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Suicides, where do they go? (Read 49777 times)
Focus27
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #15 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:00pm
 
Docm, what if the submarine is filling with water, you have a functional gun, and no hope of escape from a death of drowning, so you decide to take your own life instead?

When I talk about suicide, I mean under any and all possible circumstances. Sometimes suicide IS the answer.

I can give numerous examples of times when suicide would be considered a better form of death. Further, under these circumstances, I do not consider the person who kills themselves to be breaking any sacred bond whatsoever.


Another circumstance:

Scenario 1:
You are on a ship infected with a deadly disease. Everyone is infected. You are going to die first but not in time for the rest of the crew to investigate your remains to develop a cure. Due to the "sacred bond" you refuse to take your own life. The entire crew dies.

Scenario 2:
You are on a ship infected with a deadly disease. Everyone is infected. You are going to die first but not in time for the rest of the crew to investigate your remains to develop a cure. You take action and kill yourself so that your ships doctor has more time to investigate your remains before the rest of the crew dies. Miraculously, the doctor is able to fabricate a cure for the disease from your remains and the entire crew lives. Due to breaking the "sacred bond" you are still punished?

Sure these are odd circumstances, but I like to consider the circumstances which most people wouldn't. Most of the time we consider mental distress and meaningless suicide. But I am considering much more than that. Suicide with purpose.
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DocM
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:10pm
 
Yes, Focus 27,

There are certain situations where we take a course of action, knowing that in the physical world, it may be impossible to overcome.  The soldier who sees a live mine and throws his body over the bomb to spare his comrades is one of those situations.  You can come up with others - the cancer patient, riddled with pain, with no possibility of improvement, etc. 

So there is a difference between suicide from despair (an internal negative state of mind), and a physical situation that we are bound to based on the laws of physics.  If you were standing at the beach and a 200 foot tsunami came roaring in, you could make a mad dash and still be destroyed, or you could take a deep breath in, and hold still to a thought of a loved one when the wave crashed over you.  The outcome there might be inescapable.  I don't consider that the same state of mind as most cases of suicide.

M
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Focus27
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:35pm
 
Cool Cool.... sounds like we pretty much agree along those lines anyway!

I still think that a suicide under mental distress can result in a non-negative afterlife experience. But I concede the obvious fact that in such a situation the outcome in the afterlife is far more likely to be negative... while still retaining the possibility of the person that killed themselves may be far more intuitive and in tune with the afterlife resulting in a positive outcome regardless.

Just my opinion.

I get it though, I mean, we don't want anyone killing themselves so the more bleak and sad the afterlife is depicted the better chance of stopping someone from killing themselves. In fact, that mind-set is primarily why I focus on the possibility of a suicide with a positive afterlife.
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Brian P
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #18 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 4:26pm
 
Bruce,

Thanks will read the chapter, as well as getting back on track with your book.

Brian
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Vicky
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #19 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 7:34pm
 
Hi Brian,

You PM'd me and here's my response.  It's very long, I get wordy, so I thought I'd just share it here on your thread....

Thanks for writing me.  Sorry to hear of your personal pain of losing contact with her and then finding out she'd died.  It's why I always say what I feel and express it, because we just never know when things will change.  Then we have so many unanswered questions.  That's what gets me the most.  I hate not knowing what I want to know. 

Do you have a sense of your own personal guidance?  You know, your higher self?  A lot of people refer to it as spirit guides but that doesn't seem to suit me.  I just use a general umbrella term of "Guidance" to refer to all that spiritual stuff. 

You should really enjoy Bruce's Guidebook and CDs.  I did a retrieval within the first week of having his book and I had only been reading it, wasn't even using the CDs yet then.  What I did was really set my intention on wanting to do a retrieval.  I told myself (my guidance) this was something I really wanted to do.  It was one of those burning-desire things.  Then one evening while I was making dinner and the kids were watching cartoons, I had a strong feeling come over me and felt/heard "go try to do a retrieval right now".  It was such a strong feeling I couldn't ignore it.  I had no idea yet what I was really doing, but I just followed Bruce's technique, sat there at my computer desk and did a retrieval even though I could hear the TV and hear my kids laughing at the cartoons.  It was that easy!

What I wanted to point out to you was that trying to do an OBE or AP isn't necessary.  If you're trying for that, you might create a block.  It's better to just follow the easy steps that Bruce has outlined and trust that whatever you experience and in whatever way you experience it will be ok.  Just trust whatever the process shows you.  What I find time and time again, though....and Bruce doesn't really like people to know this....is that the process usually does lead you to having a genuine OBE.  The reason he doesn't want people to focus on that is so that they don't focus on expecting an OBE and then end up disappointed if they don't have one.  But the truth is, the reason it can and usually does lead to a genuine OBE is because his technique very subtly guides your consciousness into an altered state and you don't even realize that it's happened.  In that altered state, your nonphysical senses of perception open up. 

