Copyrighted Logo

css menu by Css3Menu.com


 

Bruce's 5th book, a Home Study Course, is now available.
Books & Tapes by Bruce Moen
    Bruce's Blog now at http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/blog....

  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Christopher Hitchens (Read 8016 times)
Bardo
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 291
Gender: male
Christopher Hitchens
Dec 16th, 2011 at 2:22pm
 
So how long will Christopher Hitchens spend "sleeping", before he can wake up and realize that he was completely wrong about God and the afterlife?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lakeman
New Member
*
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 29
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #1 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 4:47pm
 
Whether intended or not, this question is tainted by the kind of self-righteous condescending triumphalism exhibited by ardent religious "believers" who profess to "pity" the poor, faithless dead "unbelievers" who must now: (a) spend time in a sentence of purgatory; (b) go to Hell and burn for an eternity; or (c) reincarnate on the earth plane to work off all their rotten karma. Not a very enlightened "spiritual" attitude in any case, it would seem.

Although I do not agree with Hitchens' materialist metaphysics (and found his support of the Iraq war utterly baffling), I am sympathetic to his (and others') criticisms of conventional religions and their "gods" for just this very reason.

If my own metaphysics is based on my own attempts to grapple with my various experiences and my interpretations thereof, I am willing to grant that Hitchens' beliefs--however different from mine--were an honest and truthful accounting of his own experiences and thoughts.

Might he now have very different experiences and thoughts? I suppose there might be a way to speculate about this without sounding too harsh, unseemly, or too "I told you so-ish". But sometimes the better part of wisdom is silence.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bardo
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 291
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #2 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 6:00pm
 
You misunderstand my intent. My apologies if my post appeared condescending. I was really trying to get at the process of how a soul, no matter what its level of development, moves from a position of disbelief (which I understand to be a belief system in and of itself), to one where it sees the afterlife as a "real".  From what I have read and seen here, it seems that it is generally understood that an atheist who believes in oblivion, will experience some form of senselessness after physical death. I am curious about how the group sees this process. Again, my apologies for what looks like a glib (or even gleeful) post!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #3 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 6:38pm
 
Given the vision of the afterlife systems suggested by the explorations of Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe, one might surmise that Hitch will eventually find himself in a Belief System Territory for atheists.  Both astral explorers and Jesus alllege that the priinciple of like attracts like governs the afterlife.  Thus, we are not just taken to a lecture hall in Paradise for a debriefing session that corrects all oiur misconceptions.  But what might a BST for atheists be like?  After all, the very fact that they survive death already shatters one of their preconceptions. Does their skepticism initially confine them in a prolonged state of soul sleep, apparently like "the souls statues" in an astral swamp sometimes viewed by astral explorers?  I wish Hitch well of whatever his spiritual journey entails.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
DocM
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #4 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 6:46pm
 
Hitchens was highly intelligent and a skilled debater, yet, when faced with remaining conscious after death, I have no doubt that he will not cling stubbornly to his previous views, but will open his mind to the possibilities.

The real issue with all of us is not what our exteriors are (the mask of civility we display to others), but what our true loves are, and how loving a person we were when alive.

Hitchens was a husband, a father, and no matter the rhetoric he spouted, he either will be open minded and loving after he has passed on, or he will not be so.  If he is open to the possibilities, then it might sadden him that he personally was responsible for convincing thousands if not hundreds of thousands about the benefits of being an atheist or anti-theist.

Guilt can wrack the soul of even a good person, and learning and expressing forgiveness is a vital skill.  I wish Hitch well in the next life.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
HollowScar
New Member
*
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 2
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #5 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 8:12pm
 
It's strange how one person who is notable for contributing his intellect and passion to journalism and restrictions held by religion is put forward with assumptions. He was an open minded man who simply rebelled against organized religious limitations and so forth. Its true that he may go to the void, but I think he did not have full belief in any certainty of what happens after death. He wasn't trying to pray or act because of his beliefs but simply tried to justify his lack of belief. Regardless, I think he might find his way around.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Josh Langley
Junior Member
**
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 75
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #6 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 8:21pm
 
Maybe, just maybe, Hitchens will be better off than most people, as i think he doesn't have the burden of a restrictive belief system of religion and set idea of what god is.

Take religion and the label 'god' out of the equation and be inuqisitive and you'll find you'll be more open to whatever experience is happening and i think that is what Hitchens is going through.

i don't believe (if my memory serves me well) Bruce Moen or Robert Monroe or any other explorer of consciousness uses the term 'god' as it's a very human religious based label and extremely restrictive. Eckhart Tolle doesn't even use it.

