On this thread I'd like to discuss how to find the depth of our being and ways to allow this part of us to come forth in our daily activities.  Once we tap into our internal depth of being, what we are flows and expresses itself more consciously.  Since this depth is such a natural part of us, I want to try to avoid using "psychic" terminology because I think too many buzz words exist that does more to create blocks rather than ease the way. Instead, think of this more as self-reflection from the inside out.

The depth of our being goes far beyond the astral or mental planes.  It is only from within yourself that you can glimpse what many call the soul or oversoul, which is actually you as the Consciousness Being that you are.  Many of us seem to identify with our thoughts and actions, which are actually the end products of the processes of our mind.  However, underlying these processes is a sea of feeling that is little known or recognized.  This background of feeling portrays itself as imagery much of the time.  The imagery itself is very similar to what one might see in the hypnagogic state between sleep and wakefulness.  The difference is this inner depth of feeling portrays our reactions to our self and others, as well as imaging forth our own inner tendencies.

The key is having a relaxed perception, which allows feeling to come forth and portray itself.  With a little practice, feeling can soon be recognized as the background accompaniment of all our perceptions, all our thoughts, all our actions. The relaxed perception of this internal background allows our feeling to clarify its own meanings and direction because it is the depth of our beingness, the greater "I" from which we exist.

Sometimes people think that they are making themselves feel whatever they want, however, that thinking comes from a lack of familiarity with the realm of feeling.  The "what we want" comes from the realm of feeling.  At best, a person exercising self-control tries to block certain tendencies in his or her inner feeling.  For example, the moment a disagreeable feeling arises, it is resisted or censored, only to arise again and again.

Since we are so thick-headed most of the time, our inner being uses very dramatic language in the form of imagery to get its point across.  For example, a couple days before my mother died I was sitting at my computer working when suddenly a "mini movie" appeared. The scene was of the backyard of the house we lived in when I was about 12 years old. My mother and I were sitting on the patio looking out over the garden, which was something we had done often. After a few moments my mom got up out of the patio chair and turned her back to me with her rear-end, clad in blue jeans. The dramatic, even playful or comical aspect of this image was that her rear-end was right in front of my face. The scene ended and I heard the words "Goodbye, I'm leaving." This scene had come out of the blue, yet I knew instantly that she was going to make her transition to the "non-physical" relatively soon even though she had been in good cheer and fairly good health.
 
Our inner being speaks to us clearly and effectively for the purpose of giving guidance in our everyday lives.  Learning to recognize this inner world and learn from it greatly benefits our spiritual growth toward becoming more loving and caring.

Kathy

Kathy,

Good topic!  The problem with psychobabble (unconscious, superconsious, shadow self, etc.) and New Age "soul" jargon (oversoul, Disk, soul fragment, etc.) is that its very familarity tends to cut us off from fresh insights.  I like what William James said after experimenting with nitrous oxide (laughing gas).  His experiments taught him that consciousness is divided into subtle thin layers, each perhaps with its own properties and potentials yet to be discovered.  Some the Bible's keys to spiritual growth are explicitly dependent on a ruthless honesty and subtle experiences that happen in "the inner parts," "the inner person," "the spirit" as opposed to "the mind," and inner "depths" as opposed to normal mental ruminations.  But the Bible, like William James, lacks a well developed metaphysic to faciliate the achevement of these crucial state, so subtler states must be achieved through meditative trial and error and better methods of verifiction and analysis of state-specific potentials.  A major reason why more Christians never achieve potent mystical states of consciousness is that they overlook the unsophisticated language of mental interiors that must be reached for such breakthroughs to occur.  I marvel at how, every once in a while, I find myself in a special mental zone in which I feel so much more self-aware than usual.  In this aone, I find my prayers far more effective.  More intriguingly, strangers seek my out and pour out their troubles when I'm in such a zone, in stark contrast to my normal experiences.  I long for more insight about how I drilft and out of this "zone" and how to return to it when I feel like I'm treading water with little progress over extensive periods of time.

Don

I don't consider terminology such as Disk, higher self, and oversoul to be psychobabble if it helps people communicate. Some people speak of such things because they have experienced them. Perhaps some people aren't able to have such "fresh insights" because they aren't open to them.

Perhaps a part of tuning into our inner divinity is being respectful towards others including people who have experienced things such as their disk and use such terminology not because they want to engage in psychobabble, but because they want to engage in a commonly understood way of communicating.

How about words such as God, Holy Spirit and Love? Can they be used or will they end up limiting us in some way?

