I don't understand why Jesus' death was necessary to save the world.

God didn't actually "give" his only begotten Son, in a sense he only lent him to the world since 3 days later Jesus returned to the Father.

Or am I misreading this?  Is the real message the fact that Jesus survived and overcame death, and by so doing the rest of us can look forward to survival also?

But we must believe in Jesus for salvation.  And that then raises the obvious question of all people who existed before Jesus' birth or people who never heard of Jesus.  What is their fate?

And what does believing in Jesus really mean?  Is it enough to believe Jesus was the Son of God and that he died for our sins and later rose up to rejoin God?

Or is belief something more deep?  Believing in a historical fact doesn't seem to me to be enough...

R

Rondele,

Sorry for the delay. I've been involved with very sick and dying people, including the need to walk their dogs!


The New Testament teaches that Jesus died for everyone, not just for Christians.  The first question is this: is it essential to believe in Jesus to inherit eternal life through Him?  Or does one merely need to develop the quality of consciousness His teachings are designed to produce and live the grace-based life He teaches?
Consider this concession made by Paul in a public address on his first visit to Athens.  "in the past God overlooked such ignorance.  but now He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)."  Prior to Paul's arrival, most Athenians know nothing about the Hebrew Bible and had never even heard of Jesus.  Paul is saying that God does not hold them accountable for  what they don't know.  This principle, of course, applies equally to modern pagans and people of other faiths who either have never heard of Jesus or, if they have, have no more than a superficial impression of what Jesus is like and what He stands for. 

Now consider what Paul says about the potentian of non-Christian faith traditions to be the vehicle for salvation:

"God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.  There will be glory and honor and peace with God for all who do good--for the Jew first and also for the pagan [Gentile].  For God does not show favoritism (Romans 2:7, 10-11)."

These observations lead to many other questions, which I hope to address when I have time.  Right now, I have to pretend I'm a lawyer and write a letter to keep  a troubled seeker out of jail!

Don

    Source never wanted animal sacrifices.  This became involved with cultures and belief systems because of outside negative influences. 

  Re: Yeshua.  His life was not about sacrifice for our sins, but rather, he came to a sin sick world to reorient us back to a constructive, creative path so that we could become joyous and healed. 

   His life involved letting himself be falsely tried, tortured, and murdered, because he had to make his message as dramatic and memorable as possible, to have the greatest and farthest reaching impact he could. 

    Because, after his very human death, he did manifest physically to many for a time. 

  There was no teacher previous to him who fully overcame the illusion of death, especially as one who was born of a woman.  Now, we had Melchizedek who had manifested into this dimension (Earth) straight from Source Consciousness, and who did not die physically, but he was not born of a woman.  The "game" changes a bit when more fully subjected to the process of forgetting, being raised as a child, etc.   Btw, Melchizedek and Yeshua are part of the same "Disk" or "I/There" or Expanded self essence.  He has manifested a number of times here as a teacher, wayshower, and guide.  Some fully in human, and some direct manifestations from outside the ELS. 

     Think on this for a moment.  During the trial and crucifixion, and after same, many of those who followed him forsook him.  They were confused, many didn't think it would end like this despite Yeshua trying to prepare them (gave plenty of hints). 

    They scattered, lost focus, and despaired.  But after he showed up physically to them, it all changed again.  So much so, that many of these people went to their own tortures and deaths in his and his teachings name. 

    How many would give their freedom, their comfort, or their lives for a cause that they weren't totally convinced in?   What might it take, perhaps to experience first hand a Teacher who was so filled with Life, so filled with Light, with Love, that death had no power of them? 

   Without the crucifixion and resurrection, Yeshua would have just been another spiritual teacher preaching  concepts--there have been many of these in history, in many cultures.  Yeshua went beyond the Buddha and others.  He attained complete and full conscious Source Consciousness while in the flesh.  Others had gotten relatively close, but only he fully completed same. 

