundation of all reality.

Other scientists have continued to theorize our world is an illusion, a product of what I'll just call God Consciousness/Essence

Kathy

Hi Recoverer-

I've had a chance to reflect on the posts in this thread and I certainly wasn't calling for any type of censorship. I think a lot of the conflict could be taken out of the exchanges if we remind each other that what we write on this board are just perspectives or opinions but not objective facts. A simple substitute from a 'it is' to a 'I believe' or 'from my point of view' could make all the difference to how people perceive the debate i.e not interpreting it as an attack on their beliefs. For my part I realise that there is no reason people should take my views/opinions at face value so I tend to put in supporting examples from history, literature etc. (which can come across as over-intellectualising I admit).But ultimately it is just a meeting of perspectives from which (hopefully!) we all go away a bit richer; with none of us having a monopoly on truth.

   Oh, and to also mention, i'm not suspicious of all channeling or psychic sources like some here are.  I've found a number of sources that struck me as being from expanded guidance or from guidance and helpful and accurate in tendency. 

  For example, most of Bob Monroe's explorers i would put more or less in the expanded guidance, or at least guidance, category (to me, there is a potential difference between a regular ole guide and expanded guidance--the latter are the Elders, the Co-Creator Beings, the ones fully intune with Source and PUL consciousness and fully intune with our local expanded selves or the higher guides who are in direct communication with these and work on their behalf).

  What's interesting about these explorers is that none of them were making money or seeking notoriety in connection with this volunteer work with Bob.  They were just like Bob, intensely curious about the big pictures, and interested in increasing their knowns.  It also helps that they had Bob involved with facilitating some, as Bob was a fairly perceptive and mature person for the most part. 

  I think the combination of the above, helped in their process of attunement.

   I also think Bruce was more directly in touch with both guidance and expanded guidance.

  I think also the same for Cayce. 

  Many NDE's i've read have struck me that way. 

  So, i'm actually pretty open minded regarding channeling/psychic attunement to guidance, but after some experiences of being duped by "non guidance", i now apply discrimination and check sources more deeply, and would suggest the same for others pragmatically because i'm concerned with the spiritual development of this world.

  Consider this for a moment:  Most of us here know, care, practice, and/or believe in the concept and process of retrievals.

   What are retrievals mostly about at their core and essence?   A person primarily gets stuck by and through limiting beliefs or belief systems or a lack of attunement to Love.  A "retriever" or helper is just an individual who has a more expanded view, and has an influence on the person stuck to help convert their limiting belief(s) into more freeing, helpful and accurate ones plus in the case of the hells helps to raise their vibrations some by being attuned to Love and resonating them with that Love. 

  But this doesn't apply to only the nonphysical--it's just more acute there because thoughts and feelings are more directly and immediately reality there.   But we as humans get stuck too (you could say that humanity in general is stuck and in the process of getting retrieved), and again it's primarily about limited beliefs or belief systems and/or a lack of attunement to Love.   

  This is why it's so important to discriminate outer sources and spiritual authorities.  If the source behind same has negative intentions, they help build up limiting beliefs/belief systems which can keep aspects of self stuck and limited, just as much as folks in the nonphysical get stuck. 

  Really think about the whole process in a more holistic, broad, and long term view.  Humanity has the potential to be so, so, so much more and very joyous collectively, but in order for this to happen we have to drop a lot of limited beliefs, attune more to Love, and become wise to both the human and non human sources that deliberately try to keep us limited and stuck.

  Hi Bob,

  It's a pretty big subject.  I guess a good start is to have those general intentions and awareness.  Another good place to start is deeper meditation and the combo method i outlined of getting in touch with more expanded guidance. 

    I can't say i fully know and understand all there is to the process since i'm not in the position of being free of all limited beliefs, fully attuned to Love, and fully un stuck myself. 

   I'm not yet a "He/She" type, not fully free.  But i do and have gotten tips from those who are, and contrary to what some sources have implied, these consciousnesses are concerned with this world and the state of same, and would like to see it improve though they will never try to force same.  Sometimes i think i do try to force too much, and i've had that lack pointed out to me by the above.

  Since we are individuals, there will be some differences to our approach, livingness, or how we perceive.

   We are in very unusual times of change and potential.  There is a lot at stake in this cycle.  Humanity for the first time in a very, very long time, has the opportunity in a probable sense, to get it's act together and for MANY individuals to eventually become He/She types themselves. 

   For me, this is worth working towards, and being misunderstood in the process.

  Well and wisely said Bob.  Unfortunately, easier said than done in achieving that balance whilst wearing these silly human suits (nod to Donnie Darko).

  My fall back is, to treat others how i would like to be treated.  Yes, i know there are some extremes out there wherein the golden rule becomes more like the muddy rule...but speaking of the average person.