Conversation Board - Re: Swedenborg flaws

isee

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #15 - Jan 23^rd, 2013 at 6:46pm

PauliEffectt wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2013 at 6:41pm:

It's very, very serious matter. Will is the one at the end. It's under
Swedenborg's HH 367:

"Marriage in heaven is a conjunction of two into one mind. (. . .)
So in heaven a married pair is spoken of, not as two, but as one angel."

When you marry in Heaven, you become a little angel.

Will.

But, how will I Know I'm Will...someone, anyone could be deceiving me into thinking I'm Will...I'm afraid, so very afraid!

This is all so confusing and terribly flawed...

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O

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #16 - Jan 24^th, 2013 at 11:23am

Quote:

In his book "Heaven and Hell" Swedenborg wrote than when a man spirit and woman spirit get married, they merge to an extent where the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will. I find this hard to believe.

I think this is taken too literal. It comes close enough to what I would think possible to consider it as a half-translated energetic/symbolic concept.

It is possible for two persons to merge minds, to step into a close energetic union. Author Kurt Leland (who also discussed Swedenborg in his book "The Unanswered Question") calls the associated phenomena "mind merge" and "permeation."

A mind merge is the temporary direct contact of two minds as experienced in nonphysical reality. On the highermost planes this becomes the mode of communication.

Permeation is the more permanent process, a concept that could be called a "spiritual marriage" as most of the people that experience it experience it in the context of a romantic relationship. If both partners can allow the needed intimacy they experience a merge at the energetic - causal or soul - levels. They retain separate identities but also share intensively on the energetic levels.

In a sense, a couple achieving permeation goes in and out of a mind merge. Achieving permeation can help along experiencing mind merges in nonphysical reality.

From the viewpoint of a clairvoyant observer - such as Swedenborg was - this could look like two separate entities becoming one, and from a certain perspective this is the case. The term "angel" could then be synonymous for other terms like "soul body" or "causal body."

The second part of the quotation probably has more to do with preconceptions. Both the failure to fully translate and the intrusion of preconceptions could be attributed to Swedenborg's belief system - what he believed to be possible and how he personally related to reality.

I think the original observation was probably from a valid experience. Clairvoyance and nonphysical experiences are subject to translation through our belief systems, affected by our emotional state, and even our physical health (think for example "fever dreams") can play a role.

What we think we see is not seen, but translated by our mind into pictures. This is most true in the nonphysical realities. I still think that Swedenborg made many interesting and valid observations, but I would not take his word as "gold standard" without interpreting it.

For me, this idea is not a dry academic concept. I'm experiencing the onset of this permeation process with another person, currently not in the context of a romantic relationship. It's a highly interesting experience, something I would not trade for anything else. It is very fulfilling. On a clairvoyant "vision" this looked to me like our energy bodies danced as if they were two interwoven spirals - only touching in selected places, but already sharing the same "space."

Somebody else might see something else, or interpret it differently. This is only my take on it.

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recoverer

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #17 - Jan 24^th, 2013 at 1:42pm

I haven't read "Heaven and Hell" recently, I checked it out from a local library. Going by what I can remember Swedenborg clearly said that when a female spirit marries a male spirit she loses the ability to think because the male takes over that responsibility.

I have couple of Kurt Leland books, he says some interesting things, but much of it it quite different from what other people including myself have found out. Some of his conclusions just don't make sense.

O wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Quote:

In his book "Heaven and Hell" Swedenborg wrote than when a man spirit and woman spirit get married, they merge to an extent where the man half becomes completely responsible for thinking, while the woman half becomes responsible for will. I find this hard to believe.

I think this is taken too literal. It comes close enough to what I would think possible to consider it as a half-translated energetic/symbolic concept.

It is possible for two persons to merge minds, to step into a close energetic union. Author Kurt Leland (who also discussed Swedenborg in his book "The Unanswered Question") calls the associated phenomena "mind merge" and "permeation."

A mind merge is the temporary direct contact of two minds as experienced in nonphysical reality. On the highermost planes this becomes the mode of communication.

Permeation is the more permanent process, a concept that could be called a "spiritual marriage" as most of the people that experience it experience it in the context of a romantic relationship. If both partners can allow the needed intimacy they experience a merge at the energetic - causal or soul - levels. They retain separate identities but also share intensively on the energetic levels.