Kathy:

I had some difficulty writing my first post because I felt as if I had to avoid certain words. Consider the word God. I can think of it without having all of the concepts that people have about it. I figure the same is possible for other words.  Since this is a Bruce Moen forum  I don't believe it is wrong to use a word such as Disk. When I think of "Disk" I don't limit myself about the meaning. If somebody is going to become aware of such a way of considering things some terminology needs to be used. In my case my introduction came with Robert Monroe's term "I-there." Not a dirty word as far a I'm concerned.

A part of my response was based on Berserk's past condemnation of viewpoints such as the disk viewpoint. I believe an open discussion about something can't be limited by somebody's aversion to considering certain possibilities.

Doesn't it seem odd that after being gone for a while Berserk decides to take part when the possibility of not using terminology he doesn't agree with is presented?

Kathy:

If people aren't going to be free to say what they think, then I will no longer take part on this thread.

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 3:54pm:

Lights of Love wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 12:58pm:


Kathy,

Great topic!  I understand what you're describing and I personally believe I really identify with it in my own experiences.  I wonder what you'd say of this or if you have any insight to add...In my life on different, completely separate occasions I've experienced three episodes that I can remember off the top of my head, where I received sudden awareness about another person who I hadn't met yet.  When these experiences take place, what I receive is mostly all feeling, but is accompanied then by a vision along with "knowings" or sometimes even hearing a message (from what I've called The Voice in my own personal experience). 

Then the whole experience is verified by something that happens in my life in the near future, something I couldn't have known or guessed or planned.  The feelings, the vision, and the message is all verified.  I've simply come to trust these feelings and messages.  I've had some messages where the feeling is that this event or outcome will happen several years into the future.  As of yet, one in particular for me hasn't come into being quite yet. 

So what is your opinion, just for the sake of conversation, that what I felt/foresaw is definite, or  probable.  Or are such things able to completely change and alter based on all the variables of thoughts, feelings, choices, and decisions in life between now and that future?  It's such a fascinating subject to me.  I tend to believe it's a little of both.  I believe there is a sort of "higher" meant-to-be which takes precedence over all the stupid little decisions and mistakes we make in our lives.  But at the same time, I also believe that our conscious thoughts, feelings, and actions are always creating, altering, and setting event lines into motion.  After all, we cannot just live our lives sitting on the couch without doing a thing because we believe that there's a set course of events which will run our lives no matter what we do! 

Anyway, from my own experience with this "future stuff" what I've noticed is that I first receive in the form of pure feeling with no logic or thought processes.  Then I notice my conscious mind reacting, such as what my logic thought response is or what my emotional response is.  Then a form of a message comes, usually in words, and lastly comes the vision.  The more I do my own conscious reaction or questioning or wondering, then it's followed up again with another wave of the pure feeling, then words, then vision.  There is so much information in that pure stream of feeling that I believe the messages and visions are just further simplifying what was already relayed in the feeling.

Anyway, this is an interesting thread you started.  I hope I'm not off topic in trying to utilize my own experiences to join the conversation, but I wonder if you have noticed the way you receive information, if it also comes in some kind of pattern of feeling, words, and vision, and how can I best learn to differentiate between actual receiving and actual interpretation or misinterpretation.  Personally, I've found that if I'm unsure about the meaning of something, it tends to crop up again and again making the same presentation.  I assume that's my inner being saying, "Hey, look, I've told you this many times.  It hasn't changed.  You just need to listen and pay attention!"  I can sometimes be very stubborn I suppose.  I find that just trusting, accepting, and being patient is the best way to go. 

I too want to utilize and cultivate this communication during normal daily life activity because I think we actually receive way much more than we recognize.  And I want to be more consciously aware of these types of glimpses or messages, whether they are exactly true or only mere probabilities.  It's simply fascinating, especially when I can see that I didn't do anything specifically to make it come true. 

By the way, above I mentioned knowing people before I meet them.  The same is true of events and objects in my life.  I can become aware or knowledgeable of things coming into my life before they do, even before I have the need to plan anything that has me being a part of making it happen. 

Vicky

Kathy,

You have hit on a very interesting and profound concept - one of which I have thought a lot about - that is that our innermost state is more based on feeling, and less on pure rationality.  As such, emotions can be our guide to any situation, and as you said containing emotion may work in the physical plane, but may not help us be in touch with our innermost core.

The foundation of our innermost being is fueled by God's love which is the root source for all of us.  Yet it only comes through to the degree that we are in touch with the source.  It is interesting that Swedenborg notes that all angels (people in spirit) are astounded when they hear that people seek praise or notice for their good actions.  To the departed who know of God, they see all love/good as coming from him as the fountain or source, and they merely are the conduits for this universal force.  To take personal credit therefore for a good deed becomes an exercise in personal ego stroking, and misses the point of our being this conduit for God's love instead of the separate source of the good action.

