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How can mind and body be separate? (Read 3947 times)
Focus27
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How can mind and body be separate?
Dec 20th, 2011 at 11:53pm
 
How can mind and body be separate when they are scientifically proven to be directly linked together?

Proving a separation of mind and body can only scientifically be proven as a fact if you can somehow destroy the body yet prove the mind still exists. (I.E. Spiritual Mediums.)

If I took a brutal mass chainsaw murderer and surgically and drug induced (prophynol) and manage to remove all memory of killing and the end result person is not only a good person but is appalled at what they later find out they had done. Is this scientifically modified person:

1. Still held accountable for the sins committed?

2. A new soul?

3. The same soul with a damaged psychical brain and upon death they will... change?

I just find it very hard to believe mind and body are separate. I have done a lot of meditation, which causes hallucinations. It's in fact very easy to meditate long enough and utilize bin aural beats to initiate closed eye visions and hallucinations.

It can be fun to pretend and all, but in the end, only the truth matters.... or perhaps nothing matters at all!
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crossbow
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #1 - Dec 21st, 2011 at 1:47am
 
One can separate brain and mind by consciously leaving the body. It has to be fully conscious, not dream like, not just observed and recollected like a dream of leaving the body.

And it has to have physical life associations/connections.

One has to get well disengaged so that the body is clearly seen to be different to oneself. Also going in and out so that the sensations of extracting from and immersing into the body are experienced/known.

When the brain is reasonably healthy the mind and consciousness can go in and out and carry with it all memories of experiences either way. When brain is damaged or unhealthy it may not be able to receive/download information coming in with the immersing consciousness/mind.

Not all the consciousness is in the brain anyway, and when we go out via the crown centre we reunite with more of the consciousness that is upside of it. If brain is damaged, even less consciousness is in it, until when it is so damaged it has no consciousness in it. Only going out through crown unites the upper and lower consciousness. Going out through head/front is much the same as normal wakefulness; going out through solar plexus has awareness and memory at best, but no self initiative.

There are many books on it. Read and practice.

Also, what is not in the books:

Practice honesty, seeing things as they are. Pure awareness and observation and conscious control of self at all times. This clears the mind, makes it transparent, and intensifies the awareness. You must comprehend truth and value truth above all other values and this will enable you to see honestly as things are, otherwise your trying will be in vain because you preferences will cloud the mind and overlay all you see. When mind is clear and honest and consciousness is heightened and always present and in control, then when you lie down to go to sleep the heightened trained consciousness has more ability to go in and out of body - by head and solar plexus, and maybe crown.

If it goes by solar plexus it cannot control or exercise the intellect while outside, only observe and recall at best.

If by head it direct and control similarly to when in body.

When out via crown it has further abilities.

As well as conscious awareness, also practice responsibility and most importantly accountability for yourself. These heighten consciousness. Don't get obsessed by rights and opportunities and shun accountability like so many certain people do because this attitude will close off your exits and prevent going out of body. Desire accountability.   

Exercise heart, like love, forgiveness, thankfulness; and conscience; and live, speak, act, do according to own highest best standard by others. Dont just keep it up there and not do it - live it out. This downflow of energy from own inner upper best standard to normal living makes a pathway from crown to the place from where normal daily consciousness sits and operates, so now it can have a pathway to go upward and out via crown and to come back in again without a break in consciousness.         

Live this way and in time you will have the proof and the answers to the questions you seek. Until then you can only summise and guess.

But life will get better anyway and you may realise other priorities than wasting time with astral travel. Dont neglect physical life duties, right attitudes, and attending to surrounding human relationships, be up with these things in your life, or leaving the body wont happen, except by unhealthy means and unpleasant results. Know your motive - it must benefit more than just yourself, or it wont happen, except by eventual trouble to you. Also if you want to be proficient avoid mind altering drugs and alcohol. Get up to no mischief for the comeback is more severe than it is for earth bound mischief.
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Bruce Moen
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2012 at 4:15pm
 
Focus 27,

Focus27 wrote on Dec 20th, 2011 at 11:53pm:
How can mind and body be separate when they are scientifically proven to be directly linked together?