So it's not that you need to try to "turn on" any special abilities or senses of perception.  That just happens automatically because of the altered state of consciousness you move into.  There are of course various altered states of consciousness we shift into all the time, but we are rarely ever aware any shift has taken place.  Even while normally awake in our normal everyday lives, we move in and out of these altered states of consciousness without realizing it.  So, certain states allow for easy use of our nonphysical senses of awareness that we all have.  These are not special abilities that only special gifted people are born with.  They are a natural part of us because we are conscious beings.  Our physical life awareness is only one small slice of the pie of the totality of our consciousness.  You might say that that one slice out of the whole is what we call physical reality.  You have all the other slices which are other realities, dimensions, and areas of consciousness. 

So you asked me about some insight on contacting guides when doing retrieval work.  It's a concept people make way too complicated because we try to first figure out who such a guide is and how we make contact with the guide, etc.  Those things don't matter and focusing on them will clog up the process.  All you need to do when you sit down to try a retrieval or contact is simply intend to have a guide to guide you.  Set your intention on being guided to do a retrieval, then do the deep breathing exercises until you are very relaxed.  Follow the other techniques Bruce outlines in the guidebook.  Use whatever parts he teaches you which will cause you to get into a relaxed state.  That's the purpose, to let go of your hold on your normal physical state of being.  You don't have to be sleeping, but if your body does go to sleep that's ok as long as you hold your mental awareness awake and focused.  Then, continue focusing on your intention.  If you really want a guide to guide you, then just pay attention to the next thing you notice coming into your mind.  Look for what you "see" in your mind's eye.  Listen, feel, or notice what comes over you.  You'll likely feel something like my foot itches.  Just ignore it.  Tell yourself, "Ok my foot itches, but I'm ignoring the impulse to scratch it because I'm focusing on doing a retrieval right now."  But the kind of thing to notice or feel is not physical, it's going to be an impression.  And usually it will be something so weird or barely noticeable that you'll think it doesn't mean anything. 

But whatever you notice, whatever it is, no matter how insignificant it is, act as if it's exactly what you are looking for.  Act as if it has shown up in direct response to your request.  To do that, just respond to it by acknowledging it and saying to yourself something like, "Ok, I notice that I just thought of flowers.  I wonder if that has to do with leading me into this retrieval."  Or if you "see" something in your mind's eye that looks like an impression of something, just go with it.  Pretend it is a sign.  Say to yourself something like, "Maybe that shape means something.  I want to see more.  What else is there?"  Whatever you choose to do about it, the point is to respond as if believing that's what you need.  Even if it makes no sense at all.  What is really taking place is that you are allowing your body to go into a light sleep state (although it's not necessary, but usually does happen) and your mental awareness continues with the same level of consciousness as normal waking consciousness.  This allows you to focus on your intention and still have use of your normal faculties of awareness.  As you allow yourself to move into the altered state of consciousness and your nonphysical senses of perception begin to open up, and you play along with whatever you perceive in your imagination, what happens is that a guide, helper, or your higher-self guidance is able to get through to answer your request.  We really do have the ability to communicate with these beings and parts of our higher consciousness but the trouble is we usually don't know how to perceive and receive the communication.  But by allowing a shift in your consciousness, you move into a state where such communication is made very easily.  Doing the pretending and following whatever you think you notice in your imagination is like following a trail of breadcrumbs.  That analogy is that if you're too afraid or full of doubt, you won't allow yourself to be led, and you'll hold yourself back in normal everyday consciousness where logic and analyzing and fear are the things which filter what we allow ourselves to experience. 

When you read Bruce's work, you'll see how he shows he did retrievals while sitting in a restaurant or driving his truck.  So please don't confuse what I'm saying to mean that an altered state of consciousness means you are sleeping and dreaming.  What I'm saying is that we all can naturally slip into a state of altered consciousness and NOT EVEN KNOW that anything different has happened.  You can be driving your car, walking, or whatever and not even realize a shift has taken place.  That's how subtle these shifts are.  Do you know that even something as mild as daydreaming is a type of very light sleep?  Daydreaming, or even closing your eyes for a few moments automatically slows down the brainwaves.  So you can see how easy it is to shift into altered states of consciousness without realizing it.  This is what meditation is all about.  This is why learning how to quiet the mind and just be and just feel are good techniques when learning to do consciousness work. 

