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How has it changed you? (Read 14453 times)
Mogenblue
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #15 - Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:56pm
 
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:39pm:
Mogenblue wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:34pm:
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:15pm:
Is this a serious comment, or am I missing something?


What would you be missing then?


Do you really mean what you said, or were you being facetious (sorry, I'm not too familiar yet with your views).


If there is no afterlife, no karma and no hell or whatever then there is also no need to behave good and correct. I think I would be dead and gone by now too in that case. But so what? Dead would be dead.
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Marlei1501
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #16 - Feb 12th, 2013 at 9:25pm
 
Mogenblue wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:56pm:
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:39pm:
Mogenblue wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:34pm:
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 8:15pm:
Is this a serious comment, or am I missing something?


What would you be missing then?


Do you really mean what you said, or were you being facetious (sorry, I'm not too familiar yet with your views).


If there is no afterlife, no karma and no hell or whatever then there is also no need to behave good and correct. I think I would be dead and gone by now too in that case. But so what? Dead would be dead.


Thanks for clarifying that you were being serious, but I agree with Rondele and totally disagree with you.

My natural inclination is towards atheism (although I really want to be convinced otherwise - hence why I'm on this website). I believe in treating others as I would want to be treated, regardless of whether or not there's an afterlife. It saddens me when people think that the spiritual and religious have a monopoly on feeling empathy for others.
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Marlei1501
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #17 - Feb 12th, 2013 at 9:58pm
 
Isee,

I hope to be able to come back here soon and answer your question by telling you I've found great joy and inner peace. I don't think it will make a great deal of difference to how I behave towards others. In the meantime, I'll continue to study this website and read the forum posts in the hope banishing my scepticism.
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isee
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #18 - Feb 12th, 2013 at 11:00pm
 
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 9:58pm:
Isee,

I hope to be able to come back here soon and answer your question by telling you I've found great joy and inner peace. I don't think it will make a great deal of difference to how I behave towards others. In the meantime, I'll continue to study this website and read the forum posts in the hope banishing my scepticism.

 
Welcome, Marlei. We all have to begin somewhere, don't we? Perhaps it is good that you know who you are now, and that anything you discover is simply a plus.

When I was a young woman I was certain that "death" was the end, but I had not really given much thought to what "death" actually is. And I had so much life left to live. When the chips were down, though, it has always been some nameless "something" greater to which I turned, to which my heart yearned for help, for understanding. Perhaps we are all like this.

And another question I must ask myself: if I knew then what I know now, about how my life would proceed, would I do it all again? What would I do differently, if I could? Of course, books could be written, that way...
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Mogenblue
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #19 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 2:55am
 
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 9:25pm:
Thanks for clarifying that you were being serious, but I agree with Rondele and totally disagree with you.

My natural inclination is towards atheism (although I really want to be convinced otherwise - hence why I'm on this website). I believe in treating others as I would want to be treated, regardless of whether or not there's an afterlife. It saddens me when people think that the spiritual and religious have a monopoly on feeling empathy for others.


Unknown makes unwanted.

I have come to understand that it takes many thousands of incarnations to build on your physical and spiritual organism. Consciousness and having a conscious don't spring up just like that. You need literally thousands of incarnations to develop that.
So there is an afterlife and I also learned that spirits of light come to Earth to inspire people to change their lives for the better.
I have learned all this from the book The Origin of the Universe. It gave me a very deep and sensible understanding of why we are here, what we are doing here and how we have to live to prepare us for the next stage. We are only passing through on this planet.

So from that understanding I say that without the help of spirits of light and without so many incarnations my consciousness and conscious would be far inferior to what it is today. And with such a primitive state of mind it would seem natural and the only known way to act to me as I described earlier.
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isee
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #20 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 8:24am
 
Mogenblue wrote on Feb 13th, 2013 at 2:55am:
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 9:25pm:
Thanks for clarifying that you were being serious, but I agree with Rondele and totally disagree with you.

My natural inclination is towards atheism (although I really want to be convinced otherwise - hence why I'm on this website). I believe in treating others as I would want to be treated, regardless of whether or not there's an afterlife. It saddens me when people think that the spiritual and religious have a monopoly on feeling empathy for others.


Unknown makes unwanted.

I have come to understand that it takes many thousands of incarnations to build on your physical and spiritual organism. Consciousness and having a conscious don't spring up just like that. You need literally thousands of incarnations to develop that.
So there is an afterlife and I also learned that spirits of light come to Earth to inspire people to change their lives for the better.
I have learned all this from the book The Origin of the Universe. It gave me a very deep and sensible understanding of why we are here, what we are doing here and how we have to live to prepare us for the next stage. We are only passing through on this planet.

