The Bible does not merely teach that God honors our free will to do good or evil; it also teaches that we are all victims of the forces of chaos--that God sets in motion the laws of nature and does not micro-manage these laws.  From this biblical perspective, the Newtown massacre poses no philosophical problem. 

But a problem arises from miracles that result from faith in crisis and correctly offered petitionary prayer.   Do these "miracles" satisfy some poorly understood spirtual principles, conditions not met by the parents of the slain children?  Even posing such a question strikes me as offensive.  For example, I would be intrigued by the answer to the following question, but would be disgusted if any researcher tried to pose it to the grieving parents: How many parents of the slain and surviving children prayed for their safety and protection that  day?  How long were these prayers?  What assumptions determined the quality of these prayers and the attendant expectations?  The fact is, we are far too emotionally engaged with such senseless tragedies to even ask many key questions.

When I was a pastor in Buffalo, we held a weekly prayer meeting at our chruch.  One day, I received a certain premonition that someone in the group and their family were in danger of grievous harm.  Unlike other such premonitions, this one did not include the source of the harm or the specific people it threatened.  So what did I do?  Almost every week, our small group (4-6) closed with a prayer circle: we  held hands and I closed by praying for protection for them and their families for the coming week.  They probably thought that I did the same thing in every prayer group that I led, but that assumption was false.  I have never done it before or since. 

Eventually, I moved on and left that church, ultimately pastoring a church across the country in Washington state.  Before I left Buffalo, I heard that the new pastor had cancelled that prayer group.  I at once shuddered and thought, "Now the evil suppressed by our prayer gruop will happen!"  This insistent thought was unwanted; it was horribly present and certain.  I tried to suppress as the product of my paranoia.  Shortly thereafter, Eleanor's son (Nick) hung himself in his mother's garage, distraught over a failed marriage.  Not long after that, Eleanor was killed in a fiery car wreck.  "So she was the praye group member in danger?"  I thought.  She never missed the group even in those times when only 3 or 4 showed up. 

I found out later that their liviing room antique clock had stopped 3 times: at the time of Nick's death, a tthe time4 of Eleanor's death, , and (many years earlier) at the time of her husband's death.  Also, I learned from Eleanor's sister that Eleanor had had a "take-away dream" the night before her death.  Her late husband had descended the stairs of their home and said, "Come on up, honey,  and dance with me."  He then identified the late family members who were present at the dance.  Eleanor used to love dancing with her husband, but she took this as a symbol of death, and declined the creepy invitation. 

Surely this whole macabre experience has important  implications for tragedies like the Newtown child massacre.  But I am reluctant to try to idenitfy them because doing so would arrogantly presume lessons for all such mass tragedies.  The only lesson I confidently draw is that prayers for protection can be effective; so if you feel so moved to pray, it is important that you do so. 

Don

Pauli,

Really?  What do you get from disparaging the bible?  Even if you do not believe in it, the Bible was written by men, to try to interpret the word of God.  It is best interpreted in that light.  If our consciousness does survive physical death, then the thoughts and beliefs matter, as do lessons learned. 

Some stories and parables in the Bible are meant to teach through allegory and example.  Other laws handed down by men (stoning sinners, etc.) are best interpreted as an outdated law forged in a wild time, which we no longer need. 

One takes from the Bible what one wants (or not) much like the rest of life.  But calling it "a joke," does nothing to address Don's comments about the use of prayer (thought coupled to intent), as proactive means of protection against tragedies.

Don, I personally have found that prayer does make a difference by changing probabilities in the physcial world.  Still, probabilities are in flux, and unpredictable.  Could a change in probable outcomes have caused this gunman to pick a different classroom?  To kill himself prior to someone else being killed?

It is hard to say.  And the idea that the parents would have to say a prayer of protection on a daily basis seems perhaps illusory and missing the mark.  When 200,000 people were swept away by a tsunami, or the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, with a huge number of casualties, I think it is clear that these were unpredictable events, that were huge energetic shifts in the physical plane.

What is best for spiritual growth?  I humbly say that I don't know.  I (and many others) feel that there is something special about being "alive," that physical life is a gift.  We cling to it with a tenacity beyond measure.  But is the transition to the afterlife something to be avoided so strongly?  Are there some afterlife scenarios that are more challenging and more pleasant than physical life?  This remains unanswered.

I feel that if there is more for us to accomplish here, in the physical world - a personal goal or achievement - that is important.  Or if we are here to protect another or with a mission to create something, anything that is important to us. 

Still Don, your post makes one think, and consider the place of thought coupled with conviction in terms of helping to shape the outcome of our lives.


