I know the typical posts here are from those seeking solace with the concept of dying, either from their interests, fears, or personal account of death in their family, with friends, etc. Or those who are a little more refined and have an unheralded amount of knowledge and information about the Afterlife. I came here as the first person described...afraid out of my mind because I was afraid of death. I have since overcome it, and have befriended a few people from here over the years who have given me tons of resources and information to stop my doubt. Now, here I am, in a great moment of my life, and sometimes I look forward to death instead of enjoying this life. Why?

Because so many things are just a let down. I live in the United States of America and I see kids dying in Syria and families starving to death in N. Korea and the people around me could care less. So I read the news and after a big election here, the President was named and I see 30 States wanting to succeed the Union and disband from the U.S. So, I dismiss that and go to church in Houston, Texas and enjoy the sermon, just to find out later from a friend that the pastor who preached was involved in a homosexual sex scandal with an under aged young man a decade ago. And that is when I get sick and wonder when we I get a break from all of this!?

This World, from a collective view, is becoming more and more immoral, corrupt, evil, and sick by the day. Religion is under fire, kids are doing any and everything without accountability, leaders are corrupt, people you trust in are corrupt. I mean, I don't want to go on complaining as if there aren't great positives in my life, but it's difficult to understand why I chose to come here to endure THIS. For what? Enlightenment? Seriously? Where is everyone else's enlightenment? Are we that weak an an entity, to where a vast amount of us are these sub-standard, carefree, destructive individuals? And in given a choice I wanted to come here and be uncomfortable being surrounded by all of this?

So with all of that said, I just want to know, is it wrong, or does anyone else find more peace in NOT being here one day? Where life after dying has to be better than what this World has to offer! It just saddens me, as a Father of 3 young children, to have to create a sense of reasoning for these things when my kids ask about it. We had a conversation just yesterday about racism and stereotypes that my oldest son was studying in Sociology, and I was trying to explain how ignorance is what makes people judge other people's walks of life. And when my younger son asked "why do people hate me because I am Black"....I didn't have a real answer for him. Ignorance is not a REAL answer. Because that does not change his reality! And it puts me in a space to where I again am asking, why do we "choose" this? To suffer to become better? Well, if that is the case, is it wrong to get tired of the "suffering" and look forward to a better World? That is my question today....

Food for thought. I am often grateful that I have no children to explain such things to and, yet, we are all parents in some way shape or form, as an elder generation.

I do, at times, look forward to death, because I have come to believe it may hold great joy, possibilities which don't really exist at this level, in this life.

But, this life is more than just "those who suffer". And, for most people, I think there is more to their lives than the negative things they know about, or experience, or to which they make some contribution.

Even at the worst times in my life I remember what my mother said about the worst times in her life -- she said sometimes the thing that keeps her hanging on is that someone might make her laugh. It's true, we can still laugh, strangely, during some of the most terrible of times. Children know this.

I agree with Mogenblue that we are bombarded with knowledge we would often rather not know, knowledge which can be a burden to us.

And yet, how would we learn compassion otherwise? How would we learn how to truly love, not just when times are easy, but when times are tough? Not that I think "suffering" is a worthy "goal" or anything like that. Just that, overcoming barriers of the heart and mind, growing as a person, doesn't always come easily.

Just as you have empathy for those who suffer in this world, so will your children. They will see, feel, how much you care. They will learn how to care from you, how to weather the good times and the bad.

And, just as you have compassion for others, you have compassion for yourself. Thus, you have found a way to look forward to an afterlife. I find no shame in that, but simply hope. It is important to have hope. That's what I think. It gives you a direction, a place to be heading for, a certain reward.

Quote:


Can't recall at what age my son would have understood the folowing, maybe it isn't important to deeply understand, but would your son understand

"because they do not love themselves, and it is easy to project that on to people who are physically different."

This is sort of related: yesterday on "Fresh Air" Terry Gross interviwed a man who has written a book about parents and children who are likely to be stigmatized, and come to terms with it. YOur question brought me back to that interview. Maybe the answer to "Why?" is in the resolution some of these peope have found about a different but parallel situation:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/12/164958401/parenting-a-child-whos-fallen-far-from-t...