In a sense, a couple achieving permeation goes in and out of a mind merge. Achieving permeation can help along experiencing mind merges in nonphysical reality.

From the viewpoint of a clairvoyant observer - such as Swedenborg was - this could look like two separate entities becoming one, and from a certain perspective this is the case. The term "angel" could then be synonymous for other terms like "soul body" or "causal body."

The second part of the quotation probably has more to do with preconceptions. Both the failure to fully translate and the intrusion of preconceptions could be attributed to Swedenborg's belief system - what he believed to be possible and how he personally related to reality.

I think the original observation was probably from a valid experience. Clairvoyance and nonphysical experiences are subject to translation through our belief systems, affected by our emotional state, and even our physical health (think for example "fever dreams") can play a role.

What we think we see is not seen, but translated by our mind into pictures. This is most true in the nonphysical realities. I still think that Swedenborg made many interesting and valid observations, but I would not take his word as "gold standard" without interpreting it.

For me, this idea is not a dry academic concept. I'm experiencing the onset of this permeation process with another person, currently not in the context of a romantic relationship. It's a highly interesting experience, something I would not trade for anything else. It is very fulfilling. On a clairvoyant "vision" this looked to me like our energy bodies danced as if they were two interwoven spirals - only touching in selected places, but already sharing the same "space."

Somebody else might see something else, or interpret it differently. This is only my take on it.

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O Junior Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 51 Gender:	Re: Swedenborg flaws Reply #18 - Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:37pm I have yet to experience something that would contradict Kurt. What would those conclusions be?
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recoverer

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #19 - Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:53pm

I haven't read Leland's books recently, hopefully my memory is accurate.

One thing he wrote is that spirits don't have a way to release anger. So if a person dies with anger, that person's spirit has to go into a living person's body in order to release that anger. He wrote that this is why some people have Turrets Syndrome. ??

He wrote this is what happens with possessed people. They get possessed so a spirit can have an anger moment. I believe there is a lot more to it than that.

He wrote that such spirits use the body of a person who is in a Coma.?????

He wrote that the spirits of people who just died get stuck in their body and have to be pushed out. ????

There were a few other things, this is all I can remember now.

It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg. If I remember correctly he compared what Swedenborg said to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg since what he states is quite different than what Swedenborg states.

O wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

I have yet to experience something that would contradict Kurt.

What would those conclusions be?

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PauliEffectt

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #20 - Jan 25^th, 2013 at 6:50am

Not only are there problems with Swedenborg's Last Judgement and
his Second Coming of Jesus.

We also have the lack of clear retrievals in Swedenborg's writings. There
could be a simple reason for that. Swedenborg was very stuck in his
own Christian beliefs.

I think it is unlikely that Swedenborg managed to make much astral travels
to other places than Focus 25. A person who only can go to F 25, can have
severe problems in helping people reach F 27.

I think that's the reason why there are so few clear accounts of Swedenborg
on retrievals. Maybe he did help some people be retrieved as it probably
is enough with talking to some stuck people to enable Helpers to step
in and retrieve the stuck person to Focus 27.

But it's very doubtful that Swedenborg ever was farther than the Hollow Heavens
and Hells in F 25, where he saw people be thrown.

Swedenborg may not be the ideal person to do retrievals.

Berserk wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 12:48am:

RETRIEVALS:

One of the things that has bothered me about ES is his failure to mention the possibility of performing retrievals. His astral insight that new discarnates in the World of Spirits gradually ascend to a heaven or descend to a hell may already imply the use of retrievals.

But now I've found a passage in Benz that seem to imply that ES even retrieved some evil discarnates in Hell:

"The devils he converts change before his eyes, lose their bestial form, and regain their human faces (Benz, p. 327).

Berserk, I'm not so sure that's a clear-cut retrieval.

It could be Swedenborg's own overlay on a person, which caused that
person to look like a monster. When Swedenborg sent that person PUL,
the appearance of that person changed.

Berserk wrote on Sep 8^th, 2005 at 6:03pm:

Also, few realize that the New Testament teaches the possibility of postmortem soul retrievals (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:29; 1 Peter 3:19-20; 4:6).

Berserk, maybe there are some advice for retrievals, but I really doubt it as
those quotes are from the Bible, which means that they are the results of
more religious stupidity.

