Conversation Board - The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden

BobMoenroe

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #15 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 11:14am

Alan,

Quote:

You think both Don and I are talking rubbish!

You're thinking that, and I know this how? Because I'm not thinking it, that's how. The projection is yours and it's directed at you. And Don. Is there any truth to this? Could it be helpful for you to be aware of this? Do with it what you will, if anything.

Good answer for the chinese "curse".

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #16 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 11:41am

Quote:

Alan,

Quote:

You think both Don and I are talking rubbish!

You're thinking that, and I know this how? Because I'm not thinking it, that's how. The projection is yours and it's directed at you. And Don. Is there any truth to this? Could it be helpful for you to be aware of this? Do with it what you will, if anything.

Good answer for the chinese "curse".

If you smiley indicates you want to be friendly instead of trying to make a fool of me, I would like to dialogue with you, you might find that I am a very informed and interesting person on all things esoteric. I have also written extensively on many subjects and not only talked the talk but walked the walk, as was the case of my remote viewing some time ago on the forum, which I might bring back for those who are interested in this type of thing

Alan

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Alan McDougall

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BobMoenroe Ex Member	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #17 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 12:57pm Hi Alan, My avatar is suited for being straightforward so probably better to stop at this very point. Hope our back and forth was somehow worthwhile for you, I at least learnt something and for that specifically I am thankful. Thanks.
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1796 Senior Member Offline Posts: 440	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #18 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 6:25pm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
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1796

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #19 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 7:27pm

Personally I don't see any enigma in the Genesis creation story, it makes good sense to me, no contradictions in itself, and see it as symbolic and allegorical - representative of far greater and abstract forces and happenings which are hard for us to comprehend as they are but which can be glimpsed symbolically and are best communicated and preserved through symbolic stories like that. I do think that gently musing on such stories and symbols/allegory/parables can be a good mind stretch.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that one day symbolism will be recognised as being as much a science and universal language as mathematics, existent in its own right. But not until its code is cracked. It seems that currently in regard to understanding symbolism we are barely touching the subject, like the Australian Aborigines before white settlement who had no concept of mathematics and who's counting system consisted of one, two, many, and many-many. Them back then trying to do mathematics is like us now trying to decipher symbols.

It doesn't take much though, just an introduction to a concept, in the right way, at the right time, in its order, under the right circumstances, and some necessity or urgency to spice it along, and new sciences are born and grasped.

crossbow

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #20 - Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:08am

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Personally I don't see any enigma in the Genesis creation story, it makes good sense to me, no contradictions in itself, and see it as symbolic and allegorical - representative of far greater and abstract forces and happenings which are hard for us to comprehend as they are but which can be glimpsed symbolically and are best communicated and preserved through symbolic stories like that. I do think that gently musing on such stories and symbols/allegory/parables can be a good mind stretch.

I'll go out on a limb here and predict that one day symbolism will be recognised as being as much a science and universal language as mathematics, existent in its own right. But not until its code is cracked. It seems that currently in regard to understanding symbolism we are barely touching the subject, like the Australian Aborigines before white settlement who had no concept of mathematics and who's counting system consisted of one, two, many, and many-many. Them back then trying to do mathematics is like us now trying to decipher symbols.

It doesn't take much though, just an introduction to a concept, in the right way, at the right time, in its order, under the right circumstances, and some necessity or urgency to spice it along, and new sciences are born and grasped.

crossbow

Good post, if we take the story in a more literal sense, then God had to allow them to fail the test, in order for humanity to have a free will

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Alan McDougall

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1796

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #21 - Feb 11^th, 2014 at 7:36am

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:08am:

... if we take the story in a more literal sense, then God had to allow them to fail the test, in order for humanity to have a free will

Yes, its about freewill and its potential to learn.

It also covers the nature of the individual human soul, and the structure of creation and of collective life, and the nature of relationships between life and fundamental laws and guidelines for best progress. Probably the most compact and fullest symbolic story ever told.

I wouldn't call it a test and a fail though, more a threshold clearly marked, the options and their consequences prior stated, and the order given not to cross the threshold, so that those who do would be functioning and learning by their own freewill from the outset.

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DocM

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #22 - Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:31am

To me the story of the garden of Eden is a pure allegory and may be uninterpreted on more than one level. But for me, it is about God's love for his creation in allowing individual people to separate themselves out to explore existence. The idea of a divine punishment is, to my mind ridiculous.

