If people on this forum believe or wish to believe that some sort of planetary upheaval and cataclysmic social change is due to occur, and that great planetary suffering will precede a time of better living, then that is one thing.

Relishing in other people's suffering in anticipation of one's belief being fulfilled, is another thing.

We can all see two issues here, although some may pretend they can't.

And it is evident in Bob's post that he is relishing. In reference to the riots and the stock-market crash he calls on others to celebrate, sit back and enjoy, share his ecstasy with what is happening right now, and enjoy the ride, because he says Christmas has arrived.

Those of you inclined to similar feelings as Bob about what is happening may try to defend yourselves by saying he isn't relishing in the riots - but he is, and you are similar to him.

Those people who are watching their beloved city be burnt and looted, who have had their property and livelihoods ruined, who have had loved ones bashed, stabbed and murdered, are not impressed by Bob's calling on others to celebrate and share his ecstasy with what is happening. Neither are they impressed with those of you who defend his words.

As said, anticipating other's suffering, even for beneficial change, is one thing, getting emotionally high when that suffering is witnessed is another thing.

Several of you criticise me for calling Bob a fruitcake, and suggest I am not being loving, as I encourage others to be. Is that the best you can do to criticise me? I say you are fruitcakes too. What is worst to do, to celebrate other's sufferings and call on others to sit back and enjoy, or, to call those who do, a fruitcake? Your scale of what is right and wrong is askew. I am not saying Bob is a better or worse man than I, but in this instant, he has misstepped and put his foot in poo. We all do it from time to time. You should see some of the blunders I have made. 

I don't choose words according to current or collective convention. I am not in the "I'm a good-person competition", that most of those in the western world are indulging in. I have no desire to portray myself as one of the "good people"; as spiritual, loving, or PC. I do not choose my words that way.  What I am inside, I know. I don't care what others think. They get it wrong anyway. (I'm much worse than what they think) I don't dislike Bob, I don't not love him. He is just a fellow like me. I have spoken harshly to/about him, like I have with others - it does not mean I have any animosity or dislike towards him. For all you know, I might even like him, and like some of you too. Mind you, I find one of you as irritating today as he was many many centuries ago. But that is as much me as he.    

For all you fruitcakes know, (I'll repeat that just in case you are reading too fast and missed it, fruitcakes, fruitcakes, fruitcakes) I might know as much, or more or less, than what you think you know about what is looming ahead. But unlike you, I might not care for "information" and "messages", as you term it, about supposed future events. Instead I might prefer to gain my understanding by a more reliable first hand method, and treat information from every source as only information, not knowledge. But regardless of what hardships I may or may not see coming upon others and on the world, (for that is my business and I share it with no one) I see no reason to enjoy it or celebrate it when it comes, as Bob calls upon his friends to do.

And besides, little if anything is certain. Bob's fancying that he and you lot are going to be some sort of "most sought after" leaders/teachers/helpers in a post apocalyptic better world is just more feelgood fantasies, which you lot are prone to.

The future is neither here nor there. We have our work to attend to, day by day. We should attend to it, each day, like it is the last day and there is no future, or like the future is doubtful. Then we can keep the here and now in right perspective. 

Are you going to waste your days waiting and fantasizing that society will collapse and the world will change to suit your fancies of you being some sort of forerunner of a new world system. Thousands of people have wasted valuable potential and living-time by doing exactly that, when they would better have ignored their fancied future and concentrated on doing all they could for their families, colleagues, neighbours and community now.      

Does your "information" and your "messages" about the future, that you put credence in, slow down your present practical work and usefullness, does it entice you to sit back and not contribute usefully to your community right now, each day - because you think your time is coming. Is it slowing your progress and your active helpfulness. It is easy to slow down another by feeding them fantasies about themself and about their future time of usefulness. And of what worth is the here and now, if all this is going to be destroyed and a truer time of our work and usefulness is to come? Such an idea when imparted to others, induces them to postpone their usefulness and the work they could be doing now. Don't be fooled. 

DocM wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 7:32am:


Feel my anger can you, Mathew? I can't. To me life's a hard played game. And hate? None mate. Just playing hard. And if you were here with me you'd see there's a good splash of humour and good will.   

I read Bob's post not just from my point of view, but from others too, who are unlike yourselves or ourselves. Believe it or not, I do understand Bob's feelings, and those who may share them.