Proving a separation of mind and body can only scientifically be proven as a fact if you can somehow destroy the body yet prove the mind still exists. (I.E. Spiritual Mediums.)


There is scientific proof that a radio receiver's output can be directly linked to the signal fed to a radio transmitter.  You are assuming that the mind (the signal) resides in the body, making them inseparable.  And you are right, we can only prove the signal still exists if we kill the radio receiver and find another way to link to the original signal.

Personally, I believe that waiting on and relying on attempts at "scientific proof" of things metaphysical is a horrendous waste of time that is most often doomed to failure.  The Remote Staring Experiments by Drs Schlitz and Wiseman  ( in the story at this link http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/relg-sci.html ) demonstrate that the scientist's beliefs can somehow skew the results of scientifically controlled experiments to conform to the beliefs of the scientist running the experiment.  This renders the Scientific Method useless as a tool of testing and metaphysical hypothesis.

If we can't rely on scientists to answer questions like yours where can expect to find answes?  Must we rely on spiritual mediums?  Personally, I find a good medium can be helpful for some things.  But to truly find answers to these kinds of questions we have only one option, our own direct experience.  I could never allow myself to completely trust anyone else's perceptions or opinions.  For the first several years I explored for answers I could not even allow myself to trust and accept my own direct experience and perceptions. 

It took years before I discovered there was a way to independently verify my own metaphysical experiences.  Through learning to make contact and communicate with the deceased, people who no longer have physical bodies, and finding ways to verify the information they gave me, I began to suspect what I was perceiving was real.  And, that began a long series of experiences that removed all doubt.  It led to finding ways to cross verify information through partnered exploring sessions.

Focus27 wrote on Dec 20th, 2011 at 11:53pm:
If I took a brutal mass chainsaw murderer and surgically and drug induced (prophynol) and manage to remove all memory of killing . . .

Again, your basic assumption is that the origin of the "signal" is within the physical body.  You can smash, crush, chop up, destroy and incinerate the radio receiver in any way you like, but if the source of the signal is outside the radio you have had no effect on the signal's source.  At best you have a lobotomized person, chemically or otherwise, with not enough functional brain matter to be an adequate signal receiver.  But you've had no effect on the "mind" mass murderer.

Focus27 wrote on Dec 20th, 2011 at 11:53pm:
I have done a lot of meditation, which causes hallucinations. It's in fact very easy to meditate long enough and utilize bin aural beats to initiate closed eye visions and hallucinations.

Assumptions, assumptions . . .

The trick with hallucinations is to find ways to test whether or not their content is real or fantasy.  Too often our basic assumptions cause us to jump to the conclusion that since it was an hallucination it therefore MUST be fantasy and we don't bother to test our assumption.  I wasted a lot of years blindly accepting that very assumption.  When I decided to test my assumption I discovered my assumption was in error.  Sometimes the content of our "hallucinations" is discovered to be veritably real and true. 

Test. test. test.

Bruce   
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eric
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #3 - Jan 25th, 2012 at 6:34pm
 
Bruce Moen wrote on Jan 25th, 2012 at 4:15pm:
Again, your basic assumption is that the origin of the "signal" is within the physical body.  You can smash, crush, chop up, destroy and incinerate the radio receiver in any way you like, but if the source of the signal is outside the radio you have had no effect on the signal's source.  At best you have a lobotomized person, chemically or otherwise, with not enough functional brain matter to be an adequate signal receiver.  But you've had no effect on the "mind" mass murderer.

Exactly!  The physical body is sustained by one's nonphysical counterpart ("spirit", "soul", "Mind"), not the other way around.  The physical body dies when the Mind disconnects. 

You are not a physical body.  It would be more accurate to say that you are a fragment of consciousness or point of light.  You have chosen, for any number of reasons, to engage in the human experience for the purpose of learning and increasing the quality of your consciousness.  It is also likely that you have engaged in other physical experiences such as animals and alternate universes.