Swedenborg felt strongly that each man/woman had their own innermost love, and that at the second stage of death, the soul was bound to follow this love without reservation or care about what others think.  I tend to think that at this level of consciousness, the emotions rule and the rational mind is more secondary.  We are, after a stay in the afterlife stripped down to our purest essence of what we love.  We no longer hide our secrets, and we "go for it" in terms of following our passion.

Thus, strangely enough, some consign themselves to a hellish plane, if they seek out sadistic or masochistic loves.  Others will help or serve others.

One of the more interesting questions that we've brought up on this board is whether or not one can change one's innermost love?  ES thought not, but was vague about it.  I feel that if we use discipline to follow the path of love and service to others while alive we may break the bonds of pure ego serving or self serving loves, and be open to a more pure, general love for others. 


Great thread
Matthew

Hi Vicky,

Oh no, you are not off topic at all.  Your post as well as Don's, Matthew's and Juditha's is exactly the kind of conversation I was hoping for when I decided to start this thread.  Only problem is that I've gotten kind of busy for the next few days so my posts will be slower in coming than what I'd like.

Personally I've found that future probabilities are changeable for all the reasons you've mentioned, but especially because of the choices we and other people make.  Whenever I foresee what I believe to be a possible future event I try to pay close attention if there's some sort of danger or other people involved.  Sometimes the event plays out, and the outcome I originally saw is changed to a different one.  Other times nothing comes of it, but I don't doubt the information I'd received.  I just assume it's valid whether it is or not especially if it may have an effect on someone. 

For example, a while back I had a vision of a car sliding on ice out in front of my truck and me crashing into it at a certain intersection I pass by on a regular basis. On that occasion I was able to avoid a collision, so that one actually played out with a different ending as I'd slowed way down when approaching that intersection.  However, a lot could have occurred that could have thrown the timing off and the event could have never happened.  Either one of us could have easily been delayed for one reason or another and the probability would have vanished. 

I've received information in lots of ways, visions, hearing words or sometimes a couple of sentences, sometimes I'll simply know or feel something. I've also had physical sensations especially when someone's had the intent to harm.  Seeing as well as feeling aura's has also been a wonderful tool that helped to focus my consciousness on the matter at hand, both in counseling and laying hands.  However, I haven't ever noticed any patterns to speak of except with the feeling/imagery I described above and that's probably only because I've been so fascinated with it. Over the years some of the various ways I've received information has been more in the forefront than at other times. 

For example, I no longer see auras as well as I did before I retired.  Most likely because it's not something that is as useful to me now as it had been previously.  I think the form information comes in, or the tool that is used to help focus consciousness doesn't really matter so much as what is useful to you at the time.  You can even make up your own tools if you want to.  I think interpretation just takes practice.  There have been many times when I've been unable to interpret things, especially imagery, but I've gotten better at it the past couple of years and that's mostly because it's something I've practiced.

To me the most important focus is to be more loving, caring and compassionate towards others and if we are, then all of these other things fall into place naturally to help us be even more loving, caring and compassionate. And Vicky, your love and caring is clearly evident to me and so many others, so I think you're doing just fine. One thing I see in myself with some of my interpretations of this feeling/imagery is that there's plenty of room for improvement. That's probably always going to be a given.  I'm working on it though.

Kathy

One issue I will address in detail when I have more time is the issue of meditation as "spiritual ascent" versus "experiencing inner depths."   Spiritual ascent has a long and rich heritage in Catholic mystical tradition.  It takes as its starting point spiritual "ecstasy," which derives from a Greek work "ekstasis," meaning "standing outside oneself."  In a more vernacular vein, many speak of their spirit "soaring" or of "raising their vibrations."  Of course, directional talk is not meant to be literal, but I've been trying to categorize some of my most meaningful mystical experiences in terms of one of these two polarities.  What do you think the proper distinction is, if any, between spiritual ascent (ecstasy) versus experiencing "inner depths?"

Hi Matthew,

I'm really glad you brought ES into our conversation.  One of these days I need to read through my notes on him again.  I've been looking for Van Dusen's book "In the Presence of Other Worlds" (I think that's the title) but I must have loaned it to someone who hasn't returned it. 

