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Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it (Read 67589 times)
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #45 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 1:13pm
 
Rondelle:

I ordered the book but haven’t received it yet.  Going by what Natalie said on the two video interviews I watched, she does express a Conversations with God like belief that it doesn’t matter what happens in this World because it is all just a big game of pretend.

To an extent this is true; however, clearly the game has gotten out of hand.  For example, many people including children are forced into prostitution, and many women are abused by their boyfriend or husband. This is so not because this is what their souls desire and require, but because the people who harm others use their freewill in a very negative way. To say that negative manifestation isn’t a possibility is the same thing as saying freewill isn’t a possibility.

When it comes to why hard to deal with lives are allowed to continue, I suppose the plug could be pulled on this game we call life (I’ve received spirit messages stating that this is a possibility), but then we’d just have to start all over again and we’d probably end up making the same or similar mistakes.

Going by what feels right to me, and some of the spirit messages I received, beings of and love and light (including God), aren’t A okay with all of the negative things that happen in this World. One time I was shown an image of Jesus on the cross and he was feeling great pain for what goes on in this World. Some of the messages I have received made the point that things need to get better.

A person doesn’t become an infallible and perfect master just because he (or she) had a near death experience. Each person will interpret what he experienced according to his own bias. It could be that Natalie is a bit premature with the “it doesn’t matter what happens in this World” business.





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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #46 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 1:27pm
 
Rondelle:

I'd like to add something to my last post.

In his 3rd book Bruce Moen wrote that light beings cry when a soul that is helped out of a lower realm is energetically pulled back into a lower realm (I don't remember the exact words).

Why in heck do they cry if it's all just a big game for which it doesn't matter what happens?
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Rondele
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #47 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 1:46pm
 
Albert-

I hope you post a review after you read it.  I'd like to know your reactions.

Btw this whole thing about pre-birth agreements raises some obvious questions.

Right now, for example, Syria is slaughtering its own citizens.  Last I heard over 20,000 men, women and children are dead.  Soldiers were making parents watch while they killed or tortured their children and vice versa.  The carnage is continuing.

Ok, Sudman would say this was all pre-arranged.  The problem is, exactly what kind of lesson is this supposed to convey?  That killing is bad?  That torture is bad?  We know that.  And moreover, does the lesson get more effective if 20,000 people are murdered vs 10,000??

As Stalin said, one death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic.   

For me, this notion of pre-arranged killing ends up taking the killers off the hook.  Heck, they actually were just fulfilling their end of the bargain.  Those who were killed agreed to it before birth.

You know, a sociopath would just love this theory.  A person who enjoys killing would certainly enjoy it even more knowing that his victims agreed to be killed before he plunged in his knife or fired his gun. 

Not to mention knowing that he is fundamentally holy and therefore will not have to face any kind of punishment after he dies.  Just a jolly time as he and his victims are entertained by how they and he just "happened" to be at the right place at the right time.

R

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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #48 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 2:02pm
 
Rondelle:

What about when we see somebody and share a friendly smile and say hello? It that pre-arranged, or is it simply a matter of living according to love?

If it is a matter of living according to love, then perhaps some people treat others in a negative way for reasons other than pre-arrangement.

There might be occasions when pre-arrangement does take place, but I believe it is a mistake to allow such a viewpoint to become an excuse and justification for negative behavior.

I believe it is a mistake to take on a way of thinking that limits how much we feel compassion for others.

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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #49 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 2:04pm
 
Is there a spiritual branch of all the spiritual branches that does not have a deep rooted problem with making sense of why evil exists in the first place?

Creation has free will, I've heard, but most evil acts are suppression of free will. Creation being free willed, then creation goes around trying to save the free willed creation.
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #50 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 3:22pm
 
I believe that we all have free will, it is just that some of us haven't learned to use it in a wise and loving way.


Quote:
Is there a spiritual branch of all the spiritual branches that does not have a deep rooted problem with making sense of why evil exists in the first place?

Creation has free will, I've heard, but most evil acts are suppression of free will. Creation being free willed, then creation goes around trying to save the free willed creation.

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isee
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #51 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 4:46pm
 
Yes, but a sociopath is obviously a sick person and a person on one very extreme end of the human spectrum. Why would anyone assume a sociopath would have the exact same experience or "justification" for their behavior as another person. Because we are all unique. We have all, of course, done harm in one way or another, but learning is learning. It might take more than one lifetime for the "lessons" to culminate in wisdom, meaning it is the sum total of all experience of all "versions" of the individual person's life/experience cycles which make up the rich layers of knowledge and wholeness which we might interpret as wisdom. I tend to believe that the afterlife is not so different from this life for some people, that there are stages of development, meaning, if you don't find your way here, you've got to find it there. What I keep reading is, it's a lot harder to do there, in general. Which is why we need helpers?



rondele wrote on Sep 18th, 2012 at 1:46pm:
Albert-


You know, a sociopath would just love this theory.  A person who enjoys killing would certainly enjoy it even more knowing that his victims agreed to be killed before he plunged in his knife or fired his gun. 

