Conversation Board - Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma

recoverer

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 5027
Gender: male

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #15 - Mar 30^th, 2012 at 3:12pm

How about what the lady Doc sat next to was feeling?

Bardo wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Doc,
At 16, were you conceptualizing the disk, karma or other metaphysical reasons for your feeling of connection to this woman? I'm afraid my 16 y/o fantasies would have been limited to the other, more earthy aspects you alluded to. Those connections are very rare, at least for me.

Back to top

IP Logged

DocM

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #16 - Mar 30^th, 2012 at 3:24pm

Ok, yeah, so I was a healthy 16-year-old and had normal hormonal attractions, but she stared at me for a while, and then said she couldn't take it anymore, that she knew that we had met somewhere, but that was impossible because she was in her 30s and I was 16. Did I have an older brother? She told me, somewhat embarrassed that she felt a connection to me -as if she knew me all my life - and she was not trying to "pick me up," because we didn't exchange numbers and I would have done it in a heartbeat at that age.

No, there was some deeper connection here. It would have made a great ballad or country song, but I though it relevant after Justin's story.

M

Back to top

IP Logged

Just Me Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 151 Gender:	Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma Reply #17 - Mar 31^st, 2012 at 12:25am Ouch. My brain hurts. I'll be back after I think on all this. Thanks! mj
Back to top	IP Logged

Lights of Love

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 881

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #18 - Mar 31^st, 2012 at 3:00am

Hi MJ,

Karma is simply patterns, tendencies or inclinations that have developed because of our belief systems. Negative karma can be thought of as lessons not yet learned if the pattern or tendency to react in certain ways are painful. Each time we are faced with an event or interaction we have a opportunity to learn and grow. If the interaction is painful we are being offered the opportunity to heal this pain by eliminating the fear from which our negative images and beliefs arise. Whenever we carry negative images and beliefs about a particular set of circumstances we will likely experience them as painful. We may also interpret this as punishment, however, the consciousness system is much too efficient and balanced to use punishment. Rather it brings to us the precise lessons we need to encourage us to grow in ways that are more loving.

Forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, is a necessary part of this learning process because many times when we have a negative belief about something, its occurrence can bring self-judgment, which in turn can cause debilitating pain. The only reason we experience an event as punishment is because our belief system tells us it is punishment. Balancing karmic scales is not punishment. It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.

Each moment of our lives we are continually making choices between love and fear, even when we are not conscious of doing so. The choice for love is to allow our core essence to shine forth, to radiate out from within. If we can't make that choice in the moment, then the next choice for love is to accept our human condition as it is and to work through another learning, healing cycle to gain more self awareness. There are no judgments on which we choose. A life lesson or healing cycle is an honorable choice. Our choice to be here in this physical world is a choice to go through these learning cycles willingly. No old karma or karmic "dept" is forcing us to be here. Part of the human condition is that we are unable in our state of evolution to always choose to express our core essence. We don't know how to do that yet. We haven't yet learned perpetual love, but we are working on it and we all have hope for and desire self-improvement.

Kathy

Back to top

Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.

IP Logged

Rondele

Ex Member

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #19 - Mar 31^st, 2012 at 10:25am

<<It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.>>

Hi Kathy-

Is this a reference to linear reincarnation? And although that is a bit off thread, is that a belief to which you subscribe?

I don't remember ES saying anything about reincarnation, although his description of how the afterlife works certainly recognizes the reality of cause and effect.

R

Back to top

IP Logged

a channel

Ex Member

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #20 - Mar 31^st, 2012 at 11:47am

Your experience Matthew, doesn't sound at all silly.

DocM wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

Ok, yeah, so I was a healthy 16-year-old and had normal hormonal attractions, but she stared at me for a while, and then said she couldn't take it anymore, that she knew that we had met somewhere, but that was impossible because she was in her 30s and I was 16. Did I have an older brother? She told me, somewhat embarrassed that she felt a connection to me -as if she knew me all my life - and she was not trying to "pick me up," because we didn't exchange numbers and I would have done it in a heartbeat at that age.

No, there was some deeper connection here. It would have made a great ballad or country song, but I though it relevant after Justin's story.