Bruce has taught me time and time again that when wanting a helper or guide to help you, it's not about "seeing" anything.  All that really matters is the thought.  Just have the thought that a helper is there and then just talk to the helper as if one is there.  The tricky part in learning all of this is allowing yourself to play with the process.  That's why Bruce suggests doing a pretend visit and conversation in your mind.  Create a daydream in your mind where you're fantasizing that you're going to visit with your deceased friend.  Make up in your mind what the scene looks like.  Pretend that she shows up for the visit and sits down at the table (or whatever the scene is).  Daydream what you'd say, and as you make all of this up play it out in your mind like you're writing a scene in a movie.  You are making up everything that happens.  You are controlling and directing everything.  As you do, the same shift in consciousness is taking place as your body relaxes, as your breath slows, as your brainwaves slow.  All you are doing is keeping your mind awake while all of this is taking place.  All you're doing is using the framework of "daydreaming" as a means to hold your attention on your focus of intention as all of these other processes are happening.  You won't even notice that you have shifted into some altered state, however slight it may be, and as you play the daydream conversation in your imagination, what eventually happens is that the scene takes on a life of its own.  The friend in your imagination could start to do or say something before you have a chance to make up what you want to pretend her to say.  You'll find yourself thinking, "Wait a sec, why did that just happen?"  Don't question too much, just observe what's happening.  It will be necessary to continue pretending too, to help keep things moving along.  But pay attention to everything that happens.  When you're done with it, or when you notice you can't hold onto the state or daydream any longer, or if it seems to end, that's when you can go back to normal everyday thinking, analyzing, and logic.  You'll want to write down everything you did and noticed and felt.  Write it all down and then see what is there that you know you did not know about or make up.  Maybe in your daydream/imagination your friend said something that could be real information.  That's why Bruce suggests asking your helper guide to show you, tell you, or give you something in the experience to prove that this is real.  The real information can come in any form, but what happens is that it will be subtle too, seeming to play right into the daydream in your imagination.  You'll think you were just making it up, but there could be something that you realize you didn't think you made up.  Or it could be some information you have no normal way of knowing.  If you have a way of verifying the information with a friend or relative of the deceased person, they could verify it for you and it would be pretty remarkable evidence that you really did have genuine contact with the deceased person. 

I know that only using the imagination technique doesn't seem satisfying enough as proof of real contact, but as you continue practicing you will eventually have an experience which proves to you beyond any doubt that the experience was real.  For me it was when my perception opened to the point of OBE conscious awareness.  A lot of my psychic experiences are in that same kind of state of consciousness, so I'm used to the feeling of that kind of awareness.  When I have an experience in that state of awareness, I recognize the feeling of it and know it's genuine and isn't just made up.  I know for a fact that I cannot fake that kind of feeling or that kind of visual awareness and knowing.  You cannot fake knowing something that you have no normal way of knowing.  Any little bit of verification of real information that you can find will propel your trust and confidence in doing this kind of work. 

Vicky


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PauliEffectt
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #20 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 7:53pm
 
I'll add 2 cents, from my experience, if something itches, I can scratch back gently,
and still maintain the retrieval. Reason why I do so is that an itch disturbs me
more than the movement of actually scratching. I think gentle movements are
possible in altered states, specially if I'm lying down. Also, I've managed to make
a retrieval with my eyes open and sitting up, but that was an unusual event, pushed
on me from outside Helpers.

Vicky, If I by any chance add anything anywhere of value, you may use it for any
book you write.
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Vicky
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #21 - Aug 5th, 2012 at 8:27pm
 
Hey Pauli, thanks.  By the way, I have had to teach myself to ignore an itch or otherwise I'd never stop being distracted!   Smiley
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hawkeye
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #22 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 12:10am
 
You know what I think Brian...Your friend is just fine. Don't worry. Her existence is full of love. (and most likely, thats thanks to you)There is no judgment given out "over there". Just a period where you can reflect, grow from your actions, and move on. She didn't go to hell or any of those religious based fear implants. Shes just fine. In fact I will bet you shes extremely happy you cared so much about her you went looking for answers to help her.  That's love. Do her the honer of continuing asking, and searching.
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Brian P
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #23 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 6:01am
 
hawkeye,

little confused about how the afterlife can know what we are doing here on this plane of existance? do our emotions for someone cross over?

I do not know if she believed or not..
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #24 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 8:52am
 
Brian P wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 6:01am:
do our emotions for someone cross over?

I do not know if she believed or not..


They certainly do. It does not matter if you believe or not. It's about the feeling and the intention. Spirits in the afterlife can pick up our feelings very well if we think about them intensely enough. Bonds between loved ones can be very strong. But so can feelings of hate.