   There was some sacrifice involved on his part in a few ways.   One, coming into this world to begin with, especially during such a slow vibratory and negative cycle and in the area he grew up in.  Painful to such an aware and sensitive consciousness.

  Two, Yeshua like all of us, was operating from within a human.  There was a part of him, that had some trepidation about experiencing extreme physical torture, because he knew it wouldn't feel good and would be hard to bear physically.   It was not without physical pain as some sources would have us believe. 

   The human part of him, balked some at this fore knowledge, and so yes, there was sacrifice involved even though he knew that if he went through with it, he would raise the temple again in 3 days as he told the Pharisees etc before hand. 

  So, it's not that his torture and death was some kind of direct sacrifice for our sins, but rather it was an extension of his larger message and impact meant to reorient us back to Source's consciousness and livingness and away from our error filled lives, belief systems, etc. 

  All the meanwhile, encouraging others and telling them, what i am and can do, you are and can also be and do. 

  To fully understand his life and message, you have to understand the difference between life and death metaphysically and metaphorically.  Most of us know that death is kind of an illusion because we survive, and it's not the end of anything. 

  However, the real meaning of death is not that, but a discontinuity of conscious awareness.  Even for more mature individuals, when they die, there is a temporary loss of awareness and an adjustment phase.   Also, death is not a necessity to begin with. 

  We "die" here (provided it's not forced and allowed as in his case), because we live a life that is not completely LIFE in essence.  In other words, part of the reason why we die, is because of our lack of attunement to PUL and Source Consciousness.  In other cycles (many thousands of years ago), wherein the collective vibration of Earth and humanity was much higher, individuals tended to live MUCH longer in physical lives than current. 

    When there is full attunement to Source and PUL within, then there is full continuity of consciousness, no stuckness, no being limited by local dimensional 'laws' or trends, no loss in conscious awareness.   You realize the truth of Oneness and connectness, and you phase from one dimension or level to another simply by conscious will. 

  These truths will become more plain to humanity in the nearish future, when other individuals attain to similar attunement as he, as in-physical humans and demonstrate similar attunement.   Not necessarily exactly the same as he as in being killed and manifesting in physical after, but in ways similar to the various so called miracles he acted as a channel for. 
 
   He will also make public appearances again with the same body image he was born with some 2000 years ago.  A man 5' 11 1/2"-6" tall, weight around 174, fair of face, strong, athletic looking body (but not gym pumped by any means), light brown hair with strong reddish and golden highlights--fairly reddish overall with tendency to waviness and a little curl towards the ends, eyes a light and piercing blue gray or gray blue with some greenish tint at times, fullish lower lip, some almost Leonine appearance a bit.  Not much stereotypcially Hebraic looking, except for a very slightly prominent nose. 

    Course, those who know him, will know him better by his emanation than his looks.  The kind of powerful emanation that Bob Monroe talks about in relation to meeting He/She. 

  However, we can and should meet him before his public in physical appearances.  We can do so through raising up the Christ Consciousness within. 

  Well, as they say, Karma is a beeatch. 

  There is some back story here, that relates to other lives and karma, that makes Yeshua's life a little more understandable if you know the back story. 

   The Biblical person Joshua, leader and warrior-priest of the Israelite's, and Yeshua are part of the same Disk. 

  During Joshua's lifetime, as a warrior-priest, after attacking Jerusalem, he found the King or general of same hiding in a cave. 

Under Joshua's order, he had this man hung up in a tree to die.   

   Yeshua was meeting self and karma in the crucifixion.  Without fully meeting self and his karma, he would not have been fully re-Christed. 

  However, again, it also had the benefit of being an extremely dramatic and memorable account.  Man gets brutally tortured and crucified unjustly for different beliefs and preaching, experiences pretty sure physical death.  Yet, same man's body disappears from the cave 3 days later, and ends up showing up to friends and others and at times physically interacting with them....