Hitchens may well be in a athiest BST, but at east they may be curious about what's going on.


just my 2 cents worth.
Back to top
 

Join me on the journey.
www.joshlangley.com.au
WWW www.facebook.com/joshlangleywriter  
IP Logged
 
pratekya
Full Member
***
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 150
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #7 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 8:29pm
 
If anyone's interested Hitchens had an incredibly interesting debate with William Lane Craig last year that can be watched from the link below - it is well worth the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #8 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 10:53pm
 
Pratekya,

Thanks for post that interesting debate.  In several interviews during his battle with cancer, Hitch acknowledged the possibility of his deathbed conversion.  But he insisted that such a conversion, if it occurred, would be attributable to failing mental capacities eroded by fear and pain.  But his very meditation on this genuine possibilty suggests that, given a radical change of core ausumptions, his afterlife survival might ignite his passion to know that God that makes postmortem survival possible. 

His brother Peter had also been a journalist and a diehard atheist until his 30s and then experienced a beautiful Christian conversion.  He writes about this experience in a recent book.  Peter mercilessly critiqued Chris's book, "God is Not Great;" but then the brothers had a heart-warming reconciliation.  I can only hope that the influence and prayers of Chris's brother might help prepare his heart for spiritual transformation and a softening of Chris's "loathing" [Peter's word for Chris's attitude]  for believers in the next life. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
usetawuz
Senior Member
****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 397
ne fla
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #9 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 11:34pm
 
My thoughts most closely mirror DocM's...I had significant differences on many of Hitch's commentaries...most notably those on the founding fathers, which if accurate would not have resulted in a declaration of independence nor constitution...regardless, I do think his mental acuity, from a soul level would have served him well enough to carry him forward.   Oddly, I do not get any sense of his being stuck...and I've gotten the contrary impression from others.  Blessings to you Mr. Hitchens...fair winds and following seas.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lakeman
New Member
*
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 29
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #10 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 9:14pm
 
"His brother Peter had also been a journalist and a diehard atheist until his 30s and then experienced a beautiful Christian conversion." Hmmm . . . one detects a whiff of some familiar smelly religious cant, if not some obvious "witnessing" behavior. Unless, of course, one also and equally allows for the possibility of "a beautiful Christian de-conversion" (of which there have been many truly heartwarming cases in history, to be sure).

While some tiresome religious apologists may steadfastly maintain that only "God makes postmortem survival possible," postmortem survival as a natural artifact of the laws of non-physical existence, rather than the mercurial effect of a special miraculous intervention, was accepted for millennia in the ancient world prior to Christianism, from the shamans of the indigenous traditions to Greek mystics like Plato, the Pythagoreans, and the Orphics.

That Hitchens could accept neither the naturalist nor the supernaturalist view of immortality does not speak less of his intellect or his heart, however. As a public intellectual, he not only spoke his mind, but also was not adverse to changing it in an equally public manner--no matter how many enemies among former friends such tergiversation produced. That takes both integrity and courage, of which few public intellectuals (education historian Diane Ravitch is another conspicuous example that comes to mind) may lay claim.  One does not need to proffer phony sympathy or compassion for such as him. He'll do just fine without genuflecting before all the old idols.   
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #11 - Dec 18th, 2011 at 12:42am
 
Lakeman: "While some tiresome religious apologists may steadfastly maintain that only "God makes postmortem survival possible," postmortem survival as a natural artifact of the laws of non-physical existence"

And your evidence for this mindless pontification is...?
And the revelant creative laws of nonphyiscal eixistence are?  Duh, not a clue!

Lakeman: "One does not need to proffer phony sympathy or compassion for such as him. He'll do just fine without genuflecting before all the old idols."

Yes. the only people capable of genuine sympathy and conpassion are those who agree with you.  Evangelical leaders like Rick Warren who either  hosted his debates or debated him considered him a good friend.  Nor do you have any clue whether Hitch "will do just fine" or not.  His savage slander of one of the greatest souls of the 20th century, Mother Teresa, just MIGHT betray a judgmental spirit which holds him back on lower planes. 

By the way, early Christianity provides the firset literary evidence for the practice of routine postmortem soul retrievals.  And I hate to break this to uou, Lakeman, but shamanism thrives in oral cultures that evolve over time.  So we have no evidence of shamanistic soul retrievals from the pre-Christian era.

And yes, I know of many beautiful conversions from atheism to theism.  Many of these are atheists who believed in no afterlife, and yet, were converted  through an NDE encouther with Christ.  I consider any progress toward Pure Unconditional Love beautiful, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #12 - Dec 19th, 2011 at 8:44pm
 
I might add that there is much to criticize about how Mother Teresa's clinical depression and extremely conservative Catholicism caused her awesome work to be less effective than it might have otherwise been.  So some of Hitch's criticisms of her work are well taken.  But even "The Village Voice" recognized that Hitchen's critic was fueled by an anti-Catholic agenda of thinly disguised hatred.  The Nobel Peace Prize committee saw through all her limitations and weaknesses and rightly discerned that her life work still deserved this ulitmate recognition.  And of course, the unctious Hitch slanders her, having done nothing himself to help the poor. 

