Conversation Board - Life is so different now

J.K.Chris Junior Member Offline Posts: 56 Poland	Re: Life is so different now Reply #30 - Oct 22^nd, 2011 at 9:30pm Bruce my dear friend, I'm with you. Just say if you need anything. Warmly, J.K.Chris
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I Am Dude

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #31 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:18pm

I find the more I talk about living spiritually and in attunement with my higher self, the more it detracts from actually being in that blissful state of presence, and I have found that many times it can be more of an ego-satisfier than anything else. I see those who post and debate in order to solidify their own beliefs and convert others to their way of thinking, or to give off the appearance of being someone or something, rather than to truly help others. As I practice detaching from the fear-bound ego that had such a strong grasp on me before, this becomes more and more apparent. Let's remind ourselves of why we are actually saying what we say before we say it, and if we find it more self-serving than helpful to others, it should be dismissed and used simply as a lesson to strive to become less attached to ego.

It is not so much the external content which is important, but how it is perceived and used that matters. If a source of information is found to be beneficial to 99%, and is unfortunately harmful to the 1% who misinterpret, misunderstand, or misuse the information, then the intent of those who propagandize against the source should be questioned, regardless of the intent of the source.

I for one will be quick to recommend sources which have proven to be a positive influence in my life and which have assisted in the evolution of my consciousness to higher states of union with my internal divine power. There is a clear distinction between the recommendation of such empowering and inspiring sources of information and the attempt to steer people away from those same sources. One comes from love, and one from fear.

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heisenberg69

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #32 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 6:10am

'If a source of information is found to be beneficial to 99%, and is unfortunately harmful to the 1% who misinterpret, misunderstand, or misuse the information, then the intent of those who propagandize against the source should be questioned, regardless of the intent of the source'.

This reminds me of the website tripadvisor.When myself and my wife go on holiday, we may have a perfectly fine time at a resort, only to find that one or two people consider it to be the worst dump they've ever been to and would'nt go back as long as there's breath in their body ! This is true in any walk of life where people have markedly different views.I think its critical to consider whether the criticisms are from people whose opinions one values in connection with the critiqued subject.

Regarding the old duality/non-duality schism it seems to me that non-duality (putting it inelegantly !) simply means that we are all made of the same 'godstuff'.I think the sceptics of non-duality main objection is the fear that without good/evil duality, anything goes, anything is tolerated. I think that often this fear is more apparent than real.When one's guiding star is love (or the biggest version of it one can currently perceive) then those concerns melt away...
My two penneth.

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Volu

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #33 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 12:15pm

Dude,

"It is not so much the external content which is important, but how it is perceived and used that matters. If a source of information is found to be beneficial to 99%, and is unfortunately harmful to the 1% who misinterpret, misunderstand, or misuse the information, then the intent of those who propagandize against the source should be questioned, regardless of the intent of the source."

I presume, assume and estimate the number of people who suckle at the tits of love 'n light is vastly outnumbered by the people who's outside the nearest physical door leading outside the house. Table turned, and bubble gum music (http://tiny.cc/us4x5) shoves a tiny fragment of real music's generous library (http://tiny.cc/1sme8) into the the cold. I like that YouTube is their planet and they both can live there though one of them is the popular root chakra humping one.

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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #34 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 1:28pm

Dude:

Perhaps you are being a bit disrespectful towards those who try to help others when you characterize what they do as you did below.

One would think that forums would be a good place for people to have an open communication of what's true, but unfortunately people end up doing as you have done.

The main reason I've written 2 books and almost have a new website available is so people can avail themselves to what I have to share "only" if they want to. Such an approach will probably be better than taking part on forums because some people will do as you have done.

An odd thing that takes place is that people who are caught up in belief systems such as nonduality have no problem seeing the error in a thought system such as fundamentalist Christianity, but they are completely closed to seeing error in their own belief system.

If it means nothing to people that I was caught up in the nondual thought system 20 years ago and found my way free of it, that is their choice.

I share what I share not because I have it in mind to force them to believe it. However, there is a difference between saying nothing and being forceful.

Despite what somebody like Tolle would say our mind is not the enemy. Our mind is not something separate from us. To a large extent the thoughts that appear within our mind are a reflection of how our "will" is manifesting at any particular moment. If we don't like the thoughts that appear we need to deal with the parts of mind that are causing our will to manifest in an undesirable way. Trying to pretend that we aren't our mind by focussing on our presence won't lead to a permanent positive result. That said, I doubt that Tolle is 99% correct, even though his book is written in a way where some people end up believing that it is.