I wrestle with parts of your question a lot because I really don't want to be here a lot of the time; I get tired of my own personal hassles I guess! Like a line from a song:


For the Lord's cross might redeem us but our own just wastes our time

(Hard Love by Bob Franke
http://www.bobfranke.com/lyrics.htm  )

Sorry I'm wandering here..we are having wine and not coffee, right?

So the question is always "What am I doing Here????" Stop the planet, I want to get off!!!!

and all the mystical answers always come back that it has something to do with learning about love, Sometimes that is hard to swallow.

And then a connected question is, would we do better if we knew that more consciously? That is such a deep philosophical dilemma to me.  Seth and others liek that have claimed that we came here and forgot what we were on that other side and our egos grew too big. So maybe we could do this journey with smaller egos and be happier? but what does that all mean? (By too big ego, I don't mean ego trip, I mean we forget to connect to whatever version of God we hold dear in our day-to-day life).

So does that help with the day-to-day suffering? Maybe. I have a lot of self -rejection so long story short I am working more on self-love. So this is really strange to me: I leanred a little meditation using ideas we all know but this one has a little twist:

You put your two hands over your heart and you say "I love ME."

Now the hands are warm so it feels nice and there actually does seem to be a difference about using "me" instead of "myself." Don't know why.

But when I feel like people are being hateful to me this helps me feel better. Wish I had learned this as a kid. 

Eben Alexander talks about this question (of why are we here and why don't we do this earth trip while feeling the love of the universe) in his interview with Bob Olsen (see thread under Afterlife TV if you are interested). I don't think he answers it but I think lots of people must ask this question. I wasn't satisfied with whatever he said at the end of the interview; maybe he is saving it for his second book. Bit one does wonder, why do some of these NDErs get "sent back" when they are having such a great time THERE. Some agree to comeback. Why? Why? Why? There must be something important here.

So maybe it is to learn love that your child sometime suffers, love either for others or for himself. And maybe sometimes it will be hard love. And maybe we can search for the answers together. (And then we can sing another Franke song on that link:
Allelujah the Great Storm Is Over)

Should we or another group of people be the guideline if you or others are allowed to look forward to death? Are you putting too much focus on what makes you look forward to death? If the collective makes you feel ill at ease, how can you carry a breath and not suffer? What can you change and what isn't for you to change?

"A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs. It's jolted by every pebble on the road." - Henry Ward Beecher

Mogen, how did you become a such an excellent ditch-digger, sort of fell into it?

Awww Mogen, I don't always dissolve into tears, but when I do I form a puddle of water, rock back and forth to create the soothing tones of ocean surf. Lovely pink noise. Can you imagine a surfer riding ascending waves, then making a splash? Imagine all the surfers, living for today? Now imagine I'm death. Looking forward to meeting me yet? Suddenly want to be forever young? Can you imagine when this race is won, turn our golden faces into the sun? So when you look into the sun and see the words you could have sung: It's not too late, only begun.

"I think the next best thing to solving a problem is finding some humor in it." - Frank A. Clark

So I have had the occasional bottle of wine...  ; ) as in ;  ) ,  not in

JG, I have studied the books of Jozef Rulof in detail. I will tell you that Master Zelanus really got to my heart.
After all these books I now go by one lead motto: Just keep on breathing.

It will be worth it.
There is nothing else that you have to do. Everything else will follow by itself:
if you are hungry you go to the fridge
if the fridge is empty you go to the supermarket
if you have no money you are in deep s**t.

Well, I have solved the latter problem. My income is no problem.
I am so happy to live here in Holland. I am happy you US people protect us from any Taliban invasion, other than that.. what can I say?
There is no way I would trade my country for any other.

Have a good day JG.
Like Lucy said: other people just don't love themselves.
Life is good.

You're welcome Lucy.

x

-Mogy

If someone takes with them doubt, fear, sorrow, and they happen to die, those feelings will be brought over.  Not everyone enters a glorious park with loved ones and daffodils. 

