Conversation Board - A Holistic Look at Channeling

a channel

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #15 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 2:56pm

David, i decided to erase my other post for various reasons.

I will just briefly say and ask you this. Would you meditate under more ideal circumstances, ask and deeply intend to connect only to the most expanded and helpful, Loving and aware sources. Ask these for help and guidance, and ask these Loving, expanded sources to protect and shield you from any negative, or misleading sources.

Practice Bruce's feeling and remembering Love technique. Give sincere thanks for any and all help you receive.

And then ask about ACIM with no preconceptions? More specifically ask if it's from Jesus Christ, and ask if has a helpful, spiritual effect on people.

If you get an answer at some point, would you share it publicly?

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recoverer

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #16 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 2:59pm

Heisenberg:
I suppose there are some fundamentalist churches that also do good despite their limiting dogma. This doesn't mean that there isn't a better way.

Hugh Prather is ACIM teacher. Consider what he said below:

"A few years ago, I attended a gathering where I saw many of the people associated with the Course that Gayle and I had gotten to know in the 70's. As I said earlier, I am aware of no teaching that emphasizes innocence and unity in more straightforward terms than A Course in Miracles. I know of no teaching that ranks itself more clearly as just one of many, as a temporary aid only, and as helpful to some but not to all. A Course in Miracles simply does not present itself as a superior or even a permanent teaching, and, in my opinion, the heart of the teaching is that we must turn from our belief that we are individually "special" to the recognition that we are not only equal but one with each other and one with God.

What effect does the long-term study of such a teaching have on its students? I was surprised that after twenty years it was the opposite of what I expected. With two or three exceptions, everyone I saw at the gathering was far more separate and egocentric than they were when Gayle and I first met them. In fact, their egos were so large that many of them had lost the ability to carry on a simple conversation. They made pronouncements and listened deeply to no one. I was appalled, and when I returned home, I said to Gayle, "If this has happened to most of our Course friends, is there any chance it hasn't happened to us?"

The answer was that indeed it had happened to us. Even though we had long noticed the unhelpful effects of most religions and spiritual teachings on their students, we had thought that as Course students we were immune -- because the Course emphasizes reversing this very dynamic. If the dynamic is not the fault of the teaching or religion itself -- and in most cases it clearly is not -- what mistakes do students make that cause it?

When Gayle and I finally looked at ourselves honestly, we discovered that although we had been ministers and spiritual teachers for many years and had written over a dozen books on spiritual themes, we personally had not become kinder or even more sane through our devotion. We, like most individuals, started a spiritual path with the intention of becoming better people and finding ways to be truly helpful, only to move in the opposite direction. The more time and thought we had put into teaching and writing about our path, the more self-absorbed we had become. We had ended up less flexible, less forgiving, and less generous than we were when we first started our path!"

http://www.nhne.com/misc/food0001.html

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heisenberg69

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #17 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:10pm

Hi Justin,

I don't know Alysia at all so cannot comment on her motivations - I was just taking her at her word as an example of someone who had been apparently helped by ACIM.I remember the strength of her exchanges with Don. I agree with you that concepts such as 'separation is an illusion' from ACIM are not particularly original, being referenced in earlier texts - but I see that more as a strength rather than a weakness : the more diverse sources there are saying something the more likely it is to be true in my book. Regarding spirituality there is probably nothing new under the sun - certainly no copyright on 'big' truths.

I know very little about Edgar Cayce but would rather hear about why he inspires you rather than hearing why other sources don't do it for you ...

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heisenberg69

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #18 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:27pm

Recoverer- an excellent link and couldn't find anything to disagree with, later on he says:

'A Course in Miracles can survive in the 21st century, in fact it can transform the 21st century, if those who see the Reality it points to choose to extend themselves beyond their ego boundaries and make the interests of another their own. Awakening is not joining with some shining concept in the sky. It is joining with each other. It is lived and expressed in the hundreds of small encounters, errands, and tasks that fill each day. Only instant by instant do we choose to see our sameness, our equality, and our oneness with others. Only by loving do we wake to Love. Only by extending peace do we wake to Peace.'