If you were actually living according to your higher self to the degree you suggest, you wouldn't minimize and mischaracterize people who try to help as you have done, and you would have better discrimination about some of the sources you promote. Just because you don't allow yourself to see the errors they include, this doesn't mean that they are error free.

P.S. I bet you Scientologists and fundamentalist Christians would say that the belief system they are caught up in is helpful, but is it?

I Am Dude wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:18pm:

I find the more I talk about living spiritually and in attunement with my higher self, the more it detracts from actually being in that blissful state of presence, and I have found that many times it can be more of an ego-satisfier than anything else. I see those who post and debate in order to solidify their own beliefs and convert others to their way of thinking, or to give off the appearance of being someone or something, rather than to truly help others. As I practice detaching from the fear-bound ego that had such a strong grasp on me before, this becomes more and more apparent. Let's remind ourselves of why we are actually saying what we say before we say it, and if we find it more self-serving than helpful to others, it should be dismissed and used simply as a lesson to strive to become less attached to ego.

It is not so much the external content which is important, but how it is perceived and used that matters. If a source of information is found to be beneficial to 99%, and is unfortunately harmful to the 1% who misinterpret, misunderstand, or misuse the information, then the intent of those who propagandize against the source should be questioned, regardless of the intent of the source.

I for one will be quick to recommend sources which have proven to be a positive influence in my life and which have assisted in the evolution of my consciousness to higher states of union with my internal divine power. There is a clear distinction between the recommendation of such empowering and inspiring sources of information and the attempt to steer people away from those same sources. One comes from love, and one from fear.

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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #35 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 1:44pm

Here's an addition to my last post.

Here's another way to put it Dude.

People take the time to speak about something that is important to them, and then you write a post as if you are above it all because supposedly you live according to your higher self. If that's what living according to my presence and saying no to my ego is about, then no thanks.

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heisenberg69

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #36 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 2:12pm

Hi Recoverer,

'If it means nothing to people that I was caught up in the nondual thought system 20 years ago and found my way free of it'

I'd be interested to know what it was about non-duality which you found, in your experience, so pernicious an influence.If you have written about this before can you give a link to it. Thanks.

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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #37 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 2:56pm

Heisenberg69 wrote: "Regarding the old duality/non-duality schism it seems to me that non-duality (putting it inelegantly !) simply means that we are all made of the same 'godstuff'.I think the sceptics of non-duality main objection is the fear that without good/evil duality, anything goes, anything is tolerated. I think that often this fear is more apparent than real.When one's guiding star is love (or the biggest version of it one can currently perceive) then those concerns melt away...
My two penneth."

Recoverer responds:

"Regarding what Heisenberg said, some people get attracted to nonduality because it speaks as if oneness is a reality and people get attracted to this viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that.

However, people can find out about the oneness without making the mistakes nondual teachings include, as listed below:

1. Nondual teachers are enlightened and therefore infallible. If a person concludes that a teacher is enlightened then he will probably also conclude that this teacher is infallible and limit what he believes according to what the teacher says. Therefore, a person who was truly responsible, wise and caring of others, wouldn't claim to be enlightened and make it so people end up rigidly believing according to what he says.

2. Nondualists say that individuality is an illusion and there is only one self. This isn't true. Souls do in fact exist and this fact doesn't make it so oneness can't exist.

3. Related to number 2, nondualists sometimes tell themselves that they don't need to worry about what is going on for themselves because there individuality is only an illusion. Like it or not, all of us eventually have to take responsibility for our existence.

4. Say there was a person who was in a room that was messy, and he tried to stop getting annoyed by the mess by focusing on the space the room is located in. Nondualists do something similar. If they don't like their thoughts, they try to focus on their awareness, their presence. Just as it is better to clean up the mess that exists in a room rather than pretend that it isn't there, it is best to deal with the thought patterns that trouble us, rather than intentionally develop a dissociative-state-of-mind where it only seems as if our thoughts aren't ours. Since our mind aspect of being is just as much a part of who we are as our awareness aspect of being, we cannot separate ourselves from our minds, even though some people believe that they do.

5. Nondualists believe that the World is only an illusion, so we don't need to worry about what takes place within it. Since this World comes from that which is real and people do in fact experience what takes place within it for better or worse, it is more than a mere illusion. Therefore, if we see others suffer it "does" matter. I say this because there are nondual gurus who tell their followers that they don't need to worry about the suffering that takes place in the World because it isn't real. I know of people who have become indifferent towards the suffering of others because they decided to believe according to what their gurus said about the supposed unreality of this World.