Not to mention knowing that he is fundamentally holy and therefore will not have to face any kind of punishment after he dies.  Just a jolly time as he and his victims are entertained by how they and he just "happened" to be at the right place at the right time.

R


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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #52 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 6:07pm
 
isee-  You're right, a sociopath would not be affected one way or the other by what Sudman or anyone else says.  Bad example.

However, Sudman does acknowledge that one downside of knowing that there is no such thing as doing "bad" things is that it might encourage some people to do what they otherwise might not.

R
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #53 - Sep 18th, 2012 at 6:19pm
 
Say a set of parents has the ability to download a personality determining program into a child they just had. If they love that child and respect its freewill they wouldn’t download to an extent that makes it so that child has no choice over what it becomes.

I figure we were all created with such a standard of love and respect. Therefore, we weren’t created with all of the attributes that are required by a wise and loving life form. It is up to us to determine what does and what doesn’t work as our souls evolve.

That being the case, some of us end up going down a negative road for a while as we try to determine what the best way of existence is. I don’t believe it is right to judge souls that go down a negative road for a while because how are they supposed to do better before they have had a chance to learn better? If they “ACTUALLY” knew better they wouldn’t manifest in a negative way as often as they have (and continue to do so).

I believe life was created in such a way even though it leads to imperfect results because in the interest of free will there isn’t another choice.

I figure that most souls volunteer to take part in the rough learning assignment of this World. Whether they had the wisdom to make such a choice wisely, that’s hard to say. Perhaps in some cases they are like children who don’t follow the advice of a wise parent. Or perhaps, those who know better understand that in the long run things will work out for the better.

I’ve had some rough periods during my life and I’d be willing to go through them again because in the end I learned from them. However, I have also gone through some difficult experiences that weren’t necessary.  Such experiences took place because of the negative actions of other people.  Or in other words, it isn’t a black or white matter. There is a lot of Grey area.








Quote:
Yes, but a sociopath is obviously a sick person and a person on one very extreme end of the human spectrum. Why would anyone assume a sociopath would have the exact same experience or "justification" for their behavior as another person. Because we are all unique. We have all, of course, done harm in one way or another, but learning is learning. It might take more than one lifetime for the "lessons" to culminate in wisdom, meaning it is the sum total of all experience of all "versions" of the individual person's life/experience cycles which make up the rich layers of knowledge and wholeness which we might interpret as wisdom. I tend to believe that the afterlife is not so different from this life for some people, that there are stages of development, meaning, if you don't find your way here, you've got to find it there. What I keep reading is, it's a lot harder to do there, in general. Which is why we need helpers?



rondele wrote on Sep 18th, 2012 at 1:46pm:
Albert-


You know, a sociopath would just love this theory.  A person who enjoys killing would certainly enjoy it even more knowing that his victims agreed to be killed before he plunged in his knife or fired his gun. 

Not to mention knowing that he is fundamentally holy and therefore will not have to face any kind of punishment after he dies.  Just a jolly time as he and his victims are entertained by how they and he just "happened" to be at the right place at the right time.

R



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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #54 - Sep 19th, 2012 at 4:52pm
 
rondele wrote on Sep 18th, 2012 at 11:51am:
First reactions after reading her "book" are these:

Structural- Definitely needed better editing.  Highly repetitive and some paragraphs are so convoluted I had to re-read them several times.  And then not even sure I understood.

Ever have a phone conversation with someone who never stops talking except to take a breath, and then if you put the phone down for a minute or so, you can pick it up and you haven't missed a beat?

Same thing with this book, it's so repetitive that you can skip several pages and pick up where you left off with no loss of continuity.

But then if it were properly edited, it would not have enough pages to justify calling it a book.

Content- The book should have had a Subtitle called "Seth Speaks- A Sequel."

I am reasonably certain the author did a lot of reading in both ACIM and especially Seth before writing the book.  Many of her insights and concepts are directly lifted from the Seth material.  Even how she describes the concepts, she uses the same examples used by Seth.

One exception is how she describes the life review.  Per Seth its purpose is to show us how our actions and our words affected others so that we may learn that our behavior has consequences.  In other words, earth is a school.

