Conversation Board - The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden

Alan McDougall

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The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:36am

I have been away for a good while from the forum, but thought I would bring up this subject

The Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and GOD the Benevolent

I know the story of the Garden and Eden and the fall of man are thought to be a mythical account of a people long past in the mists of time, but I base this essay on the literal reading of the Book of Genesis and progress from there.

Remember that Adams name means "Man or Humanity! Thus the story about Adam and Eve is also about all of humanity still to be born

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"

Note; The tree of knowledge of Good and evil, so Evil existed before Adam. "Adam" also represents entire humanity, still to be born and how these still to be born, would have to relate to God.

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?
I hear a loud reply from the Congregation "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots".

It its partly true that when God created Adam and then humanity that God did give Adam/humanity a free will and not want Adam/humanity to be robots, controlled by him by some means of remote control, making them into mindless entities ,always on his beck and call a mere toy for God to play with.

In this scenario, God would have had to constantly observing mankind’s ever action , decision and thought and forcing them to do only right things, by manipulating Adam/Humanity, from also doing wrong things, before Adam/Eve/Humanity could act on what they wanted to do , or even before they had thought about doing an unsafe action Thus without a free will Adam /humanity) would have been forced by God to act and think and perform like his puppet, into doing exactly what He wanted them to do.

If God had not given Adam/humanity a free will, God been a Holy Perfect God would have had to investigate every act of Adam/humanities their every thought and intervene on very single moment even before they might have about it, every action or decision made by Adam/humanity would have been first have had to be vetted and approved by God, before he would have allowed Adam/humanity to do what they wanted to do.

God would have to act with the whole of mankind in this way, because he is Holy and could not tolerate wrong in his perfect domain. He would have had to prevent them from even contemplating an act to sin or come to any harm sadly in this case Adam/Humanity would have never known that they were existing and living a life of unimaginable wonder, beauty perfection of Paradise, because Adam/humanity would have had anything to compare their lives with in this heavenly place

However this is not my full explanation God could easily given Adam absolute free rain and said to him "Adam your can do anything you want without any reservations"

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test".

Nevertheless, God, in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he "knows they are going to fail, why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age?

Yes absolutely as I will describe later in this essay!

Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Isaiah Capt. 45 Verse 7 G-D says "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create "evil" I God do all these things. God made everything so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve had been left in the Garden of Eden, remained there and obeyed God by not eating the forbidden fruit. In this hypothetical situation, God would have known that Adam and Eve were going to obey Him and after their obedience of passing the test allowed them to existed forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want..

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc .

Therefore, after countless years paradise would become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Adam's and Eve’s offspring would then have existed forever in this a one-sided unchallenging reality in Eden, never knowing or appreciated the wonder of eternal life, because they would not know what death was, or how really beautiful the paradise they existed in because, they would never experienced the opposite. But God knew in his infinite wisdom that to become like him they must know evil, pain and sorrow to become fully functional free thinking beings similar to him in consciousness and indeed co- creators of their own domain and reality after death.

To conclude God was being fair with Adam and Eve/humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Humanity can look back on a "paradise lost with a longing to for the eternal wonder and beauty of the original Eden, which they would love and rejoice as paradise regained

God however made a plan to rejoin him in Jesus Christ the lord, by free choice and with the full knowledge that heaven is an unimaginable wonder beautiful place of everlasting life.

Thus we now exists in a universe of duality

Good and evil
Light and dark
Truth and lie
Deception and honesty
Love and hate
War and Peace
Positive and negative
Faith and despair
Holiness and depravity
Warm and hot
Life and death

You must know the negative to appreciate the positive!

Alan McDougall

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Alan McDougall

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BobMoenroe

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #1 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 9:23am

Hi Alan,

Quote:

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a benevolent Holy God of light and love?

Explain evil as stemming from satan, meddling ETs or a grumpy neighbour?