M

RE: the part of your quote i highlighted, really does sound that way. More humorously though, for some reason when i read your posts, the song, "Mrs. Robinson" starts playing in my mind. Cheesy

More seriously (again), it's experiences like you described above that i had, which first made me really think about the reality of other lives, karma, etc. A few years before i had that dream i mentioned, i started wondering things like, "why do we experience at times, the strong emotional draws or repulsions to others, almost in an automatic way? Why is that we can live with someone for years, but not feel close to them, and yet meet a stranger and feel like we have known them for years, feel really close, etc?"

Other lives and karma, just made the most sense even then to explain these odd emotional experiences.

So yes, your experience doesn't sound at all silly to me, but it was the reaction of the woman to you which makes it most convincing. Not that i condone it, but other lives and deep "past" emotional connections, perhaps explains why some teachers and students end up together romantically or can't seem to stay apart despite all the back-lash, judgment, condemnation, etc, they receive from almost all those around them?

Those emotional ties can be pretty darn powerful, especially if you meet someone with whom you have been really close to many times--especially often in close lover type situations. Again, i don't condone it, but it does make it seem less overtly crazy, unethical, but a bit more understandable in some ways.

Back to top

IP Logged

Lights of Love

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 881

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #21 - Mar 31^st, 2012 at 12:26pm

rondele wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 10:25am:

<<It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.>>

Hi Kathy-

Is this a reference to linear reincarnation? And although that is a bit off thread, is that a belief to which you subscribe?

I don't remember ES saying anything about reincarnation, although his description of how the afterlife works certainly recognizes the reality of cause and effect.

R

Hi R,

No I'm not referring to reincarnation. I do, however, think we are born with certain qualities of consciousness that is the same as the soul's overall quality since we are never truly separated at the core of our being. We only believe in separation because of the rules/laws of the reality we call earth.

When we're born it is a new life without conscious memory of where we came from. I think it is the circumstances and interactions we go through during our lifetime, and our reactions to them that set up the patterns and tendancies that give us feedback. Painful feedback pretty much tells us change is needed. Positive feedback tells us we're on the right track. btw... it is not only us that receives the feedback, but the soul as well.

Kathy

Back to top

Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.

IP Logged

Pat E.

Full Member

Offline

Posts: 207
Northern California
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #22 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 1:19am

Frank DeMarco's TGU (The Guys Upstairs) and the rest of the folks on the other side he has communicated with have some wonderful, sophisticated and resonant (with me, anyway) explanations relating to all this. The connections are real and deep, but not reincarnation as we typically think of it. Frank's writings, both in his books and on his blog, have been pulling together so much I've read and thought about.

Back to top

IP Logged

Just Me

Full Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 151
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #23 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 3:59pm

Hi Bardo,

Thanks for your response. Your viewpoint makes sense especially in light of the face that many people can justify and/or rationalize their own choices (thereby excusing themselves) while condemning others for the same or similar behaviors. I eluded to this idea in one of my earlier posts regarding how a person is only "punished" by their own belief system of what is *right* or *wrong.*

Hi Justin,

Thanks for your response. I don't feel guilty about anything, but thanks for asking.

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your response. I think I lean more toward this idea versus a "standard" one-size-fits-all system of punishment and retribution. As a former child abuse advocate, I saw this quite a bit in the court systems. Each case, while sharing some similarities, had unique factors that caused the outcome to be different for the parties involved. It doesn't mean one is "right" and the other is "wrong," though, just representative of what punishments were appropriate individually versus collectively.

Hi Recoverer,

Thanks for your response. You bring up an interesting example. I am a sexual assault survivor. The man who attacked me was a minister with a wife and children and a church. Due to circumstances in my life, I was not able to effect any kind of support for the assault or consequently losing my job (he was my supervisor). For many years I felt hurt and afraid because I didn't experience the world in such a way that "bad behavior was punished." Everyone who had ever hurt me had basically been excused for their actions.

In something closer to home, my mother got angry with me about something and went into a rage. She picked up a dictionary that was on a nearby table and flung it at me. I ducked and the thick book hit my sister in the face. Somehow, she did not lose her eye, but she had a pretty hefty swollen, bruised eye for about six months. That night my father came home from work and saw my sister's face. He immediately went to find my mother and demanded to know what had happened to my sister's face. My mother, looked at him and very calmly said "I'm sorry. I was trying to hit *her* (they never called me by my name)" My father's anger dissipated almost instantly and he walked away. The lesson I learned from that exchange was that it was okay to hurt me and I wasn't important enough to defend and that is the life I've had with them all these years. Be that as it may, it is the message they gave various people in our lives so I was subjected to being hurt by countless people who knew my parents either didn't care or had "written me off."