6. Some people get engrossed in nondual teachings because they don't want to have to deal with their issues. Nonduality seems like an easy out because according to such teachings all you need to do is overcome your ego. If people got to know the gurus and other people who teach such a viewpoint, they would find that despite what they claim, they haven't overcome their so-called ego. My feeling is that anybody who truly understood what is needed to grow spiritually wouldn't place so much emphasis on overcoming the ego. They would understand that is more of a matter of whether an individual is manifesting in a loving way, rather than a self-centered way. Such growth doesn't come to be by denying one's uniqueness. It also doesn't come to be by battling it out with an entity (the so-called ego) that doesn't exist in the way that some people have defined it.

Or in other words, the search for oneness is fine, but it is important to determine whether a thought system that presents itself as if it represents oneness actually does. Since everything comes from source, things don't need to be denied and negated to the extent nonduality does so.

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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #38 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 3:01pm

Hello Heisenberg:

I posted what I just posted, and then found your post. I believe it might answer your question. When my new site becomes available it will have some free sample chapters from my books that speak about this matter with more depth.

heisenberg69 wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 2:12pm:

Hi Recoverer,

'If it means nothing to people that I was caught up in the nondual thought system 20 years ago and found my way free of it'

I'd be interested to know what it was about non-duality which you found, in your experience, so pernicious an influence.If you have written about this before can you give a link to it. Thanks.

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I Am Dude

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #39 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 3:11pm

Recoverer

I am sorry you chose to feel disrespected. Perhaps you are overly identified with your perceived roll on this forum.

Forums are a great place to communicate about what is true, which is why I spoke of the truth that I have been experiencing in my life and presented a source which may help others realize and live this same truth, whereas another has chosen to try to falsify that truth. I am speaking of the truth that comes in the discovery of one's divine being and the loss of false attachments which cause unnecessary suffering.

Perhaps you did not have luck with nondual teachings because you have misunderstood them.

The mind is not the enemy, unless it is used unconsciously, in which case it will usually reek havoc upon the individuated consciousness which uses it. The key is to understand that who we are is not our mind, but who we are is the eternal divine consciousness which underlies the mind and is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, and the mind is simply a tool and need not be responded to out of ego. The problem is when one overly identifies with the mind, they tend to accept every thought they have as truth, and allow their untrained mind to run the show, creating negative results in all areas of their life. It is only when one is free of false attachments of ego that one's mind can be used to its full potential and for the greatest good.

The goal of focusing on presence is not to pretend that we aren't our mind silly, it is to experience our divine state of being that underlies our thoughts and emotions. It is from this state that one is most connected with source, as my experience has shown me, and the most blissful states are experienced without the influence of mind. Living in this state brings an infinite amount of inspiration, joy, peace, fulfillment, and love into one's life, and this is something I want to share with others in hopes that they strive to live in their own divine grace, free from false attachments.

I believe my discrimination to be just fine, which is why I am able to benefit from a large variety of sources without having the fear-based tendency to focus on negativity and flaws and instead to extract just what I need and what is beneficial and inspiring from each. To not focus on errors is to not give them power.

The truth in any system of belief is shown in the results that are brought about by it in one's life. I am not God-realized by any means, but as I have been making more and more effort to put the truths I am learning into practice, the more and more I am seeing the positive benefits manifest in my life in all areas. It is such an amazing thing to be able to feel inspiration and joy and tap into my divine throughout my day, and have the things I want come to me with seemingly no effort, and it is something I want to help others to realize in their own lives as well.

I see too many people living in negativity, and too many seemingly positive people simply wrapped up in a false ego gratification state of mind. The key is to find true and eternal peace, happiness, and love, and this will not come from the things of the ego which are only temporary, but can only come from that which is infinite and eternal and innately possesses only these highest qualities. I am speaking of our divine self, our highest self, the God within us. I urge everyone to make the effort to find your own inner divine. Living in our highest grace will not only transform our lives, but will transform the world, and as we all know, the world needs transformation now more than it ever has before.

It may be more beneficial to focus on leading people to sources you believe are of the highest positive influence, rather than focusing on deterring people away from the sources you do not agree with. Perhaps if I was surrounded and influenced by people who do what you belief to be "helping," I would not be on this wonderful path to inner realization, and I would not be living in a state of more love, peace, and compassion than I ever have been before (and frankly, that I see most people living in). God knows, you have condemned many of the sources I have spoken of throughout the years. But when I look at where the things I have learned from them have led me and are still leading me, I sure am glad I didn't listen to your scare tactics. The results in my life are proof enough of that.