Also, those passages from the Bible are very sketch, like the cartoonish Noah's Ark
and the 8 people and two creatures of all animals who enter the Ark. Even
Hollywood today has problems with making movies on the theme
of Noah's Ark for other than kids.

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2012 at 2:16am:

On this site, there is a retrieval section. In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine. I regret this because, if I'm allowed, soul retrievals would be my ministry of choice in the afterlife, and the New Testament and early church teach that retrievals are possible.

I don't think retrievals' purpose is to give ego trips or make anyone a minister
over others. That's religion.

Preaching something which could be a new build of yet another Belief System
is not purposeful. Maybe you instead could become a teacher, who shows
people open doors where they could make their own discoveries?

A minister can only preach what's already chopped into stone, and most of it
is religious stupidity. Bible-talk.

I agree that the lack of verifications is a little disturbing, but at the same
time, maybe there is some reason for us not getting verifications that
often? If we get to know a lot of deceased people, couldn't we later on
be affecting live people's lives in a way which we have no right to do?

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O

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #21 - Jan 25^th, 2013 at 8:04am

recoverer wrote on Jan 24^th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

I haven't read Leland's books recently, hopefully my memory is accurate.

One thing he wrote is that spirits don't have a way to release anger. So if a person dies with anger, that person's spirit has to go into a living person's body in order to release that anger. He wrote that this is why some people have Turrets Syndrome. ??

He wrote this is what happens with possessed people. They get possessed so a spirit can have an anger moment. I believe there is a lot more to it than that.

He wrote that such spirits use the body of a person who is in a Coma.?????

He wrote that the spirits of people who just died get stuck in their body and have to be pushed out. ????

There were a few other things, this is all I can remember now.

It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg. If I remember correctly he compared what Swedenborg said to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is interesting that he wrote about Swedenborg since what he states is quite different than what Swedenborg states.

As far as I remember Kurt wrote that it can happen that spirits stuck with excess of emotions that prevent from moving forward in the afterlife can bleed it off in several ways into physical reality, where the energy is basically ground down, broken up and filters back to other uses.

He portrays several ways of this happening, one symbolized in a sort of centrifuge in Otherwhere, where the emotions just seem to be extracted into the astral plane. So those deceased persons seem to have brought only minor residues to the afterlife and pass through the stages quickly.

A strong excess would usually attract spirits to the lower astral planes according to the principle that like attracts like (like in Bob Monroe's "Ball of Lust" hell). The cases of the "lightning rod" effect seem to be stronger cases where other means are not sufficient. IIRC also Bob Monroe wrote about spirits with alcohol problems in life looking for the vicinity of angry drunkards.

The thing about the anger release is not only something happening to the deceased. We all seem to do it while we are alive, that's why psychic hygiene like regular meditation is so important. I had a dream experience once where another person tried to release their emotions on me in the same way, but I protected myself. This was a person in the same household.

Possession is a complex topic, and I don't think Kurt gave a final opinion on that one. (EDIT: I'd also add personally that the term is used interchangeably for a wide range of phenomena with different cause and severity.)

IIRC he wrote that the etheric body is not always completely separated from the dying physical body at death, but that this eventually takes place for everyone. I would think of it as lingering in the vicinity until the link fully dissolves. Certain burial rites seem to speed this process of separation, like burning the body IIRC.

He wrote about Swedenborg in a comparative "study" of several views of the afterlife - including the Tibetan idea of "Bardo" states, Swedenborg, Dante's Inferno (in Otherwhere), NDEs and other experiences.

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O

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #22 - Jan 25^th, 2013 at 8:22am

PauliEffectt wrote on Jan 25^th, 2013 at 6:50am:

I think it is unlikely that Swedenborg managed to make much astral travels
to other places than Focus 25. A person who only can go to F 25, can have
severe problems in helping people reach F 27.

I think this view on the Focus levels is too limited. Being a practicing Christian does not prevent one from experiencing higher planes of existence.

I personally think that Swedenborg did not always do the best possible inner translation of what he has seen, but it would be oversimplified to say "He cannot have been there for his Christian beliefs."

The Belief System Territories as postulated by Monroe may receive their share of spirits during the afterdeath journey, I can readily believe that. But I think their purpose is to lay off the limiting beliefs one held during life. The movement of the discarnate in the afterlife seems to be very limited, dictated by the limiting emotions and beliefs needing to be cleared on the astral and lower mental planes.

