One issue I will address in detail when I have more time is the issue of meditation as "spiritual ascent" versus "experiencing inner depths."   Spiritual ascent has a long and rich heritage in Catholic mystical tradition.  It takes as its starting point spiritual "ecstasy," which derives from a Greek work "ekstasis," meaning "standing outside oneself."  In a more vernacular vein, many speak of their spirit "soaring" or of "raising their vibrations."  Of course, directional talk is not meant to be literal, but I've been trying to categorize some of my most meaningful mystical experiences in terms of one of these two polarities.  What do you think the proper distinction is, if any, between spiritual ascent (ecstasy) versus experiencing "inner depths?"

Hi Matthew,

I'm really glad you brought ES into our conversation.  One of these days I need to read through my notes on him again.  I've been looking for Van Dusen's book "In the Presence of Other Worlds" (I think that's the title) but I must have loaned it to someone who hasn't returned it. 

Anyway, I may have read it and it just didn't sink in, but I didn't realize ES thought one cannot change their innermost love.  I guess that doesn't make a lot of sense to me because my feeling is that the purpose for us being here is to change the quality of our consciousness toward that which is more loving while utilizing the "hard knocks" of earth school and this in turn would somehow change our inner being and/or the inner being of the soul as well as the whole of consciousness.  I think growth probably is a super slow process and maybe there's not all that much gained during a particular lifetime, still I don't know of any other purpose for our existence here.

I suppose it could be there are people that experience growth at different rates with some gaining quality, others staying about the same, others losing quality, but I wonder how much any of these would actually affect the soul if you consider an individual as a teeny tiny bit of the soul's total accumulated consciousness?  Perhaps ES felt that way because one individual lifetime doesn't necessarily have that much impact, but that it is the gains in spiritual growth an individual makes as he/she progresses that accumulates for the soul.

I know I'm just rambling here.  It is an interesting question to ponder.

Kathy

Hi Kathy-

What a great thread!  First thing I did was to review Van Dusen's book The Presence of Other Worlds.  Still going over it and the more I re-read, the more I see a close relationship between your posts and what ES wrote.

As Van Dusen writes, "although ES' works look intellectual, they are colored everywhere by feeling."

Re. Matthew's post about what ES calls our root or ruling love, it is still a bit unclear to me whether that eternal love can be changed during our lifetime.

ES does say that only choices made in freedom really affect the individual's eternal nature and destiny.  However, in other places he seems to be saying that our eternal nature is sort of like our DNA in that we are what we are. 

"Everything about us comes from the primary tendency of our life.....if we are good we make our heaven according to it and if we are bad we make our hell according to it.  It is our basic motivation, our personality, and our character, since it is the reality of our life.  It cannot be changed after death because it is our essential self."  Heavenly Doctrine 57.

It's confusing because elsewhere ES talks about the conflict or struggle that we have between our higher "internal" self and lower "external" self.  He says the struggle is necessary so that a person can decide his own values, thereby shaping his ultimate or eternal existence. (pg 125).  He says that each person is a recipient of both good and evil and has a choice.  The lifetime of choices determines his or her fate here and in the worlds beyond. (pg 98).

So from that it would seem that we can change our eternal nature at least while we are physically alive and consciously set out to do so.

Sorry for going off on an ES tangent but Van Dusen's book is like a goldmine and so much of it corresponds to your original post.

Btw, ES makes it clear that having good thoughts and good intentions don't really cut it unless those are translated into concrete actions that serve others.  Another way of looking at it is how so many of the new agers talk about how they "send" PUL to others thinking apparently that it is a good and worthwhile thing in and by itself.

I think, however, that ES would say that unless the PUL is activated by turning off the computer and going out into the world and helping others in various ways, it doesn't amount to all that much.  As the Bible says "faith without works is nothing."

R
ps- Kathy, you also motivated me to order the latest book on ES- The Hidden Levels of the Mind: Swedenborg's Theory of Consciousness by Douglas Taylor. (see what you started?) 

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 2:29pm:


Absolutely I'm interested in hearing more to see what experiences I've had that might relate to Spiritual ascent. At the moment I can think of a few in which physical sensations were different so that may be one distinction.

K

Bets-

You might want to re-read what I wrote.  No one is refuting PUL.  And certainly the biblical reference I used does not refute it either.