Anyway, I may have read it and it just didn't sink in, but I didn't realize ES thought one cannot change their innermost love.  I guess that doesn't make a lot of sense to me because my feeling is that the purpose for us being here is to change the quality of our consciousness toward that which is more loving while utilizing the "hard knocks" of earth school and this in turn would somehow change our inner being and/or the inner being of the soul as well as the whole of consciousness.  I think growth probably is a super slow process and maybe there's not all that much gained during a particular lifetime, still I don't know of any other purpose for our existence here.

I suppose it could be there are people that experience growth at different rates with some gaining quality, others staying about the same, others losing quality, but I wonder how much any of these would actually affect the soul if you consider an individual as a teeny tiny bit of the soul's total accumulated consciousness?  Perhaps ES felt that way because one individual lifetime doesn't necessarily have that much impact, but that it is the gains in spiritual growth an individual makes as he/she progresses that accumulates for the soul.

I know I'm just rambling here.  It is an interesting question to ponder.

Kathy

Hi Kathy-

What a great thread!  First thing I did was to review Van Dusen's book The Presence of Other Worlds.  Still going over it and the more I re-read, the more I see a close relationship between your posts and what ES wrote.

As Van Dusen writes, "although ES' works look intellectual, they are colored everywhere by feeling."

Re. Matthew's post about what ES calls our root or ruling love, it is still a bit unclear to me whether that eternal love can be changed during our lifetime.

ES does say that only choices made in freedom really affect the individual's eternal nature and destiny.  However, in other places he seems to be saying that our eternal nature is sort of like our DNA in that we are what we are. 

"Everything about us comes from the primary tendency of our life.....if we are good we make our heaven according to it and if we are bad we make our hell according to it.  It is our basic motivation, our personality, and our character, since it is the reality of our life.  It cannot be changed after death because it is our essential self."  Heavenly Doctrine 57.

It's confusing because elsewhere ES talks about the conflict or struggle that we have between our higher "internal" self and lower "external" self.  He says the struggle is necessary so that a person can decide his own values, thereby shaping his ultimate or eternal existence. (pg 125).  He says that each person is a recipient of both good and evil and has a choice.  The lifetime of choices determines his or her fate here and in the worlds beyond. (pg 98).

So from that it would seem that we can change our eternal nature at least while we are physically alive and consciously set out to do so.

Sorry for going off on an ES tangent but Van Dusen's book is like a goldmine and so much of it corresponds to your original post.

Btw, ES makes it clear that having good thoughts and good intentions don't really cut it unless those are translated into concrete actions that serve others.  Another way of looking at it is how so many of the new agers talk about how they "send" PUL to others thinking apparently that it is a good and worthwhile thing in and by itself.

I think, however, that ES would say that unless the PUL is activated by turning off the computer and going out into the world and helping others in various ways, it doesn't amount to all that much.  As the Bible says "faith without works is nothing."

R
ps- Kathy, you also motivated me to order the latest book on ES- The Hidden Levels of the Mind: Swedenborg's Theory of Consciousness by Douglas Taylor. (see what you started?) 

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 2:29pm:


Absolutely I'm interested in hearing more to see what experiences I've had that might relate to Spiritual ascent. At the moment I can think of a few in which physical sensations were different so that may be one distinction.

K

Bets-

You might want to re-read what I wrote.  No one is refuting PUL.  And certainly the biblical reference I used does not refute it either.

My point is that PUL is easily confused as an emotion of some sort instead of what it really is...a State of Being.  As such, it can't be "sent" from one person to another.  It's not a commodity.

Emotions come and go and therefore by definition cannot be unconditional.  However, genuine PUL is eternal and underpins our entire existence.  Without it, we would not exist.

So, ES' point is that is we need to roll up our sleeves and manifest our beliefs into action.  Loving each other is a worthy goal but essentially empty if we don't translate that love into serving others.

R

The Bible speaks of baptism in the Holy Spirit and in Greek the term "baptism" means "immersion" (hence, the implicit meaning "immersion in the Spirit").  Immersion as a spiritual experience seems closely related to the concept of submerging in the depths of divine presence.  With that in mind, let me highlight the feeling tone of the most potent spiritual experience I ever had (as a disillusioned young skeptic at age 16). 

I was attending a week long Pentcostal camp meeting at Pelican Lake, Manitoba.  I wanted a self-authenticating spiritual experience, but was determined not to succumb to wishful thinking or emotionalism.  Night after night, I knelt stone-faced and unfeeling at the front altar during prayer time after the worship services in a large amphitheatre.  I experienced ever increasing cynicism and bitterness at the prospect of any alleged experience of divine presence.  Then came the Tuesday that was the most magical and life-changing day of my life.