Who can argue with that ?

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recoverer

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #19 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:34pm

Positive things can be said without attaching ACIM to such statements. I believe a person would have to be somewhat extreme to believe that ACIM holds the key to a positive World future. Such a stance suggests a cult-like attitude.

Hugh Prather has probably invested too much of himself in ACIM (as if he got caught in a trap) to easily separate himself from it now. Instead he'll find ways to defend it even though he found that it has effected people in a negative way.

heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:27pm:

Recoverer- an excellent link and couldn't find anything to disagree with, later on he says:

'A Course in Miracles can survive in the 21st century, in fact it can transform the 21st century, if those who see the Reality it points to choose to extend themselves beyond their ego boundaries and make the interests of another their own. Awakening is not joining with some shining concept in the sky. It is joining with each other. It is lived and expressed in the hundreds of small encounters, errands, and tasks that fill each day. Only instant by instant do we choose to see our sameness, our equality, and our oneness with others. Only by loving do we wake to Love. Only by extending peace do we wake to Peace.'

Who can argue with that ?

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heisenberg69

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #20 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:05pm

I think the point he was making was that the human ego can run rampant whatever the creed/teaching says; this applies to all religions, faiths or philosophies not just ACIM. As Don (Berserk) has said when the historical iniquities of the church have been pointed out (I paraphrase): 'don't judge a belief by the least of its adherents' !

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recoverer

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #21 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:23pm

It wouldn't be fair for Hugh Prather to claim that on the one hand ACIM can benefit people, and then blame it on the ego when people involved with the course are "somehow" efffected in a negative way.

That's the sort of thing dishonest gurus do. When their followers do well they (the gurus) take credit. When their followers do poorly, they blame it on the followers egos.

What a nice system the source of ACIM has in place. Whenever somebody "attacks" (one of the courses favorite words) the course the originators of the course can blame it on ego.

What if a fire and brimstone preacher blamed his flock's homophobia on their egos? Would that be a realistic defense?

Regarding least of adherants, Hugh Prather said that most of the follower he and his wife met during that meeting were effected in a negative way.

heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:05pm:

I think the point he was making was that the human ego can run rampant whatever the creed/teaching says; this applies to all religions, faiths or philosophies not just ACIM. As Don (Berserk) has said when the historical iniquities of the church have been pointed out (I paraphrase): 'don't judge a belief by the least of its adherents' !

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heisenberg69

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #22 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:58pm

'What if a fire and brimstone preacher blamed his flock's homophobia on their egos? Would that be a realistic defense?'

I don't think 'fire and brimstone' preachers normally worry about homophobia- except to worry there's not enough of it !

More seriously, though, maybe you read the passage differently to me but it just seems to be that the man is trying to be honest - if he was trying to paint a rose-tinted portrait of ACIM why mention the ego problems of the students at all ? Why not just say all is sweetness and light ? Are you saying he is both being honest and dishonest at the same time ?

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recoverer

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #23 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:30pm

Perhap instead of referring to homophobia, it would've been better if I referred to something such as fear of God.

Regarding Hugh Prather, despite the evidence he found amongst the followers he met with, he still continued to believe that the course is legit. This being the case, what is his explantion for why a significant number of course followers were more egotistical than usual?

The below is a part of Lesson 14 of ACIM. (Called, "God did not create a meaningless word.").

"The idea for today is of course, the reason why a meaningless World is impossible. What God did not create does not exist. And everything that does exist exists as He created it. The World you see has nothing to do with reality. It is of your own making, and it does not exist."

Later lesson 14 says:

"God did not create that war, and so it is not real.
God did not create that airplane crash, and so it is not real.
God did not create that disaster [specify], and so it is not real."

Back to what I'm saying, I believe the above provides proof of how I earlier stated that the Course tries to get people to be indifferent about the troubles in this World by brainwashing them to believe that it doesn't matter what happens in this World because it is "meaningless" (A word the Course uses repeatedly), unreal, doesn't exist.