But for Sudman, the life review is when we and others with whom we associated get together and, always with great entertainment and fun, we see how well our pre-birth plans were coordinated and turned out exactly as intended.

In other words, the fact that she was blown up in Iraq was all agreed to in advance with the person(s) who planted the IED. 

No one is ever at fault for anything they may do.  Yes, a serial killer or rapist or child molester did bad things, but when seen from a broader perspective after death, all parties to the killings/rapes etc sort of congratulate themselves for the lessons learned and obtain (I'm not kidding here) great amusement and fun from what they thought, while on earth, to be horrible and awful.

So I couldn't help but think of the holocaust, and how Hitler and all the incinerated Jews had such a fabulous time afterwards.  They probably laughed themselves silly from such amusing scenes as the gas chamber and children being torn from the arms of weeping mothers.

Yes, there IS pain and suffering here on earth and no, she's not discounting that fact, but we need to realize that it's not as horrific as we might think. 

Actually, we need to realize that "enjoyment of an experience is a central criterion for the value of a life."
We are "fundamentally good, holy, cooperative, creative and amazingly cool."

And here all along I thought, per Swedenborg, that our actions have consequences and we really are accountable for the bad things we do and that evil exists and evil people serve time in Hell.  Little did I know that Hitler and Mother Teresa are equally holy.  Silly me I guess.

She admits that she is craving for a white Porsche 911, and a dream house.  But not because they are ends in themselves, no no no.  Because they are tools to allow her to enjoy her exploration of the "creativity of experience played out on the physical stage."

You see, people who think that goals such as accumulating wealth and material goods does not represent the way we should live are really just stuck with old fashioned remnants of what their religion taught about pursing wealth and other cultural limitations.  Once those notions are eroded, then we can get more things for ourselves with no guilt attached. 

Conclusion- I have no doubt that this is a strong, courageous woman who suffered greatly from her injuries.  And she probably did have some sort of paranormal experience after being blown up.

But for me, she veered way off the road somewhere along the way and is appropriating things she read in other books as if they were her own concepts or at least validated by her experiences.

Now we know why she's charging so much for her urns and other things.  Porsche's are not cheap nor are dream homes.  But for her, they are essential for her own amusement as she lives out the rest of her life.

R
ps- Don, if you want I'll send you my copy.  There is much more that she said that you in particular would raise an eyebrow or two, such as "religion tells us that good things happen to good people."


Rondele,

I just reviewed Natalie's 2nd Youtube interview and 3 points struck me: (1) She struggles to find words for her NDE and seems highly influenced by the Sethian and Monroe jargon and perspective.  (2) She labels her guides as aspects of her higher self or her "core" and implies that this higher self embraces past lives, which she prefers to reimage as parallel lives.  It is my understanding that she did not display such a perspective in her book.  Is that true?  (3) Where is the common NDE experience of light brigher than the sun that does not hurt spirit eyes, the overwhelming sense of PUL, the common features of the Past Life Review: e. g. the participation in the hurt feelings of those harmed by our words and deeds, the feelings of remorse for selfish acts recalled, the support of a loving Being of Light that gives one the strength to endure these painful memories in an atmosphere of loving support?  If this is a genuine NDE, I consider it an example of an NDE displaying low-level spiritual development, despite the obvious intellect of the percipient.   

btw, I'm very wary of excliusivistic Christian NDEs in which Jesus supposedly condemns non-Christians to eternal damnation, regardless of their spiritual awareness and opportunities.  The Jesus (Being of Light) in  the NDEs of atheist Howard Storm and George Ritchie is far more inclusive.  I suspect the line between lucid dreams and NDEs is often blurred and that those on the threshold of death often fall prey to the deceptive spirits about whom Swedenborg warns.

Don
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #55 - Sep 20th, 2012 at 4:55am
 
Berserk2 wrote on Sep 19th, 2012 at 4:52pm:
I suspect the line between lucid dreams and NDEs is often blurred and that those on the threshold of death often fall prey to the deceptive spirits about whom Swedenborg warns.


I agree with that. In Spiritual Gifts is also warned for that. But it is not always right to assess a situation on just what you see alone.

Any dream or paranormal experience has an aim of having an effect on you. Spirits that appear in your dreams or any other experience want to change your way of thinking.
But spirits have different purposes with that. Lower spirits want to change your thinking to their own benefit, while on the other hand higher spirits want to change your thinking to your benefit.

I just had this dream last night in which I was in a situation that I liked very much but did not trust competely. Guess what? Grissom and Stokes from CSI showed up and showed me the evidence I was looking for. Some kind of colored broken glass they held in a pincer that they showed me. They even showed me were in the wall they had found it.
I woke up and thought about it. It wasn't any evidence at all, they made it visible to me that I in my mind needed some evidence for the situation to be ok.