In the garden, there is a symbiosis, as there is in heaven. Adam's initial state is one of unity with everything in the garden, and no physical ailment or need. This is much like a description of heaven. God has a plan to allow individual people to explore what it is to be apart from the whole, but he wants them to do it on their own, and in the end, share the experience. Separation is artificial, it is not real, but in the physical world, outside of Eden, it appears to be real. This is suffering. God sets the tree of knowledge in the garden, knowing full well that man will decide to explore this separate existence. I agree with Don, that he rejoices in the decision, even if the deck was stacked.

The tree of knowledge is knowledge of the physical world, and the false dichotomies it contains. So, in some ways, the wisdom of unity before the fall trumps the tree of knowledge in spiritual understanding. But be that as it may, Adam decides, whether seduced by the serpent or not, with his own choice (free will) to eat of the apple.

The idea that man must be banished from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever is ludicrous. The state of separation when we believe ourselves apart from God, love and the whole is incompatible with Eden. Adam and Eve, by separating consciousness out into individuals banished themselves! In doing so, they created their own consciousness system (earth) and all the suffering that is now in it due to the belief systems that support it. When God mentioned the trials to come, it was simply to state a fact, not to inflict punishment as people misinterpret. The inner heavens have no disease, no pain, and no physical death because they have no concept of separation from God and love.

If it were possible to stay alive indefinitely in a human form, compressed into flesh, without the full ability to grow and manifest with mind, how sad would that be? Darn straight, I would keep my kids away from the tree of life if it maintained the human form forever, as we are meant to learn while in this virtual world on earth, but not to be imprisoned here.

I think it unfortunate that people take the story so literally, though I admit that there can be teaching points about honesty, betrayal, and love to be found, even on that literal level.

M

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #23 - Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:51am

DocM wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:31am:

To me the story of the garden of Eden is a pure allegory and may be uninterpreted on more than one level. But for me, it is about God's love for his creation in allowing individual people to separate themselves out to explore existence. The idea of a divine punishment is, to my mind ridiculous.

In the garden, there is a symbiosis, as there is in heaven. Adam's initial state is one of unity with everything in the garden, and no physical ailment or need. This is much like a description of heaven. God has a plan to allow individual people to explore what it is to be apart from the whole, but he wants them to do it on their own, and in the end, share the experience. Separation is artificial, it is not real, but in the physical world, outside of Eden, it appears to be real. This is suffering. God sets the tree of knowledge in the garden, knowing full well that man will decide to explore this separate existence. I agree with Don, that he rejoices in the decision, even if the deck was stacked.

The tree of knowledge is knowledge of the physical world, and the false dichotomies it contains. So, in some ways, the wisdom of unity before the fall trumps the tree of knowledge in spiritual understanding. But be that as it may, Adam decides, whether seduced by the serpent or not, with his own choice (free will) to eat of the apple.

The idea that man must be banished from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever is ludicrous. The state of separation when we believe ourselves apart from God, love and the whole is incompatible with Eden. Adam and Eve, by separating consciousness out into individuals banished themselves! In doing so, they created their own consciousness system (earth) and all the suffering that is now in it due to the belief systems that support it. When God mentioned the trials to come, it was simply to state a fact, not to inflict punishment as people misinterpret. The inner heavens have no disease, no pain, and no physical death because they have no concept of separation from God and love.

If it were possible to stay alive indefinitely in a human form, compressed into flesh, without the full ability to grow and manifest with mind, how sad would that be? Darn straight, I would keep my kids away from the tree of life if it maintained the human form forever, as we are meant to learn while in this virtual world on earth, but not to be imprisoned here.

I think it unfortunate that people take the story so literally, though I admit that there can be teaching points about honesty, betrayal, and love to be found, even on that literal level.

M

Hi Matthew,

You are right on nearly all points in my opinion, especially the silly idea of a being living forever on a place like earth. The flow of entropy would prevent this from happening, indeed even the energy output of one single

human being,

given enough time

would consume all the energy in the universe.

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Alan McDougall

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carl

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #24 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23am

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums.

He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #25 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 3:50am

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23am:

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums.

He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl

You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer.

Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs.

I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet.

If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate.

The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it

I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large.

I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum.

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Alan McDougall

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carl

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #26 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 5:22am

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 3:50am:

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23am:

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums.

He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl

You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer.

Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs.

I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet.