So from that understanding I say that without the help of spirits of light and without so many incarnations my consciousness and conscious would be far inferior to what it is today. And with such a primitive state of mind it would seem natural and the only known way to act to me as I described earlier.


Mogenblue believes that it takes many incarnations in order to perfect the spirit, to develop one's consciousness.  Is there a way in which that is true?

Is there a way that consciousness can be "perfected" in only a moment of realization, as some others have taught?

Is consciousness already perfect, as it is?

Is the whole of all life one vast shifting sand dune of love and information on which we rest for this one instance we consider to be "in" a life? If so, is the afterlife our ocean of love and information in which we float when we leave our bodies?

*In other words, Life's a Beach...and then you die.... Smiley
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #21 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 2:42pm
 
It has made a huge difference for me. I was pretty much a nice guy before I knew that the afterlife exists, but now that I do, I strive even harder to grow spiritually because I know it makes a difference after we die. Funny thing is, it also helps while alive.

Because I know that the afterlife exists and a wonderful and infinite future awaits me, I’m more easily able to deal with life’s challenges, because I have a broad perspective with which to view these difficulties. It also helps that I am able to experience divine love and peace often.  This provides me with a break from the challenges life in this World includes.

There is also the matter of spirit work I do that I couldn’t do if I wasn’t in contact with the spirit World. It really means a lot to me to be able help out as I do.

It’s also good to not be afraid of death.


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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #22 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 2:43pm
 
I believe I would still be a good person because I was a good person when I didn't believe in the afterlife.

rondele wrote on Feb 12th, 2013 at 10:52am:
isee-

For a long time I've had a related question, and often considered posting it but never did. 

My question is, what if we knew for an absolute fact that there was no afterlife.  How would that affect the way we live the rest of our life?

Would our life still have a sense of purpose?  Would we still want to reach out and help others? Or would we become more selfish, thinking more about ourselves?

To me, answers to this question would shed a lot of light on who we really are.....assuming we answer it truthfully and from the heart.

R




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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #23 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 5:21pm
 
(1) Is it respectable to believe in an afterlife without believing in God? 

To me the obvious answer is No.  But of course, one can believe in an afterlife wtihout believing in the Christian God.  In my view, evolution is not a rational theory without postulating some sort of Intelligent Designer guiding the process and making it possible.

(a) Microbiologist, Michael Behe, has written a convincing book, "Darwin's Black Box," arguing that Darwin know nothing about cellular systems.  He argues that the living cell contains 6 irreducibly comples systems that cannot be explained as the product of slow incremental evolution towards greater complexity.  I have read many scientific attempts to refute Behe and, in my view, none of them has merit.   

(b) Some of Nature's symbiotic relationships don't seem explicable in terms of natural selection, genetic mutation, and blind chance.  For example, when I toured Costa Rica's jungles, we encountered the symbiotic relationship between aggressive Azteca ants and a wren.  Only this wren is allowed by these ants to nest on their plants.  The lawyers for the wrens and the ants worked out a legal arrangement in which the wrens agreed to eat a beetle whose hard shell the ants can't penetrate in exchange for protection of the wren and her eggs.  Of course, I am being facetious; I don't believe such arrangements are easily explained by blind chance. 

Even more absurd is the assumption that a postmortem realm of brilliantly designed spirit planes could evolve wtihout regard to Intelligent Design by blind chance.  This aburdity is increased if it is also assumed that one's condition and predicament in the afterlife is affected by one's progress towards PUL.  To me, that implies that God (or, if you like, the First Cause, Ultimate Reality) manifests through PUL, wants to give and receive PUL, and created All  That Is to facilitate countless creative ways of developing and expressing PUL. 

(2) What difference does belief in an afterlife make to moral worth and character? 

Here one must dinstinguish the differences such a belief actually makes from the differences such a belief should make on the basis of rational inferences.
The classic ethical question is this: What makes right beactions right?  With no God or afterlife, morality can be dismissed as an arbitrary system of values that have evolved to create tribal coherence and a well-ordered society.  If you ask, "Why shouldn't I harm you, if it suits my purpose and I can get away with it?," there is mo morally justifiable reply.  If you threaten me with punishment if I get caught, that is a pragmatic, not a moral, consideration.  If you ask me, "Suppose everyone acted like you and acted selfishly and sadistically?"  I might reply, "I wouldn't like that, but in fact, most people do act morally; so why should I follow suit if selfish behavior gets me what I want?"   