A conscious explorer is a different kind of visitor in the afterlife. With sufficient training and experience such a visitor can experience a great deal of "mobility." Even if one holds some limiting beliefs one can reach many places and is not as constrained as a newly deceased spirit would be.

Swedenborg was such a visitor. He brought back information that was helpful in his time and age, and even today I sometimes see people refer to some of the images he brought back and reinterpret them in helpful ways.

So to me it is not an "either this or that" thing. I would personally see Swedenborg as more capable as you'd like to admit, at the same time I would also caution myself to see his limitations, stemming from the context he came from and his personal makeup of beliefs.

To me an explorer of consciousness does not become wrong and inaccurate by having said a thing I disagree with or that seems to be in error. That's just human. Similarly, verification in one specific aspect does not guarantee other information brought through by this person is correct. This would be an incorrect transference between areas I would see as distinct.

So, Swedenborg may have said some things we may disagree with now. I already showed that part of what he said makes sense to me, but that it requires interpretation. He may not have found the most accurate picture to represent it, he may not have described it in terms we would deem accurate, but I think his description of "marriage in heaven" does still contain enough truth to be worth interpreting.

Bob Monroe's first book is full of absurd inaccuracies ("when the Big One comes", a name set into the astral plane in enormous letters, and many other things), yet I still recognise and acknowledge the genius of that man. He helped trigger a major transformation in my life.

To me every afterlife explorer is essentially a clairvoyant. Some interpretation is always required. Often experiences are revisited years later and made sense of in a different way.

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PauliEffectt

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #23 - Jan 25^th, 2013 at 9:21am

O wrote on Jan 25^th, 2013 at 8:22am:

I think this view on the Focus levels is too limited. Being a practicing
Christian does not prevent one from experiencing higher planes of existence.

I think that's what happened to Swedenborg.

All those other Focus Levels which Monroe saw, were out of sight for
Swedenborg. The only other region Swedenborg saw in a Hollow Heaven
was that of Muslims, and even there Swedenborg had a colored view, as
he saw Muslims place "below" the Christians (who were closer to God).

So just by not being able to see any other BSTs, I would say that Swedenborg was
limited in his capabilities of travelling around in the nonphysical reality.

Swedenborg became sort of stuck to hundreds (thousands?) of descriptions
of "Christian" Hollow Heavens and Hells in his many books.

Why no African religions? Why no Buddhistic religions? Why only F 25?

Swedenborg clearly had problems seeing beyond Christianity.

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recoverer Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 5027 Gender:	Re: Swedenborg flaws Reply #24 - Jan 25^th, 2013 at 1:40pm One thing Swedenborg wrote that I didn't like that relates to Pauli's thrown into hell comment, is Swedenborg's comment about a spirit being thrown into hell head first. The "head first" part sounds a bit harsh and judgmental.
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Rondele

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #25 - Jan 26^th, 2013 at 12:02pm

Well, I hesitate to bring this up because I don't really have an answer to it. It's just that it bothers me and I'd like to know how others interpret it.

As some of you have noted, ES had said that the moon was inhabited I think by human like creatures.

So the question I am grappling with is this: what affect does that have, if any, on all of his other observations and experiences?

Is it something that can be dismissed or does it cast doubt on what he reported about his voluminous explorations?

One way of looking at it is this- Einstein is known for his E=MC squared equation. But to come up with that conclusion required hundreds, maybe thousands, of other mathematical equations in order to document his famous finding.

Now, if any of those subsidiary equations were in error, other mathematicians would have challenged the ultimate outcome as being unsupported.

So....if ES was so obviously mistaken about something he wrote, not from his own speculation but from an other-worldly source, does that or does it not cast doubt, or at least a question, on all of the other things he reported which were also from other worldly sources?

At first it really didn't bother me, but I have to confess that the more I think about it, the more I have to wonder.

Thoughts?

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isee Ex Member	Re: Swedenborg flaws Reply #26 - Jan 28^th, 2013 at 12:19pm Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff. Why focus on all this baloney?
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smidee New Member Offline Posts: 11	Re: Swedenborg flaws Reply #27 - Jan 28^th, 2013 at 12:39pm Quote: Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff. Why focus on all this baloney? Looks like Pauli's ego has gotten the best of him.
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PauliEffectt

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #28 - Jan 28^th, 2013 at 1:44pm

Quote:

Why are you doing this? Berserk already said he doesn't believe this stuff.