Anyway, emotions do cross over and are felt by those who they are meant for in the afterlife.
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hawkeye
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #25 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 5:02pm
 
Strange thing that whole "passing over" thought. And I know, I brought it up. But what is "over" may be really "here" also. Just on a slightly different leval. Why wouldn't our energies like emotion carry through to "there"? I think she feels (not like touch, but like an energy) your emotion. Your love and how you feel when you attach enough energy to that thought. I don't think she will necessarily hang around for, what we think, is a long time waiting to hear for you. That all said, when you love something, or someone, the energy is felt. She didn't need to believe in anything while she was here living in body. Didn't need to have some religious belief. Some learned feeling of hate or fear as most religions teach. Just needed to feel a little love when she was here. Or for that matter, a little love right now. I suggest you tell her, I mean really put it out `there`how much of an impact she has made upon your life. How grateful you are for having had the opportunity to spend some time with her. Then send her your love. Send that emotion of love you have in your heart for her. Then thank her again, and release her from any energy you may feel necessary, but may be holding her back. Let her go, and be happy for her. She knows real love now. You never know, some day down the road when its your turn to go over there, you might just run into her again. Only this time she may be sending you that love energy to help you open your hearts eyes and see the love possible. Good luck Brian. Know she loves you, just because you love her.
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #26 - Aug 6th, 2012 at 5:44pm
 
Brian P wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 6:01am:
...little confused about how the afterlife can know what we are doing here
on this plane of existance? do our emotions for someone cross over?

As this is a Moen/Monroe site I will mention the concept I-There (Monroe term)
and Disk (about the same thing, in Moen term).

The Disk/I-There is a kind of collection of several different (mostly previous?) lives.
Somehow those lives are connected to us in the physical. The Disk is also
connected to members of other Disks.

And with the risk of building a belief system, I think the theory is that our experiences
are constantly fed to our various Disks, so they know "everything".

Monroe explains some parts of it in his book Ultimate Journey.
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juditha
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #27 - Sep 10th, 2012 at 6:31pm
 
hi this is wat doris stokes medium says about suicide as she is asked the question,i beleive in her,to me shes a very genuine medium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjAwQBD6kGs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTxVF7H9Z2s&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCYHAzXdq0&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxybpGhYIsE&feature=relmfu

love and god bless  love juditha xxx
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #28 - Sep 10th, 2012 at 7:46pm
 
Both the Bible and astral adepts stress the afterlife principle that like attracts like.  The implications of this are tricky because "likemindedess" has many levels.  I knew an active church member who shot himself because he couldn't cope with the increasing pain of an inoperable malignant brain tumor.  His case seems analogous to the biblical example of King Saul who lay mortally wounded on a battle field and asked his armor bearer to thrust his sword through him.  When the respectful armor bearer refused, Saul fell on his own sword.  But Saul rightly reasoned that if he did not do so, his Philistine enemies would kill him and probably torture him to death. Though Saul made many serious mistakes in his life, his suicide is not treated as one of them!

Judas Iscariot committed suicide out of remorse when he saw that his betrayal of Jesus had not forced Jesus' hand to use his miraculous powers to extricate himself from his plight and become the political Messiah that Judas always hoped he would become.
Judas's remorse shows that he really loved Jesus and his suicide makes him more of a tragic figure than an evil one.   The Bible never claims that Judas was condemned to Hell and I doubt that he is trapped in a hell now.  That said, the Bible never actually condemns suicide!

Like attracts like on the basis of our core desires, but our unique complexes of core desires are hard to assess in terms of the postmortem destinination to which they draw us. In Dr. George Ritchie's NDE, he encounters an earthbound son who committed suicide and follows his grieving mother around shouting (but not being heard!): "I didn't know, Mom; I just didn't know!"  Suicides committed to escape life's challenges no doubt draw many to an interim state of profound remorse, where they must experience in detail  the impact of their actions on those who love them. For most, then, suicide  is wrong, but, I believe, the negative consequences are meant to be educational and remedial.   As Christian writer C. S. Lewis puts it, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside."  In other words, God does not trap us in a hell; we do--and we can leave if and when we are ready for spiritual transformation.  The Bible teachers that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

Don
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juditha
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Re: Suicides, where do they go?
Reply #29 - Sep 11th, 2012 at 2:28am
 
hi don i agree with everything you have written,ive always thought that judas loved jesus,he got took in by the sanhedrins lies and truly beleived he was helping jesus,even today people get took in by some smooth talking man or woman in high up places,like politicians,they tell the people a load of crap just to get there trust and then betray them soon as they reach office,so i can understand how judas got took in by there false promises,to gain his trust and betray him.

i beleive that god understands why we commit suicide and fran who runs our circle said she beleives that the soul comes here to learn,but sometimes the soul gets overloaded and cant take anymore and commits  suicide

love and god bless  love juditha
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