Nor do I believe that one is just as likely to be kind and loving with no belief in a loving God or an afterife.  True, many atheists behavie ethically, and many Christians and other religious devotees act like scoundrels.  But in my observation,  believers in a loving God are on average far more likely to serve the poor and needy in a loving way.  Just look at the sort of people who are and are not willing to serve in soup kitchens or help the homeless for no financial gain.  In my experience, these are almost always people of faith. 

Don
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #24 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 9:19pm
 
Related to what Don (Berserk) just said, the below is from my book "Joining the Oneness - Beyond Nonduality." It is hard for me to believe that there isn't a guiding intelligence behind the creation of the universe we experience.

"If one considers the matter from a scientific vantage point, one will see that the universe was created in a very detailed manner rather than a haphazardly. Below are ten examples:

1. The planet Earth is the perfect size. Its gravity makes possible an atmosphere that has mostly nitrogen and hydrogen gases. If Earth was smaller such an atmosphere would be impossible. If Earth was larger it would contain free hydrogen. Earth has the right mixture of gasses to sustain its biological life forms.

2. Earth is the right distance from the sun. If Earth was closer to the sun it would burn up, if it was further away it would freeze. Neither condition would support biological life as we know it.

3. Earth’s moon is the perfect size and is located the perfect distance from Earth. The relationship between Earth’s gravity, the size of its moon and the distance between itself and its moon is just what is needed in order for ocean tides to be active enough so stagnation doesn’t result, and so continental shores aren’t overrun by tidal activity.

4. Earth rotates at just the right speed. If Earth rotated too quickly there would be too many hurricanes and tornadoes. If it rotated too slowly it would be too cold during the evening and too hot during the day for life as we know it to survive.

5. Atomic Electromagnetism is just right. When a subatomic particle such as an electron orbits an atom’s nucleus the amount of electromagnetism has to be just right. If it is too weak the electron won’t orbit the nucleus. If it is too strong the nuclei will hold onto the electron too tightly for it to be shared with adjoining nuclei. As a result molecules wouldn’t be formed.

6. Atoms have a nuclear force that is just right. Protons and neutrons are held by the nucleus of an atom by a strong nuclear force. If this force was too strong protons would cling to other protons and neutrons would cling to other neutrons. As a result hydrogen wouldn’t exist, and life sustaining molecules such as water wouldn’t exist. If the nuclear force was slightly weaker no protons and neutrons would stick together and only hydrogen would exist. As a result many things including biological life forms couldn’t be created. If nuclear force was 3/10th of 1% stronger or 2% weaker, life as we know it wouldn’t exist.

7. Protons and Neutrons have just the right mass. A neutron is 0.138% more massive than a proton. As a result, it takes more energy to make neutrons than protons. If neutrons were 1/10th of 1% less massive, so many neutrons would come into existence that they would collapse into neutron stars and black holes, and biological life forms couldn’t exist. If neutrons were 1/10th of 1% more massive, so few neutrons would be made that there wouldn’t be enough of them to make atoms such carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium, and these atoms are essential in order for biological life forms to be created.

8. Gravity dominates the physical universe even though it is extremely weaker than the other three forces of physics. If biological life forms are going to exist in this universe, then gravity must be 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times weaker than electromagnetism. Gravity must also be significantly weaker than the other forces of physics (strong interaction and weak interaction). Even though this is so, the universe has been set up so that gravity is dominant, otherwise planets, stars and galaxies couldn’t be created. The fact of how such stringent requirements have been met suggests that a guiding intelligence was needed when the ingredients of the universe were assembled.

9. The physical universe was constructed so it is electrically neutral. In order for the physical universe to operate in a functional way it must be electrically neutral. In order for this to be so, electrons must outnumber protons for the better of one part of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. It is hard to imagine that such a need has been met purely by chance.

10. The mass of the universe is just right. If the physical universe was too massive, all atoms would be converted from hydrogen to elements heavier than iron. This being the case, elements such as oxygen, carbon and nitrogen wouldn’t exist and biological life forms couldn’t be created. If the universe’s mass was too small, fusion would work so inefficiently that only hydrogen and helium would be produced.       
I figure there are more than ten scientific reasons for why it could reasonably be argued that a guiding intelligence took part in the creation of the physical universe and beyond, but I also figure that for the sake of this book, 10 reasons are enough. Some people might claim that the planet Earth and its relationship to its moon and the sun are just right simply because out of the many star systems that exist, some of them are bound to exist in a manner where life can be supported. Without getting into whether or not human scientists have accurately determined how many star systems have planets that support life, it sure seems to me that the fact of how the right combination of factors do exist supports the possibility that a guiding intelligence was involved. Plus, it isn’t just a matter of what goes on for this world, it is also a matter of what goes on with other parts of the physical universe (e.g.; as described with items 5-10 of the above list). Plus, if you consider what people have found while making contact with extraterrestrials through nonphysical means, there are a lot more planets with life forms in this galaxy (and beyond) than the pure chance method would allow for.