No, Berserk has not.

Nothing so far.

Berserk has said nothing if you re-read his few posts in this thread. Besides vague
sentences, I can't find any explicit statement on _anything_ being wrong of
Swedenborg.

Just vague, vague...

---

Instead I've found things like this, praises to ES (Swedenborg) without
boundary and stabs at Monroe/Moen.

So...

Guess, what.

I began examining this fellow Swedenborg to figure out if _any_ of Berserk's
high praises held water, because Berserk had few specifics in his writings
on Swedenborg, just a lot of rather unclear words.

And what I found, I have too some part put in this thread.

Does that sound strange?

Perhaps you should take a look at Berserk's past posts? I will show you
a few quotes below, but I want to keep them short. You'll have to click
on the referring link to get to the full content.

Otherwise, no.

Berserk has answered nothing.

No answers.

---

If Berserk is right and Swedenborg is the best astral traveller ever and
all the other astral travellers are poor crap, then Swedenborg should
hold for a simple examination, shouldn't he?

So why is Berserk not answering any questions if Swedenborg is such
great explorer? After all, those are Berserk's claim.

---

Some quotes here - shortened though (click "Berserk wrote" below to get to the full posts):

Berserk wrote on Dec 27^th, 2006 at 2:41am:

But ES was the most gifted astral adept who ever lived. Just read my reports of his
awesome verifications. He is universally considered a unique genius.

Modern adepts like Robert Monroe are nowhere close to being in the same class.

Berserk wrote on Sep 13^th, 2005 at 3:58pm:

And it is simply dishonest for you to ignore the consistency and quality of ES's
verifications that underpin his astral claims, especially when Moen and Monroe
suffer so much by comparison. Intuition is no substitute for logic.

Berserk wrote on Mar 8^th, 2007 at 6:23pm:

I suspect from my reading that neither Bruce Moen nor Robert Monroe has had
much experience with ES's heavens.

In my view, ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than the modern adepts
I have read.

Perhaps, that is the reason why neither Monroe nor Moen experiences extensive
teaching form Jesus or God.

Berserk wrote on Sep 13^th, 2005 at 1:24pm:

In my view, it is not a question of ES being better at contacting the dead than
Monroe and Moen; it is a question of ES being able to do what Monroe and
Moen can only pretend to do on a regular basis.

When Moen was unable to work, he gladly accepted the generous donations of site
members. Why didn't he charge money for his services and contact deceased loved
ones of site members. Because he can't do it and won't admit it!

Don

Berserk wrote on Sep 14^th, 2005 at 1:09pm:

As for my criticisms of the Monroe-Moen claims, the cultic mentality of their followers
is eloquently demonstrated by their inability to sense the absurdity...

These are a few posts of Berserk. There are more such trash-talks.

isee, do you get me?

If the shining castle turns to dust when I take a closer look at it,
isn't something wrong?

If Swedenborg is such a great guy, then why can't those question
marks be straightened out?

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DocM

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Re: Swedenborg flaws
Reply #29 - Jan 28^th, 2013 at 2:36pm

Pauli,

Most people have not responded to your thread, because you appear to be trying to start a fight and are not seriously considering the issues. Honestly, your posts read like they were writte by a young kid with a chip on his shoulder.

No one, not Don or anyone else would say that ES was not merely a man. Therefore, to find flaws in his writing or idea of life on the moon, etc. might be relevant if he were omnipotent - but he was just a man.

However, for me, the vexing part of you entire thread is that it is clear that you don't take the time to read his works like Heaven and Hell in depth. You have an agenda - to "disprove Swedenborg," and you cherry pick what you want without reading and trying to appreciate what he did in the 1700s. I have read Heaven and Hell, and 2 other texts - they are not easy reading if you are interested, but they are enlightening.

So let us recap here:

1. ES was a gifted intelligent person who had verifications just like many people do. Others of his time took note of his verified communications (much like Monroe, Bruce, mediums and other explorers have had their own verifications).

2. Your thread loses credibility when you don't read a book/text first (completely and with an open mind) and then cherry pick your responses claiming to discredit this man.

3. Your taunts to Don appear rather childish - while he can respond in kind, I doubt he will. And I wouldn't want to see that kind of pissing contest, quite frankly.

Matthew

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