Quote:

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden Geneses Chap2 verse 17, where God says to Adam, that dam may eat of any tree except for the "tree of knowledge of good and evil

"You will certainly die" is a bit harsh if knowing it's going to happen regardless, and at the same time try to block free will by presenting false knowledge about the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Quote:

It is true that God is all-knowing, thus he knew before hand that Adam was going to fail the test and eat the forbidden fruit as urged of by his wife Eve, the name Eve means “out of man” and she was a reflection of all woman still to be born and how woman would interact with God all down the history of the world, just like it did for Adam her husband.

Allegedly the wife was made as a suitable helper. Maybe to cook home made meals, clean the house, iron the man's work pants, and care for the kids while the man relaxes in the chair reading and writing on the Conversation Board on his apple ipad.

Quote:

So why did God give Adam and Eve a test he knew they would fail? , it does no seem fair at first glance?
I hear a loud reply from the Congregation "because He wanted us to have a free will and not be robots.

Not everybody has the luxury of being in a congregation, which can also be a robotic experience. Can imagine the answer from a crowd being in the form of a common question. But not sure what the question is yet.

Quote:

However this is not my full explanation God could easily given Adam absolute free rain and said to him "Adam your can do anything you want without any reservations

If rain is free mankind/humanity can do without any water reservations. Wink

Quote:

Surely, God could simply have give Adam a free will and allow him to anything he wanted to do without the "necessity of any test.

Or safer tests, gradually increasing in scope with added responsibility, until the final test(s).

Quote:

Of course on first glance this seems wonderful but think about it a little longer This state of eternal infinite never ending sugary perfection, would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years a hundred thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold, they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate the joy and taste of food, never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water , never knowing hate the would not know what love was etc.

..and never having experienced the pleothora of darker actions which makes hating a breeze.

Quote:

Therefore, after countless years paradise would become a boring never changing hell to them. Therefore, God, in his infinite wisdom and love, simply had to banish them into the world or toil sorrow and hardship, in order for humanity to truly appreciate paradise, because they had experienced suffering, pain, and sorrow in this mortal world.

Getting used to working hard, isn't a paradise then going to become boring? Can a number of individuals from the group of humanity truly appreciate a paradise even if the rest don't?

Quote:

To conclude God was being fair with Adam and Eve/humanity and did give them the test, which he knew they would fail. God in deep and profound sorrow had drive them out from the paradise of Eden , into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

Could also have expanded eden to make room for a fenced in area which the smell of sweet orange and myrrh would be carried with the wind into, to remind the inhabitants of perpetual night of a paradise lost. And no need then for sorrow as humanity wouldn't have to leave.

Lies don't have to be appreciated, but why hate them?

Quote:

You must know the negative to appreciate the positive!

And areas between too warm and too cold.

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #2 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am

Hi Bob,

Now you have shown how stupid I am, that I cant spell and how much better you great mind is than my little pathetic one is. I think I will take leave of this forum , of which unlike you I have been a member of for many years and go elsewhere , where I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

Next time you respond to someones thread, make an effort to give an intelligent response instead of this inane nonsense!

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Alan McDougall

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BobMoenroe

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #3 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 12:35pm

Hi again Alan,

The first paragraph in your response is imo mostly about what you're thinking of yourself and what to do, and the second what you're thinking about me, and what you want me to do. Does that make any sense?

Does it make sense that I or someone else here write how I/they think and see, not necessarily how it is, or has anything to do with you, even if the first response would have made sense to you?

On a scale from 1 to 2, or even 5, how sure are you that I actually think anyone is cupid for making cyclops?

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Berserk2

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #4 - Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:43pm

Welcome back, Alan!

In my view, the story of Adam and Eve makes sense once it is understood as the birth of conscience, and not as the story of the Fall. The Serpent's temptation illustrates an essential trait of evil--the use of a truth to deceive by setting up a lie. The Serpent correctly notes that if the couple eat the forbidden fruit, they will "become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil." This truth is used to set up the lie that disobedience will not lead to death.