If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate.

The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it

I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large.

I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum.

Alan said, " I have only opened one blog and website in an effort how to learn to use the internet."

A downright lie!! I've read many posts from you that you have posted on blogs and websites you created over the last ten years and before which you have now deleted.

I have also read many of your mentally dysfunctional posts that you have posted on other peoples forum/websites and groups.

So lets cut to the chase. Here's another post of yours in a science forum just last month, January 2014. You got no replies! Don't lie and treat me like a fool and idiot! Blessings and Love. Carl

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/81247-a-hypothetical-warning-from-planet-eart...;

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DocM

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #27 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 7:42am

Carl,

Your personal medical or psychiatric history is no business of mine. If you were arrested or a bully in kindergarten, I am not interested in that either. The same with any poster on this forum.

I take anyone's posting for what it says. If I am not interested in it or have nothing to add, I let it go. Why not live and let live? If a post is inappropriate, you can bring that up or use the moderator feedback system.

Alan, you should be honored that Carl follows you with such groupie-like zeal; it appears he is your number one fan.

Carl, I am not sure how making it personal will help the discussions on the forum.

Matthew

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #28 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 8:49am

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 5:22am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 3:50am:

carl wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23am:

Come off it guy's. I've been reading Alan posts on his many blogs and websites, over the last decade, of which most are now defunct-deleted. I've also read many of his posts on other Spirituality Forums.

He suffers from chronic and acute mental illness, and is on industrial strength psychiatric medication. He told us so in his past posts. So how about giving him a break! Blessing and Love, Carl

You make it sound as if I am insane which I am not, many great men suffered from the bipolar disorder and without them the world would have been much poorer.

Industrial strength psychiatrist medication, nonsense!! I am on Epilim and a mild antidepressant medication Venlor and have never been on any anti- psychotic drugs.

I have opened only one blog and website in an effort to learn how to use the internet.

If you had to post something personal about me on an open forum like this one at least make your information accurate.

The great people on this forum have always been kind to me and given me a break if they felt I needed it

I really don't know the purpose of this post, but it really makes me want to leave the forum and go elsewhere where they don't assume I am a basket case that the little men in white should come and remove to an institution for the safety of the community at large.

I think in Doc (Matthew) we have a real medical doctor on the forum.

Alan said, " I have only opened one blog and website in an effort how to learn to use the internet."

A downright lie!! I've read many posts from you that you have posted on blogs and websites you created over the last ten years and before which you have now deleted.

I have also read many of your mentally dysfunctional posts that you have posted on other peoples forum/websites and groups.
[http://afterlife-knowledge.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/bold.gifs]
[b]~~So lets cut to the chase. Here's another post of yours in a science forum just last month, January 2014. You got no replies! Don't lie and treat me like a fool and idiot! Blessings and Love. Carl~~

In my opinion you are the hurtful liar here, you end your posts with "Blessings and Love" but you are full of spite hate and out to catch other people in their frailties.

And Matthew is right, why did you follow an obvious madman like me, all over the internet for a full decade, it makes me think you should join me next time I am confined to the nuthouse.

Anyway until you leave this forum or are booted off I don't have to take personal insults from a person like you who appears to just want to disrupt an otherwise friendly forum.

I made a bad mistake when I posted about my 30 year battle with manic depression on the internet. This debilitating ailment almost cost me my family, my job and my life due to suicide.

The reason I put the history of my suffering due to manic depression is because I wanted to help others who suffered like me from this appalling malady also. Again it was an obvious bad error on my part, which I cannot take back and now I have to deal with vultures like you who try to eat the flesh off my my psyche.

The people on this forum who have known me for many years now, are aware of my bipolar illness, because I have posted it here years ago. Like most of us who are interested in the mystical, unexplained and the afterlife, we are all a little odd or crazy.

Of course you carl must be perfectly balanced in every sense, satisfied with your state of being, one that has never ever told even the tiniest white fib, this perplexes me as to why you haunt spiritual based forums?

Guys let me know when this unpleasant excuse for a human being has left the forum or has been booted off and I will come back and hopefully engage in meaningful dialogue with the rest of you, nice people!

[b]
I admit before man and God that I am an imperfect being, not like carl who is perfect in every way![/b]

Until then goodby

God Bless

Alan

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Alan McDougall

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1796 Senior Member Offline Posts: 440	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #29 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:17am Ten years is long pursuit.
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