  People were use to E.T. stuff previous to this.  Ships and lights coming out the sky.  ET technology had been shown in some pretty dramatic ways previously.  Look at Elijah's contest with the Priests of Baal.  Elijah was in communication with friendly E.T.'s and on his request, they shot a type of laser fire down in a dramatic show.

  No, people needed the purely human element of dramatics here.  No show in the sky or the like.  As mentioned, that had been done before.

  Yes, walking on water is dramatic too, but not much of a sacrifice for ones belief or others.  The Christ like life, is at it's essence, about the sacrifice of the selfish, little, willful self, to the will of Source/Creative Forces attuned with same and the good of Whole or larger self.

   In a sense, it's no different that being with another person--say a little kid, you have food, but you both are hungry and starving, and you give  your last bit of food to the child.  Why?   Why do something like that?  Because you feel their pain, their suffering, and in that moment their suffering for whatever reason matters more than your own?

  Well, from the Christ perspective, it's always about others.  It's a shift, an emphasis away from the little, seemingly separated self that we have become so accustomed to operating from.  In doing that, do you find or gain your real self, the little, individual self fully connected to the Whole. 

Thank you for this thread Don. It has answered many questions I've had recently. Interestingly my spiritual practice and research into what is really happening in this world has led me to strongly consider Christianity.

Berserk2 wrote on May 27^th, 2013 at 3:27pm:


I like this view, but I'm wondering what you make of verses such as the following:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:16–18).

“If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved” (Rom. 10:9–10)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

Because of "A Channel's" ex-member status I am not able to edit my last post, so I will instead add to my last post.

I recommend the following when considering the three versus Dude asked about.

Tune into the depth of your soul to an extent where you love all people dearly. Consider the possibility that when you tune into that level of being, you tune into a level of being that is close to God. Then ask yourself whether the versus Dude asked about accurately represent how God considers things when determining who does or doesn't get to go to heaven. Perhaps Jesus' prodigal son story relates.

Don:

It doesn't seem as if you answered Dude's question about those three versus he referred to. Well, to some extent you did with some of the things you wrote on this thread before he asked that question. You provided some good related verse references.

Perhaps you can tell Dude that God's beingness, wisdom and love are all one. Therefore, if we open up to God's love as much as we can and accept the wisdom we find there, we'll find out much more than we could ever find by reading any book. We'll know how to consider the versus that Dude asked about. Heart-based wisdom is the best wisdom of all. God has graced us with the ability to listen to our hearts, which connect us to him. Our intellects on the other hand can be quite fallible.

Jesus' atoning death is rich in symbolism at several levels. For example, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) in ancient Israel one goat was offered up as a sacrifice and the other goat was released into the wilderness.  This practice is grounded in Leviticus 16.  For a general description of this ritual read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat

During Jesus' trial, Pilate looks for a way to release Jesus.  Before the crowd clambering for Jesus' crucifixion, he points to the Passover custom of releasing a prisoner and gives them a choice between Jesus and the thief, Barabbas.  The crowd prefers Barabbas probably because he is a political revolutionary.  Barabbas and Jesus are both symbols of the 2 goats because in Hebrew "Barabbas" means "son of the father" and Jesus is the Son of God, the Father.   

In my next planned post, I will discuss Jesus' sacrifice in its most important sense as representative atonement. 

There is a neglected mystical dimension that is ideally achieved through baptism.  So I will digress and describe my own baptism at the tender age of 11.  I was the only child among about 12 baptismal candidates.  We first had to attend a class on the theology of baptism that was geared for adults and involved unexplained abstract theological jargon.  The lecturer used terms like justification, sanctification, and propitiation which created excruciation to my young mind that had hoped this would be a meaningful rite of passage.  We were told that we needed to become "circumcised in spirit," which was fine, except I didn't even know what physical circumcision was!