In fact, God celebrates, with the divine counsel, the fact that the couple have " become like us, knowing the difference between good and evil (3:22)." The couple's need to test limits like a small child has made them moral creatures through the birth of conscience. All along, the divine plan was to induce disobedence! Paul understands the story in this way in Romans 11:32: "God locked all people into disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all." Notice the verb "locked" and its implication that Adam and Eve's disobedience was unavoidable.

Don

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #5 - Feb 9^th, 2014 at 3:46am

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:43pm:

Welcome back, Alan!

In my view, the story of Adam and Eve makes sense once it is understood as the birth of conscience, and not as the story of the Fall. The Serpent's temptation illustrates an essential trait of evil--the use of a truth to deceive by setting up a lie. The Serpent correctly notes that if the couple eat the forbidden fruit, they will "become like God, knowing the difference between good and evil." This truth is used to set up the lie that disobedience will not lead to death.

In fact, God celebrates, with the divine counsel, the fact that the couple have " become like us, knowing the difference between good and evil (3:22)." The couple's need to test limits like a small child has made them moral creatures through the birth of conscience. All along, the divine plan was to induce disobedence! Paul understands the story in this way in Romans 11:32: "God locked all people into disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all." Notice the verb "locked" and its implication that Adam and Eve's disobedience was unavoidable.

Don

Hi Don unlike Bob, you make sense, I agree with what you have written, especially that Adam and Eve's was unavoidable, this had to be allowed by God for his divine plan for humanity to take place

Thank you!

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Alan McDougall

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BobMoenroe Ex Member	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #6 - Feb 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am Alan, though Don and I view things differently, I can also make sense of his post in this thread possibly because the artistic licence also contains a sense of distinction. Good for you that you snapped out of victimhood so that you can live in interesting times.
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a channel

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #7 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 1:38am

This allegorical story in the Bible is multi leveled, with different layers and meanings to it.

To understand this account more fully, you have to understand that what some have translated as "God" from the original Hebrew and other Semitic languages is NOT singular "being" or even general creative force as some may think in terms of a "Source" or what not.

Elohim is a plural, and Elohim often seem to be describing in the OT and NT what other cultures referred to as "Sky Gods" aka E.T.'s (and at other times to a much bigger concept of Co-Creator Beings).

These are E.T.'s with genetic manipulation capability and there were and have always been different groups involved with the evolution of humanity.

Some with our higher intentions in mind, and some who let themselves get mis lead into selfishness and unconcern with principles of Oneness and Love and that of harmony and balance.

The "Serpent" in same, represents both the general force or consciousness of rebellion in relation to the above Creative Forces or Source and the Light, which originally happened in Spirit long before the physical Earth was even a thought in the Co-Creator's mind AND...

Also literally represents one of those Elohim groups who has long been in the ways of rebellion towards that of Oneness, Love, harmony and balance. Their conception, their will of what should or shouldn't be done or enacted is all that matters to them. They think themselves a law unto themselves, and they don't care who get's hurt in the seeking of their goals. They are naught but our wayward brothers, parts of Source and the Whole that rebelled long ago and got stuck within the physical and corrupted a very old race of beings.

Today, in modern culture they are known as the "Reptilian" E.T.'s. Besides snakes and serpents, they have also been referred to as dragon in the the Bible.

One of their issues has long been, being sexually involved with us, and it seems particularly the Reptilian males involved with human females. Even today, Reptilian males fool, mislead, and skew human females to have sex with them. (not so different i suppose than a lot of human males as well, but more extreme).

The other E.T. groups, the wiser and less seflish ones, realized how limiting and unproductive this external influence was, and told them these it should not be allowed.

The sort of head honcho of these Elohim, whom is the Creator Being of this Reality got involved with this Earth drama on many levels, and has limited their involvement with humans. He still allows some interaction, because on one hand this wayward Reptilian group is both our Karmic attraction and also perhaps a necessary testing force at times.

We must meet what we have attracted through our own error and imbalance, and we have many similarities to this group. Out of many E.T. groups, they more individualistic than many of the others, though a bit more group minded than we are.