Lakeman's unwarranted claim that the afterlife evolved without divine guidance does raise an interesting question.  Evolution in Nature is catalyzed by natural selection and genetic mutation without regard for lofty values like pure unconditional love.  If one concedes that PUL is a driving force of psstmortem progress, I  would consider this compelling evidence of a loving First Cause, however it {"He"/"She"] be conceived. Also, let us not forget that ES has some of the best verifications for an afterlife and he (like atheist Howard STorm's NDE) celebates awareness of a loving divine presence as an essential feature of elevation to the higher heavens.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
crossbow
Full Member
***
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 207
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #13 - Dec 20th, 2011 at 5:17am
 
Regarding atheists:    I thought I would throw in this piece:

I have found the ardent atheists, who radiate a controlled hatred towards Christianity, to be most religious in their own way, stuck in a partial belief system, fearful of what is beyond their knowledge, and feel safer in their small and enclosed mindedness. Many seem to want revenge against the church for some perceived medieval harm upon themselves, even though they don't believe they existed then. 

But I have found open minded atheists, who are brave and true researchers of truth, to be most easily able to come around to believing in God when the discussion begins as Socrates advised us - First define your terms. 

When we define our terms it is seen to be only logical that God exists. God is the sum total of all existence; that great place, space and substance in which all life exists and lives and moves and has its being; is the sum total of all things, of all forces, and of all intelligences. All combined makes up this greater thing, which is God, and all things, forces, intelligences are parts of this greater and total existence. God is the Totality of All Existence and its all permeating encapsulating, place, space, substance.

Ardent atheists acknowledge the existence of things they can see immediately around them, and yet they deny the existence of God the total existence, place, space and substance, of which all things, forces, intelligences, are parts of, and in which we live and move and have our being. 

It is not blind belief to believe in the existence of our soul and to believe in God. It is simply a matter of defining them and realising that they both exist - one as our conscious existing self and one as the Sum Total of all existence. 

When we believe in our own existence as consciousness, and when we believe that the Sum-Total of all things and of all energies and forces must exist and that that Sum Total is what we call God, and when in contemplation we join our own existent consciousness with the Great Total, that is we open up to it, then our consciousness expands and heightens and begins to know its potential and become one with the great One.

Christ and other teachers have taught us that we must first believe if we are to know the truth. He did not mean to believe in something partial like an unkown idea or an imagining, but to believe in Truth in its parts and its Sum Total, to believe in God the Total, the all encompassing and permeating, the underlying, overriding, origin and eventuality. A belief in an imagined partial concept may or may not exist as a reality, but the Greater Reality must by logic exist because its parts exist. Our believing in It and believing in our own existence, is not an error or a limiting belief system, but a liberation, for it realisation that the greatest of truths must exist.

It has been my experience that atheists who value truth and who are logically minded will relax and concede that God and Soul exists by this definition/description. I have observed that those who reject the existence of God by this presentation tend to be the fearful who have an emotional aversion to the concept or existence of God in any form, or who have a hatred of Christians and Christianity so severe that their atheism is a product of that hatred.  

   


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Berserk2
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 844
Gender: male
Re: Christopher Hitchens
Reply #14 - Dec 20th, 2011 at 3:30pm
 
By human standards, evolution and Nature are cruelly based on the survival of the fiittest through natural selection and genetic mutation.  If there is an afterlife, and I believe there is, then it too is no doubt subject to some form of evolution.  But the most universally attested feature of the afterlife based on astral exploration, NDEs, and the best of spiritual traditions continually implies that progress and standing in the afterlife is largely based on progress towards pure unconditional love (PUL).  This seems to contradict the principles of earthly evolution.  The experience of PUL has a deeply personal feel to it.  Judaeo-Christian  theology universally teaches that divine love emanates from a personal God, but that the term "personal" is woefully anthropomorphic and thus inadequate as a grasp of divine mystery.  The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is ultimately a vague and inadequate way to account for what NDErs report as an experience of "God" encountered through a Being of Light.  The exact relationsship between God and the Being of Light is a mystery that need not detain us, beyond the fact that the Being of Light surely speaks for God.  New Testament tradition implies that people of any faith posture can in principle be "saved," apart from formal profession of faith in Christ.  So the question of doctrinal sectarianism should not be an obstacle to our asseessment of the relationship between "God" (however conceived) and paranormal contact with the afterlife realms.  I honestly don't understand how a rational person could contemplate an afterlife governed by PUL without postulating some concept of "God," unless the Being of Light is divorced from the creative process.  But such a divorce strikes me as unlikely.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


This is a Peer Moderated Forum. You can report Posting Guideline violations.