Anyway, fast forward about 17 years from my assault and I found the minister's name and mugshot on the sexual offender list. I felt vindicated because at least three other girls had families that cared enough for them to speak up and get him punished through the legal system. By that point, I had learned to control my panic attacks. I had learned to not spend hours trying to plan a way to get home without having to encounter any males. I had released him in my heart and forgave him or, at least, some component of *him.* It took me much longer to forgive my mother for helping to cover it up because he was her friend. Nonetheless, I'm not sure if he feels he did anything wrong (or does a mentally ill sexual predator face the same "review" system as those who are just knowingly and willingly hateful and abusive in that way?) and does serving jail time somehow adjust whatever the review experience will be for him (versus someone who does such a thing and is never caught)? Would it be different if I had committed suicide as a result of what happened or my parents were shamed by society (as happens in various ways in cultures including in the supposedly "advanced" U.S.)? Or, is it some combination of all these factors representative of all the effects and residual effects for the first victim and every person and situation that has been altered as a course of that act upon him/her?

I will write more to everyone else in a bit. Thanks for the great discussion on all this.

Kind regards,
mj

Back to top

IP Logged

betson

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 3445
SE USA
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #24 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:50am

Hi,

Re: some forgiveness for others, the perpetrators who keep cruelty moving into perpetuity --
Don't forget that we could say that ALL predators are mentally ill (deficient) in some way, having probably been victims themselves. So they will receive some healing in the afterlife, according to our beliefs.

Re: our forgiveness for ourselves affecting our own karma, I think it does greatly because we are lessening the load we present to others, our 'dark cloud.' We are not burdening them. We are clearing our own energies by not blocking others'.

My background is quite similar to yours mjd and I don't know how you have cleared so much of your own burden so well. But you have. Do you think that your doing work focussed on the very problems you were facing (ex: as a sexual abuse advocate) helped to clear it? I look forward to your posts, particularly on this thread.

Bets

Back to top

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

IP Logged

Just Me

Full Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 151
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #25 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 9:15am

rondele wrote on Mar 30^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

Matthew-

I agree with you. The only thing I would add is that grace under certain circumstances can trump karma.

For example, if I have done things for which I later repent and fully understand that what I did was wrong and I seek forgiveness from those I harmed, it's possible.....not assured....that grace can come into play and wipe the karmic slate clean. If my character has changed and I am no longer the person I once was, I hardly think karma would be needed.

Whether karma is immutable or not depends, I think, on the individual and whether "payback" is the only way the person can fully understand what he did was wrong.

A loving parent would not insist that his child experience retribution for something the child did unless the child showed no contrition or understanding re. his transgressions.

I don't think a loving creator would be any less forgiving.

R

Hi Rondele,

Thanks for posting on this thread.
I have some questions for you.

1. Where are you suggesting "grace" comes from?

2. Why wouldn't a loving parent want their child to become self-respecting, law abiding contributing members of society? I'm not saying forcing restitution or retribution is the ONLY way to do this, but sometimes it is.

Loving parents do this all the time. There was a whole movement on it a few decades ago called "Tough Love."

3. Are you referring to a loving creator as in the God of the Bible or another loving creator?

And, if it's true we create our own reality (I don't know how I feel about that because I'm clearly an "over achiever" in jumping into way too many life lessons for one lifetime), then aren't we are own loving creators, as relative to the "Oneness," to some degree?

Kind regards,
mj

Back to top

IP Logged

Just Me

Full Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 151
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #26 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 9:16am

betson wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:50am:

Hi,

Re: some forgiveness for others, the perpetrators who keep cruelty moving into perpetuity --
Don't forget that we could say that ALL predators are mentally ill (deficient) in some way, having probably been victims themselves. So they will receive some healing in the afterlife, according to our beliefs.

Re: our forgiveness for ourselves affecting our own karma, I think it does greatly because we are lessening the load we present to others, our 'dark cloud.' We are not burdening them. We are clearing our own energies by not blocking others'.

My background is quite similar to yours mjd and I don't know how you have cleared so much of your own burden so well. But you have. Do you think that your doing work focussed on the very problems you were facing (ex: as a sexual abuse advocate) helped to clear it? I look forward to your posts, particularly on this thread.