Adam and Eve represent and correspond to both actual individuals around a long time ago, and also to the new races that were being developed by the evolved E.T.s under the direction of the Co Creator Being. Genetic refinement, because there was some genetic and spirit tampering on Earth in long ages past, which led to undesirable and limiting genetic influences in forms that consciousnesses were getting stuck within.

In fact, the Creator Being himself, incarnated into one of these new and more genetically pure* human forms and allowed himself to be led into the ways of selfishness so that he could get entangled in this mess and become a pattern of human growth back to Oneness with the Source and with Love.

This is why the NT refers to Jesus as both the first Adam and the last Adam. Jesus's Disk, had projected an aspect of itself as "Adam" so long ago, and as Jesus completed his process of being the ultimate example and standard.

He went through the rounds like all of us. He had lifetimes of forgetfulness, of being limited, of being selfish and unbalanced, of having karma to meet. As Jesus, the last Adam, he over came all as a human born of a woman, yet called "the only Son of God" not because he was the only child of the Source within consciousness BUT because his physical male body was the only one created by the purely Creative forces and not by the typical means of copulation between a man and a woman.

This is why he is referred as the only begotten.

And i very much disagree with Don's assessment that disobedience in general that was something fostered or sought after.

This is ONLY true in relation to the individual Adam and his companion, who again, had to let himself get led in the ways of selfishness so that he could get stuck to some extent himself. Here was a radiantly and completely pure Light being, a Co-Creator God who could manifest any form for himself.

How could he help humanity without trying to get stuck and mired into the physical reality himself?

So, it WAS planned for him in the particular, but NOT for us in the general. In fact, i'm pretty sure the Logos had wished and hoped that it's children and it's brethren had chosen more wisely and had not gotten so far of course, and the beauty and harmony of his Creation gotten so distorted and imbalanced.

What we see of and in this world today of suffering and despair, is but a shadow of some of these much more ancient times. But this world has long been an extreme one, and long been in the dark, and long have been the retrieval efforts here. We are so very glad that we are coming to a period and cycle that humanity may finally fully awaken from the nightmare it has imagined and co-created for itself, and become the Light beings in physical form that we were meant to be.

Some will see this as perhaps an exercise in creative writing and imagination, but those with ears to hear will feel the truth in their souls of what i speak and i know of what i speak having been involved with this retrieval effort since the very beginning.

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« Last Edit: Feb 10^th, 2014 at 3:20pm by N/A »

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #8 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 8:09am

Quote:

Alan, though Don and I view things differently, I can also make sense of his post in this thread possibly because the artistic licence also contains a sense of distinction. Good for you that you snapped out of victimhood so that you can live in interesting times.

I have never been a victim of anything! You also insult Don in a less obvious and subtle way than than you did me. There has never been a time since the beginning of human history that was not interesting.

You think both Don and I are talking rubbish!

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Alan McDougall

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Rondele Ex Member	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #9 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:55am Hi Alan- Welcome back to the board. Do you still do remote viewing? R
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1796 Senior Member Offline Posts: 440	Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden Reply #10 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:56am Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am: ... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse. Aw diddums.
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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #11 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:05am

rondele wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:55am:

Hi Alan-

Welcome back to the board.

Do you still do remote viewing?

R

Hi Rondele,

Nice to hear from you again, I have not done any remote viewing for a while , but have been very active elsewhere on
physics, astronomy and philosophical forums as well as writing about my experiences during life.

Keep Well

Alan

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Alan McDougall

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #12 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:08am

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am:

... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

Aw diddums.

If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion!

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Alan McDougall

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1796

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #13 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:29am

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:08am:

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am:

... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

Aw diddums.

If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJSp0XeGUU

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Alan McDougall

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Re: The Enigma of evil in the garden of Eden
Reply #14 - Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:47am

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:29am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 10:08am:

1796 wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

Alan McDougall wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:57am:

... I don't have to endure this type of meaningless abuse.

~~Aw diddums~~.

If you are unable to dialogue, with intelligent members of the forum, keep quiet until you have something real to add to the forum, or buzz off in my opinion!

~~http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJSp0XeGUU~~

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Alan McDougall

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