Another factor to consider is the incredibly complex manner in which biological life forms exist. I don’t believe Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection through preferable genetic mutations provides a complete and accurate explanation of how life forms were created. They exist in a manner that is so complex that there must’ve been a guiding intelligence that played a key role in their creation.

This being the case, this planet must’ve been created on purpose, because if it and the surrounding physical universe were created by accident, the divine powers-that-be would not have chosen to exacerbate the mistake by creating life forms that are conscious of such an accident. If no life form was aware of the physical universe, it wouldn’t present a problem, just as a tree that falls in a forest doesn’t create any ear damage when nobody is there to hear it fall.

Consider the human body. Our skeletal, muscular, neural, endocrine, digestive, excretory, respiratory, circulatory, urinary, reproductive, immune and integumentary systems have been designed so every part of each system is located precisely where it needs to be located in order for a highly functional body to exist. This sophistication isn’t limited to human beings. The squirrels in my neighborhood come to mind. I marvel at how athletic they are. They can leap from branch to branch with great precision. They can run across power lines. They can play with each other and make all kinds of acrobatic moves while on a completely vertical telephone pole.

Chances are that squirrels have abilities I don’t know about; abilities that are comparable to the web spinning ability of spiders, the dam building ability of beavers, the nest building ability of birds, the hive building ability of bees, and the colony building ability of ants. These abilities exist without a species having to attend an applicable trade school. Also consider animals that know how to migrate without having to go through some sort of land navigation curriculum. Some people will say it’s instinct, and leave it at that, but how does this instinct come to be?

Some people believe that Stanley Miller and Harold C. Urey came up with an explanation for how life was created on Earth when they conducted an experiment in 1953. Miller placed molecules within a closed system that were believed to be the kind of molecules that existed during Earth’s early atmosphere (methane, ammonia, hydrogen and water). He exposed them to a continuous electric current. This current was supposed to simulate lightening storms. Upon examining the results of the experiment Miller found that as much as 10-15% of the carbon was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent formed some of the amino acids that proteins are built with (proteins are a key part of biological life).

It is significant to add that after being accepted by many biologists for a number of years, Stanley Miller’s theory lost favor. It did so for a number of reasons:

1.  The wrong kind of atmosphere. Miller’s experiment lacked oxygen and nitrogen which are parts of our current environment. If oxygen was included in the experiment it would’ve destroyed any organic material in the experiment and would’ve had the same effect on the early period of Earth. Geological and palaeontological research has found that an oxygen-based atmosphere existed during the time period for which Miller hypothesized life was created. Ammonia would’ve decomposed into nitrogen and hydrogen within 30,000 years. Methane wouldn’t last more than 1% of the time required if life is going to be created. Also, during the relevant time period hydrogen would’ve escaped into space.

2. Earth’s conditions from the time period didn’t match the conditions of Miller’s experiment. Early Earth didn’t exist with ingredients similar to how they were compiled in Miller’s experiment. Also, lightening during the relevant time period would not have been strong enough to match the amount of energy Miller applied during his experiment.

3. Not enough amino acids were formed during Miller’s experiment to provide an explanation as to how a sufficient number would be created in a primitive Earth environment. In order to produce amino acids, Miller had to continuously circulate the reaction mixture and isolated products as they were formed. Such a natural process didn’t exist during the time period Miller hypothesized life was formed.

4. Amino acids weren’t formed in the correct manner during Miller’s experiment. There are left-handed (levo) and right handed (dextro) amino acids. Miller’s experiment created both. Biological life forms require only the left handed form. In fact, proteins can contain only a trace of the right handed form, otherwise negative results not conducive to the creation of life are obtained.

5. Protein building is a complicated process. If you have a cell containing just 124 proteins, the chances of these forming without direction is 1 in 10100,000,000 . This being the case, it is hard to see how the random conditions Miller spoke of could’ve lead to the creation of life forms that are incredibly more complicated than a cell with just 124 proteins.