Bets

Hi Bets,

Thanks for your post. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "clearing it"? in this context? I want to make sure I understand your question before attempting to reply.

Kind regards,
mj

Back to top

IP Logged

betson

Super Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 3445
SE USA
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #27 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:23pm

Hi mjd,

Sure -- Clearing as clearing up a cloud of pollution that can be carried within, residues of fear and anger etc from earlier traumas. Or if that doesn't work, then clearing the blockages, like blockages in a river, from trauma so that a flowing spirit can be cleared within us and for connecting with others.

(I take it you don't read the metaphysics books that liken us humans to other energy patterns

)

Your posts here are such a flow (of ideas, attitudes) out to others. You must be unblocked to be able to do that. I too am much more unblocked than I was before about six years ago when I learned of PUL from these good people at this site.

So my post had two parts, one dealing with the recently posted forgiveness of perpetrators and one dealing with the thread topic of forgiveness of self.

They seem like two distinct forms of forgiveness, since self-forgiveness is often for a sense of self-guilt coming from others' acts upon us. As in "I must have deserved that, but I don't know why." If we assume our own guilt from others' acts upon us we carry an extra burden/cloud/blockage, it seems to me.

Bets

Back to top

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

IP Logged

Just Me

Full Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 151
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #28 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 8:26pm

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 31^st, 2012 at 3:00am:

Hi MJ,

Karma is simply patterns, tendencies or inclinations that have developed because of our belief systems. Negative karma can be thought of as lessons not yet learned if the pattern or tendency to react in certain ways are painful. Each time we are faced with an event or interaction we have a opportunity to learn and grow. If the interaction is painful we are being offered the opportunity to heal this pain by eliminating the fear from which our negative images and beliefs arise. Whenever we carry negative images and beliefs about a particular set of circumstances we will likely experience them as painful. We may also interpret this as punishment, however, the consciousness system is much too efficient and balanced to use punishment. Rather it brings to us the precise lessons we need to encourage us to grow in ways that are more loving.

Forgiveness, especially self-forgiveness, is a necessary part of this learning process because many times when we have a negative belief about something, its occurrence can bring self-judgment, which in turn can cause debilitating pain. The only reason we experience an event as punishment is because our belief system tells us it is punishment. Balancing karmic scales is not punishment. It simply means learning what you have not yet learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.

Each moment of our lives we are continually making choices between love and fear, even when we are not conscious of doing so. The choice for love is to allow our core essence to shine forth, to radiate out from within. If we can't make that choice in the moment, then the next choice for love is to accept our human condition as it is and to work through another learning, healing cycle to gain more self awareness. There are no judgments on which we choose. A life lesson or healing cycle is an honorable choice. Our choice to be here in this physical world is a choice to go through these learning cycles willingly. No old karma or karmic "dept" is forcing us to be here. Part of the human condition is that we are unable in our state of evolution to always choose to express our core essence. We don't know how to do that yet. We haven't yet learned perpetual love, but we are working on it and we all have hope for and desire self-improvement.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

I apologize for missing your post. I was trying to walk and chew gum again. lol Seriously, I was scrolling through trying to make sure I acknowledged everybody and somehow zipped past your message. Please forgive me.

Thanks for your response. I am a bit confused by your explanation in that it doesn't seem to account for those of us who were born to abusive parents. I mean, I definitely viewed my childhood experience as quite negative although I do not harbor ill will or anger or hatred toward my parents. If anything, I would define it as sorrow that I was not good enough for them to love. On the other hand, while my sister is not treated as badly as I was, she is emotionally blackmailed quite a bit and tends to rationalize it away. Granted, she was not physically abused the way I was and she was not thrown out with nowhere to go, but she has been emotionally and verbally abused. So, are you saying she would not have "bad" karma simply because she interpreted her experience as not being negative? If so, then doesn't it follow that people who live in denial while overlooking bad things happening to their children or friends or the elderly are creating "good" karma because they simply refuse to interpret the situation at all, therefore it's not translated as a negative experience?