Swedenborg discovers tjat even souls destined for lower planes have an initial joyous encoutner with a beautiful park.  Then the principle of like attracts like kicks in and their core desires emerge from their superficial qualities that depend on the privacy of their thoughts and intents in earth life.  They are then slowly drawn to lower planes that reflect their level of progress towards PUL. 

btw, why have so many posters here assumed that all experiences of a park must reflect their location in Focus 27?   "Park" is a psychological archetype; so there must be countless "parks" on many levels of spiritual planes. 

Don

I believe that what Doc said is basically true.  If we develop ourselves spiritually not only does it benefit us while in this World, it also benefits us when we rejoin the spirit World.

However, the fulfillment that is available in the spirit World far surpasses the fulfillment that is available while incarnated in this World. This World includes imperfections that don’t exist in the spirit World once you move to a higher level.

For example, consider my situation at work. I like the people I work with and they like me, but I don’t fit in. None of them are into spirituality. None of them are able to experience divine love and peace on a regular basis.  Since they haven’t sought divine love within themselves, they don’t seek it by being drawn to people who are able to experience it.

In a way this is similar to what happens in the spirit World. Just as spirits are drawn to other spirits and where they abide on a like attracts basis, people are drawn to people they resonate with.

In order for a coworker to get close to me, he (or she) would have to be willing to become aware of levels of reality they don’t want to be aware of. As a result, even though I am surrounded by people, I am basically alone while at work.

For the most part I don’t mind being alone while at home by myself (I live alone), but when surrounded by others, it’s kind of odd. If I were in the spirit World I know that I wouldn’t be alone. In fact, I feel closer to the friendly spirits I communicate with than I do with the people I know.

If it wasn’t for the fact that I am here to help out, I wouldn’t have a problem with returning to the spirit World sooner rather than later.

I wonder how many people get completely over sexual desire while incarnated in a body. I've given it a shot without success.

However, I don't long for sexual gratification to the same extent as I long for divine love and peace. When I really want to feel fullfilled only divine love and peace will do the trick. Nevertheless, I still find women quite attractive.

Roger,

I think you are losing the forest for the trees here.  Swedenborg may talk about each of us having an inner love that we are inexorably drawn to, but while you see this as a fatalism (or unbreakable pre-destination for a heaven or hell), I am not sure that I do.

How about this; that we all have an inner love which we can direct, either parallel to  (or in accordance with) God's love, or away from God's love in a selfish manner.  So that we all, to some extent, could feed our own inner loves in accordance with God's love (namely love of others and love of God), or choose to  pursue our own selfish ends. 

Let us say one's nature was that of problem solving - getting satisfaction from plumbing the depths of a riddle and solving a puzzle.  One could use this to help others (let us say through helping people through solving a puzzle as a scientist, making a discovery to help others), or to help oneself - i.e. a person who loves solving puzzling issues to make money, to have material wealth, with no concern for how this inner love is used. 

I would therefore put it that all inner loves may be nurtured along the path toward God's love, or toward unloving ends.  It is our choice how we direct our inner  love.

If God's love is the foundation of our very being, then it would not make sense that some of us are born with a fundamental love for the opposite of this foundation.  It is more that we allow our inner nature to flow with the channel of love or we close ourselves off to pure love by willingly choosing a path of hate. 

I very much doubt that a fundamentally good person, who, as you state Roger was also obsessed with lust would have to willingly consign themselves to a hell centered around personal lust.   To some degree, sexual arousal is a state of the physical world.  In the post mortem realm, what are the person's tendencies and inclinations?  Is it just to think of their own personal satifiction, or are they open to love of God and love of others?  To the extent that they are open to love of God and of others, so can they develop in the afterlife, regardless of whether or not they also lusted in their heart or had other weaknesses.

Matthew   

Doc-

Well, first of all I personally don't subscribe to what I called ES' gloomy view of the afterlife.  That's why I ended the post by indicating that ES' view of things might have colored what he saw and reported.  Interpreter overlay if you will.