Now if a Course presents itself as if it represents the absolute truth, a person decides to believe this is true, reads numerous words within the Course that say that this World isn't real and repeats affirmations that this World isn't real, is it possible that such a person might end up with the belief that he doesn't need to be concerned about the problems that exist in this World? Could such a belief lead to a lack of empathy that will limit how much such a person is able to live according to love?

One other point: Would a being of love and light present a 365 day one size fits all affirmation course?

heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:58pm:

'What if a fire and brimstone preacher blamed his flock's homophobia on their egos? Would that be a realistic defense?'

I don't think 'fire and brimstone' preachers normally worry about homophobia- except to worry there's not enough of it !

More seriously, though, maybe you read the passage differently to me but it just seems to be that the man is trying to be honest - if he was trying to paint a rose-tinted portrait of ACIM why mention the ego problems of the students at all ? Why not just say all is sweetness and light ? Are you saying he is both being honest and dishonest at the same time ?

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Rondele

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #24 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:39pm

Getting back to ACIM for a moment, if there's no moral distinction between our actions and they are all equal by virtue of the claim that they never took place to begin with, the obvious question is why bother with the life review?

The life review would be irrelevant since "bad" acts are illusory. Why experience the hurt we caused others by our words or deeds, if the hurt was not real.

Many people refer to the life review as a learning tool, but what's there to learn if the whole point of our life is to "experience"?

Seems a bit of a contradiction. In any case, real or illusory, I will continue to at least try to be kind to others and avoid during harm. I think I'll say thanks but no thanks to the free lunch offered by ACIM.

R

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heisenberg69

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #25 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:52pm

'Now if a Course presents itself as if it represents the absolute truth, a person decides to believe this is true, reads numerous words within the Course that say that this World isn't real and repeats affirmations that this World isn't real, is it possible that such a person might end up with the belief that he doesn't need to be concerned about the problems that exist in this World? Could such a belief lead to a lack of empathy that will limit how much such a person is able to live according to love?'

But this is my original point - this doesn't seem to be happening, prominent people influenced by ACIM such as Marianne Williamson and Jerry Jampolsky are very much concerned with the world's problems and acting out of unconditional love. Nor to my knowledge is there evidence that there are there people going out on crime sprees after reading ACIM and believing 'nothing is real' or whatever. Such is the brouha which ACIM routinely invokes on this board one is tempted to believe that 'Mein Kampf' would get a better reception !

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a channel

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #26 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:10pm

David, it need not be so extreme as that. Really. Most people that are attracted to spiritual teachings that talk about the importance of Love and Oneness, are generally good hearted people.

They don't become monsters or necessarily totally apathetic even if they are subconsciously influenced by a false course. But, they can and do pick up limiting beliefs or subconscious suggestions, that they will have to disentangle themselves from eventually. I've talked to a few people that are into that course. All of them focus on a lot on "ego", and are very attached to this course and talk about it constantly.

David wrote, Quote:

I know very little about Edgar Cayce but would rather hear about why he inspires you rather than hearing why other sources don't do it for you

Ok, but i would note that i'm more interested in what guidance tells you about certain sources than intellectual defense of them. And i asked you first. I can talk about the above, if you really want, in another post.

You have nothing to lose by taking up the challenge i presented to you. I'm asking for maybe 10 minutes or so of your time. I've had a number of experiences where i had certain preconceptions, but decided to bring the issue to expanded guidance under more ideal circumstances (similar to as i outlined to you in my last post), and was told something differently than what i had preconceived.

This kind of "checking" is important-- it is one of the few ways that we as humans can overcome limiting beliefs and belief systems and figure out the truth of a matter beyond the illusions, chimeras, and smoke screens that our intellectual minds and personalities easily get caught up in.

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #27 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:21pm

Regarding statements that God does not create a meaningless world, and this that and the other thing is not real, consider this.

Those who have been through trauma (and each of us has, in one way or another) or who have phobias (and each of us has them, in one way or another), sometimes a helpful treatment is to lovingly expose the person to that or a similar situation again, and to help the individuals reframe the past (which they filter through their own perceptions, their own interpreters) in a slightly different way.