I find it hard to believe that random groupings of amino acids, no matter how numerous, eventually, with the assistance of mutation based evolution, led to the creation of the numerous sophisticated life forms that can be found on this planet. 

If you consider the complex activity of just one cell, you are likely to conclude that it is hard to believe that such sophistication could be the result of a random evolutionary process. The interactive feedback systems within a cell are far too complex. This intracellular sophistication doesn’t exist in isolation. Each cell of a biological life form is able to interact with other parts of the body in very particular and intricate ways.

Consider an athlete who tries to improve his (or her) oxygen uptake. One manner in which his body responds to exercise is by increasing the number of capillary beds that innervate the muscle fibers he exercises. When the oxygen level within one of his muscle fibers becomes low, a gene regulatory protein called hypoxia-inducible factor 1 (HIF-1) becomes activated. HIF-1 causes vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) to be released from the utilized muscle cells. Endothelial cells, the cells that make up capillary beds, are stimulated to release molecules referred to as proteases, and these proteases digest their way through the basal lamina of a capillary or venule that is located close to the muscle fiber that has increased HIF-1 levels. Endothelial cells are then attracted to where VEGF is located and reproduce in order to create a capillary extension. It is hard to imagine that such sophisticated interaction is the result of a random evolutionary process. This example is just one of many examples that can be provided. Plus, I haven’t provided all of the details of the above process.

If a morphological, physiological and/or biochemical attribute of a species is so important it couldn’t survive without it, it is hard to see how it would survive long enough for the necessary mutation to take place. Magnify this factor by how each species requires numerous traits in order to survive.

I don’t mean that genetic mutation never plays a role in how a species evolves, but not to an extent where the process of evolution could be as successful as it has been. I believe it is significant to factor in that only 0.1% of the mutations that take place are considered beneficial. This being the case, how could favorable mutations occur often enough? If anything, unfavorable mutations would have the tendency to negate the positive effects of favorable mutations."
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #25 - Feb 13th, 2013 at 9:31pm
 
I've logged in briefly to thank those who have replied to my first posts and to add a few more comments to those I've already made.

I accept it's possible that my moral stance may be shaped by previous incarnations. However, I also think it's possible that this is my only incarnation (although I hope not!).

It's a well-known fact that there's a much higher percentage of atheists and agnostics in the UK (for example) than there is in the US. Yet there's no evidence to suggest that altruism is any less prevalant in the UK.

One more thing. Aren't good deeds more meaningful when no reward for oneself is expected from them?

It's getting late here now, so I'll be back another day to read your posts in more detail.
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #26 - Feb 14th, 2013 at 3:49am
 
Marlei1501 wrote on Feb 13th, 2013 at 9:31pm:
One more thing. Aren't good deeds more meaningful when no reward for oneself is expected from them?


I think you need to have a conscious to appreciate that.

Some prisons are packed with people who have little or no conscious at all. Why is that some people do have a conscious and others not?
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isee
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #27 - Feb 14th, 2013 at 8:24am
 
I think in this case you mean "conscience"?

I suppose that we are each still learning in one way or another. I have recently read that scientists have identified an area of the brain devoted to the ability to feel empathy for others, and to regret one's actions. It appears that in some people it is not fully developed, which would explain some of our differences.

In that case, it would be a physical condition which a person may possess which affects their life and those around them tremendously.

In addition, I think we must be taught to care for others, and with all societies doing what they must to survive, can there ever be a perfect lesson plan in that regard?

Fascinating replies, thanks to all here.

Happy Valentine's Day to each of you. Please, carry on....
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #28 - Feb 14th, 2013 at 8:30am
 
I said before that English is not my mother language.

I do struggle with the difference between conscious, consciousness and, as you say, conscience.

You are right, Isee. I mean conscience.

In Dutch the words are
conscious - bewustzijn
consciousness - bewustzijn
conscience - geweten

So we don't differentiate between conscious and consciousness in Dutch. But we have very different words for conscious and conscience.
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isee
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Re: How has it changed you?
Reply #29 - Feb 14th, 2013 at 8:54am
 
And I do admire anyone who can bridge the gap between languages. It is such a necessary skill in our world. This is another example of an ability that varies from person to person, depending on nature and nurture.

I used to know a little French, which was a delight, but my ex-spouse, who was a French native, did not want to speak it with me and it faded away over the years we were together.  But, his great love was and will always be the English language, so I guess I can understand his reluctance. Oh well, life goes on! Perhaps one must do for oneself what one cannot do with others.
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