I read that spirits can impersonate anybody they want. It is a matter of attuning yourself. You have to know how to do it, but they live on the other side, they are in to that.
So, were the higher spirits trying to help me, or were the lower spirits trying to get me?
That is something I will have to work out in my own mind. I already did.
I looked at the situation as a whole and assessed it as something positive and I assessed the reluctance in my mind as something that holds me back of taking advantage of it.

So it's not always easy to say don't do this and stick to that. You are still a living being that has to grow. You have to go through your uncertainties by becoming aware of your own thinking and put them in a wider perspective.
Anyway, in this case the message of the dream was that it was the distrust in my own thinking that prohibits me of moving forward.
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #56 - Sep 20th, 2012 at 6:46am
 
I believe that there is only so far we can be swayed by "lower spirits," if we stick to our inner nature.  That is because spirits of a lower nature (without love) find that they commiserate with others of their kind most easily.  We have to allow our minds to wander on their dark or hateful path to be "in tune" with them.  Otherwise, we are beyond their reach. 

Swedenborg notes that on the afterlife planes, if a person on a hellish plane were temporarily "raised up" to a heaven, they would see nothing, just darkness.  Their spiritual sight is open to the degree that love is expressed.  Indeed he goes on to say that if by grace they could experience a heaven such as Focus 27, they would be very uncomfortable and immediately seek to go back with others of the same thought and lack of love. 

With this in mind then, one can say that while alive (incarnate) we do have choice, and that while a spirit impersonator may play on our trust, our inner nature is whatever it is (loving or not).  So perhaps our decision making could be swayed temporarily in the physical world, but probably not more than than that.


Matthew
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #57 - Sep 20th, 2012 at 10:29am
 
Whoa Roger... sounds like you didn't get much out of the book.  That's too bad, I thought you'd find some things she had to say useful.

Don,
I don't have time for a lengthy post, but after listening to the part of the interview I think you're referring to, my understanding is that she is saying during the review she's able to see not only the choices she did make, but also the choices she could have made and the direction a different choice would have taken her life.  Viewing the different directions her choices could have taken was like seeing "parallel" lives of herself and how that could have changed her current life.  If this isn't the part you're talking about perhaps you could note the time on the video and let me know and I'll go listen to that part again.  Or if Roger sends you the book, it would be easier if we were both reading the same thing.

As I mentioned before... I think she simply had an OBE rather than a classic NDE.  She calls her experience an OBE.  This is no indication of having a "low level" spiritual development either.  If it does then I guess you'd say that same thing about me since I've had similar experiences. 

Really Don sometimes you just crack me up. Grin

Kathy

Edit:  I'll quickly mention one NDE (what I'd call OBE) I read was a woman the heard a voice tell her to drive into the median... at the last moment she did, but as she did she'd left her body and commented that "she wouldn't have been in a terrible accident, her body would have." or something similar.  I was also surrounded by a multitude of beings in a NDE/OBE very similar to what Natalie describes though I was aware of the beings and myself as points of consciousness that look like stars or points of light.
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #58 - Sep 20th, 2012 at 10:46am
 
Doc-

Actually in Debates With Devils, ES says that a newcomer to the world of spirits was temporarily raised up to heaven by an angel.  The man was, by today's terms, a sex addict who bragged about his conquests but while alive was ethical and law abiding.

The man saw the reality of heaven with all of its wonders.  But then the angel opened his inner state and the man then saw a desolate landscape.

The angel explained that when a person's inner nature comes out, they see hellish things instead of heavenly ones.

Eventually he descended to join others who shared his lust.  Apparently our true inner state determines where we will end up.  It can't be hidden as it was while alive.

Don-

From what I can tell, Sudman doesn't specifically say her "Whole Self" contains other lives nor does she reference reincarnation.  However, she repeats what Seth says about parallel dimensions where every probability is played out when we make a decision in our lives.

If we marry A instead of B, there is a dimension where we did marry B.  My example but that's the point.  So in effect, yeah I guess she does reference parallel lives in that respect but doesn't go into it any further (to the best of my recollection).

R
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Re: Natalie Sudman gets blown up and laughs about it
Reply #59 - Sep 20th, 2012 at 10:50am
 
Hi Kathy-

Actually I salute her courage in light of what she went through after the IED.  She's obviously a strong person, much stronger than most people would be under similar circumstances.

I believe she did have an NDE and as a result, did lots of reading to try to understand what happened.

How much of that reading contributed to her own beliefs vs her own experiences is the question. 

R
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