Sometimes it seems that people do this on their own, to replay the same events over and over until they are able to find a different way to look at it. I have done this myself. We routinely do this in our dreaming life. To lovingly examine what our own interpretations of what is real and what is not real can be helpful to some people.

I know that I have done this and been helped immensely, and have been able to reframe my perceptions of other people in a kinder way to them and to myself. What I do is to look at the words and say to myself, now, how can this be true? Is there a way that this can be true? It is like a puzzle.

Not everyone sees the puzzle the same way or figures it out in the same "logical" manner that someone else might do. So, to take the words and spin them the way you might do is your interpretation, not necessarily someone else's.

When I do that exercise, Recoverer, your example, I feel it is true. I see where my own interpretations of certain events are flawed, and I can better understand my own thinking.

Now, I don't think it is always a good idea to focus on only one exercise or source for your whole life, which is why I switch around. I try different sources on for size, see what works for me. If it doesn't work for me, time to put it down, or maybe just try something new because, well, why not?

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #28 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:23pm

Heisenberg:

It is true that the below doesn't happen for some people, but do you know if it doesn't happen for anyone?

In the 1980s I was involved with Guru-based non-dual teachings (ACIM and nonduality have a lot in common). I've heard more than one guru express the viewpoint that the World isn't real so one doesn't need to be concerned about the suffering that takes place within it. There was this attitude that only an ignorant person would concern himself with the suffering that takes place within a World that doesn't exist.

Such people wouldn't do things such as vote because it doesn't make sense to vote in a World that isn't real.

I don't remember where, but when it comes to the possible ACIM/Mk-Ultra connection, some sources say that Mk-Ultra might've created things such as ACIM in order to make liberal minded people indifferent so they wouldn't do things that oppose conservative agendas. Who is more likely to read ACIM? A conservative fundamentalist Christian or a liberal new ager?

If ACIM is misleading in more than one way (as I listed on an earlier post), is it really a good thing that people like Marianne Williamson try to make this World a better place through a vehicle like ACIM?

Regarding Mein Kamp, well that book had and continues to have "real" negative effects. The book and its negative effects don't go away by affirming/asserting, "that book and its results aren't real because everything God creates is perfect."

Also, at least ways Hitler didn't claim that Mein Kamp comes from Jesus.

heisenberg69 wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:52pm:

'Now if a Course presents itself as if it represents the absolute truth, a person decides to believe this is true, reads numerous words within the Course that say that this World isn't real and repeats affirmations that this World isn't real, is it possible that such a person might end up with the belief that he doesn't need to be concerned about the problems that exist in this World? Could such a belief lead to a lack of empathy that will limit how much such a person is able to live according to love?'

But this is my original point - this doesn't seem to be happening, prominent people influenced by ACIM such as Marianne Williamson and Jerry Jampolsky are very much concerned with the world's problems and acting out of unconditional love. Nor to my knowledge is there evidence that there are there people going out on crime sprees after reading ACIM and believing 'nothing is real' or whatever. Such is the brouha which ACIM routinely invokes on this board one is tempted to believe that 'Mein Kampf' would get a better reception !

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Re: A Holistic Look at Channeling
Reply #29 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:31pm

Roger:

Related to what you wrote below, one of the reasons a higher realm would be heavenly is because its inhabits are wise enough to understand the difference between positive activity and negative activity. They understand that it is very valuable, meaningful and purposeful to treat others with love and respect, rather than in a negative way.

Albert

rondele wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:39pm:

Getting back to ACIM for a moment, if there's no moral distinction between our actions and they are all equal by virtue of the claim that they never took place to begin with, the obvious question is why bother with the life review?

The life review would be irrelevant since "bad" acts are illusory. Why experience the hurt we caused others by our words or deeds, if the hurt was not real.

Many people refer to the life review as a learning tool, but what's there to learn if the whole point of our life is to "experience"?

Seems a bit of a contradiction. In any case, real or illusory, I will continue to at least try to be kind to others and avoid during harm. I think I'll say thanks but no thanks to the free lunch offered by ACIM.

R

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