The baptisms were to be performed in a large tank behind the platform in a Sunday night service before a huge crowd of 1,500 people.  We were expected to share our personal faith testimonies before our immersion, but I had no idea what I should say and was too petrified to comply.  Everyone except me shared their testimonies.  When my turn came, I nervously waded out in about 4 1/2 feet of water, and when the pastor asked me if I had "a testimony for the Lord Jesus," I shook my head with great shame.  So the pastor compensated for this failure by posing a series of catechetical questions.  At that point, I just felt eager to get my ordeal over with. 

The pastor dunked me, but his act of raising me up from the water led directly to one of the most sacred of experiences of my life.  I suddenly saw a vision of Jesus in the corner of the tank, smiling lovingly at me.  Jesus' expression seemed to display a sense humor and empathy at my embarrassed plight.  Seldom had I ever felt so loved.  In retrospect, I think Jesus foreknew that He would call me to the ministry and wanted this rite of passage to be a truly sacred and memorable experience for me.  Jesus empowered my baptism to become a vehicle through which I got an inkling of what Paul meant when he taught that baptism is intended to "clothe us with Christ." 










soo

Hey Don, great posts.

I have some reservations regarding communion. The ideas presented in this article make sense to me. Perhaps you could give it a read some time and comment on it. http://drmsh.com/the-lord-supper-supernatural-constipation-lords-supper-part-2/

Vince,  I'd advise you to pray about getting baptized.  Remember, that in the early church it was closely associated with the bestowal of the Holy Spirit--not that this bestowal is automatic, but ccntemplative expectation will make your rebaptism more meaningful. 

I'm glad you liked your friends' church.  I'd recommend some church hopping before you settle finally on one church.  Check out at least one Pentecostal or charismatic church and just assume that you have the gift of discernment to assess whatever spiritual gifts are demonstrated.  The Holy Spirit will reveal to you which church best suits you.  It's not just a question of which church you enjoy the most.  You have undeveloped spiritual gifts that are most likely to be revealed to you in a church setting, at least one of which, I believe will build on the skills you developed in your OBE Dude period. 

When I have time, I'll address your additional question about Holy Communion.  btw, one of the most famous Christian evangelical leaders in the USA just created a scandal for his radio listeners because he joined a Greek Orthodox church.  One of the main reasons for the switch, he says, is their belief in the "real presence" of Christ during Communion.  As he points out, the church has almost always believed in this throughout church history, until the Reformation.  It's an important issue to get straight because your perspective will affect what the Spirit can do in your heart when you participate in Communion. 

P.S. It's only fair to warn you that I am a deadly spiker!

Lutheran, Methodist and Anglican also believe in the "real presence" of Christ during communion as well.  I don't know if there are others.

Volleyball was my game as well.  Nice spike! 

What?  Don is banned?

I don't know if Don was banned.

Dude, boy do you see what you want to see, and so will others that choose to ignore Bruce's stated wish that Don start his own forum to do what he does here.

I have mixed feelings about this. It isn't an all or nothing matter. Since Bruce did state that he wished Don would start his own forum rather than post here, it might be reasonable to conclude that Bruce didn't start this forum so someone could use it to discredit Robert Monroe (and Bruce, mainly by discrediting Robert) and then create numerous posts that serve the purpose to get people to think of Don's version of Christianity instead.

If Don was banned, I for one support such a move. Perhaps this forum could be used for its original purpose. Perhaps more people who are interested in exploring the afterlife will find the forum interesting. I doubt that people come here to learn about the Bible, and about how making contact with spirit world should be avoided. Don, Dude and Roger have all written posts stating that it should be avoided.

Dude, if you believe this is pathetic, perhaps you should find a forum that was created for the purpose of promoting Christianity.

Don't act so self-righteous when you aren't willing to acknowledge the other perspective on this matter.

Come on guys, don't play dumb, some of you know that you are using this forum to turn people off to some of the things Bruce wrote about, and to instead become Christians. You can deny this all you like, actions speak louder than words.

1796 wrote on Jun 13^th, 2017 at 8:47am:

Dude:

I'll let you have the last word.