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Volu Senior Member Offline Posts: 468 Right here and right there	Re: Life is so different now Reply #40 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 3:34pm People are different. There are different roads to the same goal. So there's no need to walk the same path in the same exact style. I don't always agree with your views, but I like reading your thoughts dude and recoverer. I'm glad you two break the still water and create interesting posts and keep topics alive. Thanks.
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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #41 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 4:25pm

Dude:

Please see my responses within brackets.

I Am Dude wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 3:11pm:

Recoverer

I am sorry you chose to feel disrespected. Perhaps you are overly identified with your perceived roll on this forum.

[It is more of a matter of feeling as if you have minimalized what I said and don't understand my motives. Regarding my role on this forum, put it this way, not too long ago I went to a new age fair and there were some young Hari Krishnas there. I felt like speaking to them about what they do, but didn't because I believed it would be disrespectful. To some extent the same possibility exists on a forum. That's part of the reason I wrote 2 books and I am creating website. So people can find what I have to say only when they want to. When on a forum I'm between a rock and a hard place when it comes to sharing information. On the one hand I don't want to be disrespectful, on the other hand I don't want to refrain from being helpful.]

Forums are a great place to communicate about what is true, which is why I spoke of the truth that I have been experiencing in my life and presented a source which may help others realize and live this same truth, whereas another has chosen to try to falsify that truth. I am speaking of the truth that comes in the discovery of one's divine being and the loss of false attachments which cause unnecessary suffering.

[It is fine to let go of unnecessary attachments, but one needs to make certain that one does so in a true way. After years of seeing what takes place with nondual teachings I've found that people often don't gain as much transcendence as they believe they are gaining. What I just said is not a statement on how much transcedence you have gained.]

Perhaps you did not have luck with nondual teachings because you have misunderstood them.

[There are different interpretations, but I am quite familiar with what nondual teachings are about. When I was involved with them I did grow some, but only so far, because in some ways they are inaccurate and incomplete. It wasn't until I was able to free myself from the inaccuracies that I was able to really grow spiritually. On the other hand I know of people who have been involved with nondual teachings for years, and are quite stuck. One isn't going to find out what nondual teachings are about simply be reading a book or two. Years of experience does make a difference.]

The mind is not the enemy, unless it is used unconsciously, in which case it will usually reek havoc upon the individuated consciousness which uses it. The key is to understand that who we are is not our mind, but who we are is the eternal divine consciousness which underlies the mind and is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, and the mind is simply a tool and need not be responded to out of ego. The problem is when one overly identifies with the mind, they tend to accept every thought they have as truth, and allow their untrained mind to run the show, creating negative results in all areas of their life. It is only when one is free of false attachments of ego that one's mind can be used to its full potential.

[I partly agree with what you said above. Understanding that our mind aspect of being is a part of who we are doesn't mean that we give in to thought patterns that don't benefit us. Because we have the mind aspect of being we are able to learn, develop ourselves and make decisions. Our awareness aspect of being needs our mind aspect of being just as our mind aspect of being needs our awareness aspect of being.

It is great that people inwardly become aware of their awareness aspect of being, but quite often people get into this thing where they so much want to be identified with their awareness that they end up denying their mind aspect of being to an extent that is unnecessary and not based on an accurate understanding of what their nature is all about. The same happens with this ego thing, they so much want to become a part of the oneness that they falsely believe they have to deny their uniqueness.

In a way these two approaches are a stage people adhere to until they find that such approaches have limits.]

The goal of focusing on presence is not to pretend that we aren't our mind silly, it is to experience our divine state of being that underlies our thoughts and emotions. It is from this state that one is most connected with source, as my experience has shown me, and the most blissful states are experienced without the influence of mind. Living in this state brings an infinite amount of inspiration, joy, peace, fulfillment, and love into one's life, and this is something I want to share with others in hopes that they strive to live in their own divine grace, free from false attachments.

[My extensive exposure to nonduality has shown me that many people go overboard when it comes to not identifying with their mind. Often because nondual teachers place such emphasis. It is fine to use our inner being as a reference point, but abidance is more about finding where true fullfillment comes from, not from focussing our attention in a particular way.]

I believe my discrimination to be just fine, which is why I am able to benefit from a large variety of sources without having the fear-based tendency to focus on negativity and flaws and instead to extract just what I need and what is beneficial and inspiring from each. To not focus on errors is to not give them power.