In the afternoon, I went on a long walk of about 12 miles in the beautiful countryside outside the camp grounds.  I expected to return an avowed agnostic.   I promised God that if He existed and if he would make Himself real to me that day, I would surrender my life to Him.  I chilidishly imagined having to be a martyr for my faith in some Muslim country.  When I returned, I was more skeptical than when I began my long walk.  I decided I would give God one last chance--at the altar after the evening service.  To show how much I meant business, I did something I had never done before.  I was famished, but I decided to fast and put the money I would have spent on dinner in the offering plate.  After the service, I went forward to pray--and felt nothing and wondered how long I would bother to stay.  Soon the building was almost empty and my fists were clenched in a defiant refusal to release self-control and give way to wishful thinking.  Then it happened!

Suddenly and unexpectedly, I felt a warm breeze that was not of this world.  This was followed by wave after wave of liquid love that intensified with each wave.  I can only describe this as a hundred times more intense an experience of Pure Unconditional Love than I have ever experienced before or since.  And ohm, the sweetness!  I was forced against my will to speak in tongues at the top of my voice.  I was possessed!  Soon the waves became so intense I thought they might kill me; so I was inclined to leave, yet I didn't.  In retrospect, these love waves seemed like a vortex taking me on a descent to a deep level of my being where God is present.  In fact, I reached a  point where I seemed in direct contact with a Wholly Other divine mind so powerful and magnetic that I felt terror that my puny mind was on the verge of being totally absorbed in God, so that I would cease to be.  This gave new meaning to the biblical principle, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." 

People gathered in the amphitheatre and watched in awe.  Their presence made me feel a  tad self-conscious and I would later ask a lady why she was there.   She replied, 'Don't you know?  It's dark in here and your face is radiant."  A Lutheran minister interrupted me with these comments: "I'm not into speaking in tongues or ecstatic experiences at all, but i sense that you are experiencing something absolutely unique.  Would you mind praying for me?"  At that moment, I can only say that if he were blind, I have no doubt he would have been healed.  I simply touched his forehead gently, and it seemed like I had electricuted him!  He exploded in other tongues and quickly soared in high ecstasy.

Afterwards, I realized that a roll of thought was unraveling in my mind that God had implanted.  It said: "My son, you desperately want answers.  But answers are not good for you right now.  They will give you a headtrip religion instead of the heart religion I want to develop in you.  So live your questions continually and they will eventually lead you to the center of my heart."  That night totally changed my intellectual capacity and caused me to embark on a long journey (Princeton Seminary [MDiv]; Harvard doctorate) in Biblical studies, religion professor, pastor) that brought me to where I am now.  That night also marked the begining of countless psychic and spiritual experiences, though, curiously, it was the last time I ever spoke in tongues.



   

Bets

Maybe PUL is a force field

no 'work" of sending anything out

we are all interconnected anyway, why send out?

as for "works"
well,
"They also serve who only stand and wait"

Hi Lucy and Bets,

Glad you both have joined in the conversation!

I think it's really just a matter of semantics.  We all use different words to describe basically the same thing that infers the same or similar meaning.  Force field, light, energy, inner vision, inner being, etc. are all metaphors that help us to communicate our experiences to each other. 

They're also tools that help us focus our conscious intent.  In the prayer group I participate in I've said things like, "I'm sending or surrounding a person with love, light and healing energy." as a way to communicate my intent of a loving, caring action I'm taking to try to help another.  I don't think we need to get hung up on semantics or the metaphors we use, especially if they're helpful to us on an individual basis.

Kathy

Don, every time I read your account of your powerful and very dramatic experience it sends chills down my back.  I love hearing about people's life changing events.  I've had a few of my own.  Like yours, they were extremely powerful and dramatic experiences that sent me reeling in a life changing direction, even though in content they were different from yours. 

This is probably at least one of the experiences you're trying to distinguish between inner depth experiences and Spiritual ascent you mentioned previously.  I'd like to know a lot more about the Catholic mystical tradition and hope you will be able to find the time to go into more detail.

Based on your description of Spiritual ascent, that's probably where I'd categorize your experience and some of mine, if they truly can be classified.  Similar to some of my experiences, it was something that, 1) had an effect on your physical state of being in a very profound way. 2) You were "ripe" for this significant, life changing direction. 3)  The "cause" came from something perceived as outside of you as though the Holy Spirit descended upon you. 4) You were essentially "taken" to your inner depth of being, God within.  5) You recognized your "smallness" in a very humbling and awesome way.  There may be other similarities.  This is all I can think of at the moment, plus even though I'd love to sit here and ponder this longer, I need to get my attention focused elsewhere. 

Thanks for bringing this up!

Kathy