Second, all I can do is cite some references.  Van Dusen's book (The Presence of Other Worlds) on ES says "To underline the central role of the ruling love, Swedenborg referred to it at various times as a person's life itself, his own Self, his character, the essence of his life, his soul, and the very form of his spirit."  Pg 111

ES, in Heavenly Doctrine 57, says "Everything about us comes from the primary tendency of our life.  This is what distinguishes us from other people.  If we are good we make our heaven according to it, and if we are bad we make our hell according to it.  It is our basic motivation, our personality, and our character, since it is the reality of our life.  It cannot be changed after death because it is our essential self."  Italics mine.

If we choose to do good things, that doesn't seem to be something that will alter our essential self IF it is not consistent with that self.  And therefore, per ES, what happens to us when we die is pretty much set in stone.

Again, I don't personally agree with ES.  And maybe he's not really saying what he seems to be saying.  In any case it remains, as I said before, a rather gloomy picture.

R

And then there's this:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/swedenborg_and_dr._oz

It certainly sheds a different light on ES and his discoveries.

R

Matthew, very well stated and I agree with your interpretation of what ES communicates.

Roger, I'm sure you'd agree that all models in which we try to describe our greater reality are limited and therefore can only be flawed at least to a certain degree because we can only communicate them based on our human perspectives influenced by our cultures.  Though I must say it is fascinating to try to discover meaning and truth from the various ones that are put out there.  I think we need to remember that Van Dusen's book is his own interpretation of what ES communicates.  My interpretation of what ES means by "ruling love" is like what Matthew is saying though I break it down a bit more.

Consciousness is the basic, fundamental reality upon which all else arises.  Nothing truly exists except consciousness.  Consciousness is primary, but since our ideas about what consciousness means are so limited by our cultures, I think it is easier to model it as our core essence and to say it is essence that gives rise to consciousness, that gives rise to mind, that gives rise to matter.  Our core essence is the most essential nature of our being and is completely unique to each of us. It is our "ruling love" as ES puts it.

Our core essence has been there within each of us since before the beginning of time and is far beyond the limitations of time, space and belief.  It is the individualized aspect of the divine, of God within and from this place within each of us is where we live and move and have our being.  We can easily recognize it as that which we have always known ourselves to be since birth.  In this place we are full of wisdom, love and courage. 

Our inner essence has not really changed with time since our physical birth, nor will it have changed at the time we die.  No negative experiences have ever really tainted it.  Sure, our reactions to negative experiences may have covered it, or shrouded it, but they have never really changed it because it is our most basic nature, the deeper goodness that is within each of us.  It is from this place within, the eternal fountainhead from which all our creative energies arise.

Everything we have ever done in our life began with both good intent and with pleasure.  To break it down more specifically, all creative acts/actions follow the same course in the journey into the physical.  It first manifests as consciousness within our core essence, then as intent, then as life energies that well up into the physical.  When these energies flow directly from the core through positive/loving intent, through the personality, through the physical body, we create joy, health and wellbeing in our lives as well as in the lives of others.

When we block the creative energies arising from the core with negative/fearful intent, we eventually create pain and suffering in our lives as well as the lives of others.  Yet, we need to have both positive and negative experience as a way to evolve consciousness.  We need duality in order to learn, understand and grow.  We are never separated from our core essence, it is who we really are, it is our essential self, it is our ruling love.  Experiencing a single lifetime in this or any other physical reality cannot change our inner nature or our inner being very much.  Evolutionary change does occur, but if we consider the immenseness of the essence of which we are a part of, evolution is a very slow process and a single lifetime is likely to have only the tiniest measurable impact if any at all.

Kathy

PS  Roger, interesting skeptical article.  Sounds to me like the author is writing to the skeptical world without doing his homework... just picking and choosing what he personally finds outrageous including Dr. Oz.  lol  

I've never read the ES book he mentions so couldn't speak to anything this person says about it.

I am quite sure there are toilets in the afterlife isee.
I heard about international toilet day too but had completely forgotten about it.