Focus27 wrote on Dec 20th, 2011 at 11:53pm:
I have done a lot of meditation, which causes hallucinations. It's in fact very easy to meditate long enough and utilize bin aural beats to initiate closed eye visions and hallucinations.

Here's something to think about.  It seems that you are taking your physical experience and using it as a sort of yardstick to decide what is "real" and what is "not real."  Your, eh, "hallucinations" are just as real as the world around you; they are simply located in another area of consciousness.

Bruce's fifth book is a guidebook for contacting deceased persons and gathering verifiable information from them.  It never ceases to amaze me that many skeptics cannot take a fraction of the effort they use to criticize the afterlife and explore for themselves.  Experience for yourself, know for yourself.
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Roman
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2012 at 4:50pm
 
Physical is the end result, not a starting point.
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Religion exist to limit your experiences and for you to surrender your power to an external being while keeping you ignorant of your Higher Wider Self and true nature.
 
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DocM
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2012 at 6:56pm
 
Focus27,

If you research Karl Lashley, you will find he was a neuroscientist who tried to localize where memories are stored in the brain.  To do this, he would teach a rat how do run a maze and give it food as a reward.  Then, in a horrible manner, he would take a hot probe and fry a different part of the rat's brain, and then let the rat run the maze again.  He reasoned that in this way, he would find the location of the "memory" of the maze.

To his surprise, no matter where he burned the brain, once the maze was learned, he could not reliably remove the memory from the rat by burning any one spot.  Some rats had more than half their brains cauterized, yet still showed memory of learning the maze.

His conclusion was that memory was not stored or generated in one location in the rat (and by extension, in people).  He reasoned that the memories were stored across the cortex.  However let's look at this from a different angle.

Bruce mentioned a radio; this is an analogy I have put forth and am fond of. Imagine bringing back a man from the past, say 2000 to 3000 years ago, and put him in front of a TV or radio.  He would assume that there were tiny people inside.  That the radio was doing the thinking and talking.  By the same reasoning we can say - what if consciousness exists in a mental plane and connects to the physical world through our brain and body.  The brain is the "radio" receiving the signal of consciousness. 

But, you may say, what about people who have brain damage?  Doesn't that prove that consciousness arises from the brain.  Not at all.  Imagine a radio or TV.  Damage it in different ways; what happens.  One may hear static, or in the case of a TV, see blurred or unusual images.  In the same way, if a stroke damages our brains, the "receiver" of consciousness may then be damaged so that we see abnormalities in the physical world. 

It is a shame that in western society, we want to use the scientific method so that we deny our basic nature; that of thought and intent manifest through love.  We worship the body and the physical world, and assume that is the only thing which is real.  This is, in some ways laughable, for as Bruce noted, science recognizes that even controlled experiments are always affected by the observer in some way.  And we only believe that the physical (the results of sensory input to our eyes, ears, touch, etc.) is a true reality because we ignore our true perceptual essence which is pure perceptive consciousness.


Matthew
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J.K.Chris
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Re: How can mind and body be separate?
Reply #6 - Feb 18th, 2012 at 4:49pm
 
If you put a stick to the water and mix around, you get waves. If the stick is in the water, then both are interconnected, and work as one. Does it means, that the stick must be in the water always? Does it means that the water must have a stick always? Are there only sticks and waters with surfaces which produce waves? Can the conditions and participants be different?

What is the difference between living body and dead body? Both are humans. Yet one talks and shines, and the other one... well. smells not well... Wink but is alive too, yet in a different manner (Earth energies and bio-processes). What kind of waves of life are missing?

You are looking for a proof, but is your model valid?

What should be a right question? Maybe - "what is the pattern of human self aware consciousness among other patterns of life"? If so, then - how this pattern interacts with various conditions, like the human body we know? Or in the network of memories within society? What are the cues of compatibility between such interfaces?

You don't need to get stuck in spiritual theories in order to know, that something is missing in the mainstream thinking.
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