I am breaking up this point because that paragraph was getting long. Many years ago, before I became a parent, I was a fair with my husband. We were walking around going to various booths when I saw something strange to my side. I took a closer look and saw what appeared to be 4-5 teenage boys carrying what appeared to be a dead body. In my infinite inability to walk away from someone being hurt, I told my husband to stay there and watch them while I ran to find some help. I stopped a police officer who was walking with the park manager. I told them what we had seen and took them back to the place where the boys were moving the girl's body. A few minutes later paramedics arrived and began emergency medical intervention and she was conscious before being placed in the back of the ambulance. I have absolutely no doubt she was going to be seriously harmed that night and I felt that I was there at that time in that space and noticed that event and I could not bring myself to just walk away. I translated the event as positive in the sense that we probably prevented her from being gang-raped and/or killed that night. No doubt she was given something to render her helpless against being carried to the back of the courthouse. Again, using your explanation, the boys' karma would probably be negative as I'm sure they were questioned by the police, if not taken into custody. The girl's karma was probably positive in that she was told how close she came to being serious injured or killed that night. The park manager's karma was probably good because she immediately jumped into action when I demanded help and came to thank me for getting involved. I don't know that I had any karma from this event because I was just a bystander. But, if I had seen this event take place and ignored it, I also wouldn't have registered any karma because I didn't interpret it as negative.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I can try to ask my question again if it makes no sense. Wink

Kind regards,
mj

Back to top

IP Logged

Just Me

Full Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 151
Gender: female

Re: Self-Forgiveness relative to Karma
Reply #29 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 8:37pm

betson wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:23pm:

Hi mjd,

Sure -- Clearing as clearing up a cloud of pollution that can be carried within, residues of fear and anger etc from earlier traumas. Or if that doesn't work, then clearing the blockages, like blockages in a river, from trauma so that a flowing spirit can be cleared within us and for connecting with others.

(I take it you don't read the metaphysics books that liken us humans to other energy patterns

)

Your posts here are such a flow (of ideas, attitudes) out to others. You must be unblocked to be able to do that. I too am much more unblocked than I was before about six years ago when I learned of PUL from these good people at this site.

So my post had two parts, one dealing with the recently posted forgiveness of perpetrators and one dealing with the thread topic of forgiveness of self.

They seem like two distinct forms of forgiveness, since self-forgiveness is often for a sense of self-guilt coming from others' acts upon us. As in "I must have deserved that, but I don't know why." If we assume our own guilt from others' acts upon us we carry an extra burden/cloud/blockage, it seems to me.

Bets

Hi Bets,

Thanks for clarifying this for me. Yes, I read metaphysical books, but I wanted to make sure our meaning of "clearing" was basically the same. Wink

For one, I never experienced a bad situation or negative event and immediately felt like I deserved it or had done anything wrong. My panic disorder was strictly as physiological response in my body as my adrenaline glands started misfiring. I also was not in a position to rely on anyone else for support so I still had to force myself to function in the world (ie. go to work, grocery shopping, college, etc.). Admittedly, I did some of it very poorly and without really "living" during those days, but that was all I had in me at the time so I went through the motions to deal with things the best way I could.

However, I think central to anything I consciously did or did not do during that time, is that I always purposed in my mind that I would not allow someone else to take my self-respect or love for mankind. Yes, he could assault me. Yes, I've been beaten up more than I care to remember. Yes, I've had a gun held to my held. Yes, I've been unjustly fired, but...at the end of the day...the only thing nobody else can take away from me is my spirit. Nobody can make me become hateful or bitter or vengeful or otherwise "not loving toward all mankind."

I was thinking about your question on my drive home tonight and I thought I'd share something my mentor in college told me many moons ago. There was a very pretty woman standing with a man she was obviously in a romantic relationship with. Another man approaches the couple and tells them he is very attracted to the woman and wants to have sex with her. They are a bit shocked, but they did not walk away. The man offers them a million dollars for one night with the wife. They discuss it among themselves and she agrees to do it. The offeror then says that he wants to have sex with her, but he is only willing to pay a hundred dollars. Affronted, the woman exclaims "Hmph! What kind of woman do you think I am?!?!" to which the man replies "We've already established that. Now, we're just negotiating price." Grin

The moral of the story is there is no "offer" or "circumstance" so big that would allow me to sell my own heart. If I do, then my abusers have won and I refuse to allow that to happen. And, each time I stand up in defense of someone else or help someone get through a day of sorrow or pain, I am grateful for what I've survived because those experiences help me have empathy, compassion and patience for the "walking wounded." I didn't have that when I was the wounded one and I know just how important it is. If I can "stand in the gap" for just one other person, then my pain and suffering have not been in vain.

Kind regards,
mj

Back to top

IP Logged