[Not everybody will respond to sources in the same way. If you're able to read them without becoming overly influenced that's fine. However, I've found that many people do get over influenced by sources that aren't as truth-based as they claim. Because it is possible to experience some positive effects even when involved with a not completely accurate source, people often don't realize how much they are being misled and limited.]

The truth in any system of belief is shown in the results that are brought about by it in one's life. I am not God-realized by any means, but as I have been making more and more effort to put the truths I am learning into practice, the more and more I am seeing the positive benefits manifest in my life in all areas. It is such an amazing thing to be able to feel inspiration and joy and tap into my divine throughout my day, and have the things I want come to me with seemingly no effort, and it is something I want to help others to realize in their own lives as well.

[I'm not saying this applies to you, but there are many people who have gone through a glorious honeymoon period while with a guru, but then eventually they found that they were going down the wrong path. Check out the book "Enlightenment Blues" as an example. Also, it could be that to some extent you are applying Tolle's teachings in a way that doesn't match how everybody does so. I believe that your experience before reading him might play a role in your interpreting his words in a way that are beneficial. I believe it worthwhile to consider the first link I provided on this thread. I might shed some light on how Tolle's teachings have affected him.]

I see too many people living in negativity, and too many seemingly positive people simply wrapped up in a false ego gratification state of mind. The key is to find true and eternal peace, happiness, and love, and this will not come from the things of the ego which are only temporary, but can only come from that which is infinite and eternal and innately possesses only these highest qualities. I am speaking of our divine self, our highest self, the God within us. I urge everyone to make the effort to find your own inner divine. Living in our highest grace will not only transform our lives, but will transform the world, and as we all know, the world needs transformation now more than it ever has before.

[What you say above basically sounds fine to me.]

It may be more beneficial to focus on leading people to sources you believe are of the highest positive influence, rather than focusing on deterring people away from the sources you do not agree with. Perhaps if I was surrounded and influenced by people who do what you belief to be "helping," I would not be on this wonderful path to inner realization, and I would not be living in a state of more love, peace, and compassion than I ever have been before (and frankly, that I see most people living in). God knows, you have condemned many of the sources I have spoken of throughout the years. But when I look at where the things I have learned from them have led me and are still leading me, I sure am glad I didn't listen to your scare tactics. The results in my life are proof enough of that.

[Similar to what I said before, people respond to sources of information in different ways. Perhaps you have a better knack than usual to benefit by what you read.

However, it is important to not underestimate how much the false bits of information we are exposed to limit us. It is also important to determine whether a source will have a negative effect for others, even if it doesn't effect us in a negative way.

I believe it is worthwhile to add that I've known people who were really good at experiencing bliss, but they weren't psychologically balanced.]

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Beau Super Member Offline Posts: 1176 Greenville SC Gender:	Re: Life is so different now Reply #42 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:05pm When you meet someone who seems to feel they have the market cornered on "the truth" Me thinks it is time to trudge pack and begone.
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recoverer

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #43 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:30pm

Beau:

If somebody finds out that so-called enlightened people aren't what they claim and that not all of the things they say are true, should it be against the law for a person to say what he has found?

Can't a person share what he has found without being a person who believes he has "the market cornered on truth?" If you read the introductions to my books you would see that I make a point of saying that I'm not infallible, and that I'm not beyond being wrong. So-called enlightened people, especially gurus, do often represent themselves as if they are infallible. If you check out the links I provided you'll see that I'm not the only person who is willing to question what Tolle is about.

At least when I speak I try to make valid points, rather than falsely accusing somebody as you have accused me. I don't believe you accomplish much when you do such a thing.

Beau wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:05pm:

When you meet someone who seems to feel they have the market cornered on "the truth" Me thinks it is time to trudge pack and begone.

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Re: Life is so different now
Reply #44 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:38pm

Thanks Volu, but I wonder if my days at a forum like this are numbered. Even though I really make an effort of trying to share what I have found through years of experience, I don't want to be pushy. I guess people will have differing thoughts as to what is pushy and what isn't. I know there are times when I have been pushy.

You know, if I joined a fundamentalist Christian forum and questioned some of the things people at such a forum believe, I'd get similiar responses. People would assume that I didn't know what I was talking about. All I can say is that I'm not the only person who through "experience" has found what the whole nonduality thing is about. It would be great if we could share what we found, but perhaps many people prefer to learn the hard way.

Volu wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 3:34pm:

People are different. There are different roads to the same goal. So there's no need to walk the same path in the same exact style. I don't always agree with your views, but I like reading your thoughts dude and recoverer. I'm glad you two break the still water and create interesting posts and keep topics alive. Thanks.

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