Matthew

I think people will change their attitude towards killing if they accept the knowledge of the masters of light.
They say that you irreversibly attune yourself to a sphere of darkness if you kill somebody.
And because you interfere with the plan of God by taking someone's physical life away you have to make up for that. Usually that means you will have to give that person a physical life back. That means that in a next life you will be the mother of the one you killed.
If that person has already completed it's cycle on Earth then Mother Earth will find another way to even up the score. Because you don't get away with it for nothing. The scale must be balanced.

Before I knew that I was able to kill, like in a war situation. After I read those books I was no longer able to do that anymore. I don't want that on my plate. That's not what I am looking for.

The Bible is filled with stupidity. Retrievals are degraded to the Devil. [/quote]


Pauli, despite your bibilcal illiteracy, you are willing to pontificate on subjects about which you are uneducated.  In fact, early Christianity, including the Bible, provides the first literary evidence for a belief in soul retrievals. 

Matthew, in the experience I describe, I am confident that Eleanor and her son, Nick, would still be alive if our protective group prayers had continued.  My premonition in that case was the latest in a series of premonitions that never failed to come true.  In the Oklahoma City bombing, family members prayed for the safety of children scheduled to be present in the Murrah federal building, and amazing coincidences conspired to kepp them safe.  We have no record of large numbers of people praying for the safety of others in the building, who were nevertheless killed in the blast.  I'm just saying that we need more than prejudicial preconpetions to address the question of who is and is not protected through prqyer.  But I'm convinced that our prayer group's prayers for family safety keep us all safe as long as the prayer group met and prayed for protection.  So such prqyers seem a good idea.  What I don't know are the implications of this whole experience, with its many paranormal elements, for mass murders in general.  But I'm confident that there is admittedly unknown wisdom on this issue that might prove helpful. 

Don

rondele wrote on Dec 17^th, 2012 at 8:12pm:


I may as well chime in my 2 cents.  I agree with you.  And for those of us trying so hard to perform a retrieval but aren't feeling, seeing, or getting anything, then it's always good to just step back from exhautive efforts and just feel and send love, prayers, and loving thoughts.  That kind of energy and intention does work whether we feel, see, or know the results.  Always. 

I think another misconception about Retrievals is the need for the person attempting to do one to have some immediate result, experience, or amazing proof.  And that's ironic isn't it?  The whole point of helping is to have faith and trust in your intention, whether or not you obtain proof or results in some way that makes you believe it worked.  I believe the work is being done simply with love and intention, and we here in the physical contribute to that effort with our thoughts and emotions. 

Like you said in another post, asking to be guided to someone in need of retrieval is the way to do it.  I think it will give the kind of results people want to see.  I feel so bad over this tragedy in CT and have cried several times.  I know for myself that when I'm this emotionally connected or upset over something or someone, then it's nearly impossible for me to just demand an experience to come my way regarding that person, whether it's retrieval, contact, dream, OBE, etc.  That's why when doing Retrieval work, you can have easier, more immediate results, experience, or "proof" by asking a Helper to guide you.  You're more open to a broader range of experience instead of focusing on what you want to have happen.

DocM,

"One takes from the Bible what one wants (or not) much like the rest of life.  But calling it "a joke," does nothing to address Don's comments about the use of prayer (thought coupled to intent), as proactive means of protection against tragedies."

Prayer is, wikipedia says, an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication. "Entity, please protect us". Can this prevent harm? No joke there, or, maybe a joke is that the jesus character forgot about the power of prayer on the way to being crucified, and thus paved way for an epic IOY?

Don,

As another biblical illiterate; on the same list as you shall not kill, as discussed in this thread, I also eye one about not coveting someone's au pair, or anything that is your neighbour's - ox, donkey, faith, and so on. I wonder if neighbor means an actual physical neighbour? Can one move down a block or to another area if the neighbour is of the inconvenient sort?

Bob,

Seriously?  Wikipedia as a gold standard?  Ah, well.  To each his own. 

My personal definition of prayer is different.  I believe successful prayer is based on the combination of thought with intent and thankfulness. I don't believe in a separate relationship for petitioner and  a distant anthropomorphic deity.  Prayer is not a mere "request," or pleading.  Prayer (to me) is an active process whereby the petitioner/person harnesses their own creative power of intent, and hitches it on to the cosmic force of God which is within each of us.  I don't therefore see a separation, more a getting in touch with the coupling of thought with intent without being confounded with other fleeting thoughts/intentions.   

Of course others may see it differently, as is there right.  My idea of what constitutes prayer is an active process where we have a role, and not a passive supplicant. 

Matthew