My point is that PUL is easily confused as an emotion of some sort instead of what it really is...a State of Being.  As such, it can't be "sent" from one person to another.  It's not a commodity.

Emotions come and go and therefore by definition cannot be unconditional.  However, genuine PUL is eternal and underpins our entire existence.  Without it, we would not exist.

So, ES' point is that is we need to roll up our sleeves and manifest our beliefs into action.  Loving each other is a worthy goal but essentially empty if we don't translate that love into serving others.

R

The Bible speaks of baptism in the Holy Spirit and in Greek the term "baptism" means "immersion" (hence, the implicit meaning "immersion in the Spirit").  Immersion as a spiritual experience seems closely related to the concept of submerging in the depths of divine presence.  With that in mind, let me highlight the feeling tone of the most potent spiritual experience I ever had (as a disillusioned young skeptic at age 16). 

I was attending a week long Pentcostal camp meeting at Pelican Lake, Manitoba.  I wanted a self-authenticating spiritual experience, but was determined not to succumb to wishful thinking or emotionalism.  Night after night, I knelt stone-faced and unfeeling at the front altar during prayer time after the worship services in a large amphitheatre.  I experienced ever increasing cynicism and bitterness at the prospect of any alleged experience of divine presence.  Then came the Tuesday that was the most magical and life-changing day of my life.

In the afternoon, I went on a long walk of about 12 miles in the beautiful countryside outside the camp grounds.  I expected to return an avowed agnostic.   I promised God that if He existed and if he would make Himself real to me that day, I would surrender my life to Him.  I chilidishly imagined having to be a martyr for my faith in some Muslim country.  When I returned, I was more skeptical than when I began my long walk.  I decided I would give God one last chance--at the altar after the evening service.  To show how much I meant business, I did something I had never done before.  I was famished, but I decided to fast and put the money I would have spent on dinner in the offering plate.  After the service, I went forward to pray--and felt nothing and wondered how long I would bother to stay.  Soon the building was almost empty and my fists were clenched in a defiant refusal to release self-control and give way to wishful thinking.  Then it happened!

Suddenly and unexpectedly, I felt a warm breeze that was not of this world.  This was followed by wave after wave of liquid love that intensified with each wave.  I can only describe this as a hundred times more intense an experience of Pure Unconditional Love than I have ever experienced before or since.  And ohm, the sweetness!  I was forced against my will to speak in tongues at the top of my voice.  I was possessed!  Soon the waves became so intense I thought they might kill me; so I was inclined to leave, yet I didn't.  In retrospect, these love waves seemed like a vortex taking me on a descent to a deep level of my being where God is present.  In fact, I reached a  point where I seemed in direct contact with a Wholly Other divine mind so powerful and magnetic that I felt terror that my puny mind was on the verge of being totally absorbed in God, so that I would cease to be.  This gave new meaning to the biblical principle, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." 

People gathered in the amphitheatre and watched in awe.  Their presence made me feel a  tad self-conscious and I would later ask a lady why she was there.   She replied, 'Don't you know?  It's dark in here and your face is radiant."  A Lutheran minister interrupted me with these comments: "I'm not into speaking in tongues or ecstatic experiences at all, but i sense that you are experiencing something absolutely unique.  Would you mind praying for me?"  At that moment, I can only say that if he were blind, I have no doubt he would have been healed.  I simply touched his forehead gently, and it seemed like I had electricuted him!  He exploded in other tongues and quickly soared in high ecstasy.

Afterwards, I realized that a roll of thought was unraveling in my mind that God had implanted.  It said: "My son, you desperately want answers.  But answers are not good for you right now.  They will give you a headtrip religion instead of the heart religion I want to develop in you.  So live your questions continually and they will eventually lead you to the center of my heart."  That night totally changed my intellectual capacity and caused me to embark on a long journey (Princeton Seminary [MDiv]; Harvard doctorate) in Biblical studies, religion professor, pastor) that brought me to where I am now.  That night also marked the begining of countless psychic and spiritual experiences, though, curiously, it was the last time I ever spoke in tongues.



   

Bets

Maybe PUL is a force field

no 'work" of sending anything out

we are all interconnected anyway, why send out?

as for "works"
well,
"They also serve who only stand and wait"