Yes, I am sure Bob did not wish to come across as he did. I suspect he can see he could have chose his words more carefully. That's life. As I said above - I have made blunders too, and far worse than this one of Bob's. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't get stuck into him over it. We all need a clout from our mates now and then, me included. besides, I wasn't talking just to Bob, but to all those who tend to get too excited over such things, and to those who may be wasting time and energy focusing on the future and not the here and now. 

Yes, I suppose he hit a nerve, but I know he didn't mean to. London has memories for me. I love that old city. It has given rise to so many great ideas, so much that is good, and that all of us throughout the English speaking democracies have benefited from. It is our mother city. I wonder how the world would be today if there had never been a London.

Even so, it is not so much from a personal angle that I have come at Bob's post. I have sought to widen the view of the subjects of visions and beliefs of future events, emotional reactions to them, here-and-now living, and the possibility of detrimental interference from hindering sources masquerading as helpful.

Thank you for your condolensces, though I am not across the pond, but behind you, across the Pacific.

crossbow    

Crossbow said: "And it is evident in Bob's post that he is relishing. In reference to the riots and the stock-market crash he calls on others to celebrate, sit back and enjoy, share his ecstasy with what is happening right now, and enjoy the ride, because he says Christmas has arrived."

Recoverer responds: I didn't get the same feeling as you when I read what Bob said. Because I can understand where he is coming from I understand that he isn't some mean spirited wacko who gets off on the difficulties of others. Because some of us care about the difficulties people have been going through for generations and will continue to go through if things don't change in a significant way, some of us look forward to Earth changes even if some of them end up being difficult.

Regarding some of us being fruitcakes, well, I like fruitcake, so I don't feel insulted.

Crossbow asked: Quote:


  I echo what Recoverer said.  Some of us are aware and mature enough to apply self in the present, even when we have been given glimpses to probable future scenarios which indicate everything we are used to will change and dramatically so. 

  I know i could do more for others and my community, but my lack is not based on or caused by those above glimpses or messages, but from a general lack of attunement to PUL and to too much selfishness.  I've yet to create a habit of giving and being love as my teacher did and does. 

   In any case, it's our try's and our intentions which are more counted to us as spiritual gain or loss, rather than all the specific actions and developments which unfold in our lives. 

   One way that i try to help out is through my job, wherein i work with people who have disabilities, often children--some of whom have difficult personalities as would be considered by most, and require a lot of patience, calmness, and love based intentions to effectively work with.  I work closely with them on a day to day basis. 

   This job doesn't pay very much (by American standards at least), but since i believe it is important, i stick with it.  I'm also involved with some meditation groups wherein i've found i have some rather different perspectives, focuses, and beliefs than most in same (most are attached to organized Eastern sourced belief systems), but found self as a channel to have a positive, though largely silent effect, through my practice of attuning to love and/or gratitude during meditation. 

 

Well, it seems we have thrashed out that little matter, and maybe come around to understanding each other better, or near enough anyway.

I think we might even have each learnt something about our self from that little tussle. 

I will re-read the thread in a week or two with a fresh mind and see what more I can learn from it.

I have a bit to do this week, so I'll drop in and harass you blokes some more in a little while.    

Thank you for putting up with me folks, especially to you Bob.

What a shame we can't have these debates around a dinner table. What fun that would be. We could have fruitcake for desert.

And Biker Chick, I'd like you to sit next to me - as long as you haven't got a willy.   

Hmm, I wonder if Justin's cat is vegetarian?

Justin,

"I had to stop giving a more Feminine, nurturing love and give a tough love."

Balance instead of the light and dark dance.

How do you view the situation with your brother in light of being unconditional/turning the other cheek?

Justin,

Ok, I also feel that saying no/breaking the pattern/rejection sometimes makes the other person reflect about what they've been doing. And that's why I scratch the head about unconditional, and think it's quite "self destructive" to allow tilted personal situations to carry on. I've been there many times and have later wondered why anybody would put this mode on a pedestal. Kinda like strapping a t-shirt, size extra small, on a walrus who's on a daily diet of bacon. Joking about it but it's quite painful, mentally though.

Thought the walrus in a t-shirt would make a nice segway into the topic, I don't believe like Bob that signing any petitions will change the system. But one can reject parts of the system by refusing to participate, by making individual choices. And unlike Bob I'm not excited by the possibilities laying ahead for earth life, though doom and gloom isn't the right expression neither. But I am excited about leaving physical life behind, for ever, in favour of non-physical life. What I long for now more than anything is an extended stay in f27 and then go back to my disc.

Volu wrote on Aug 13^th, 2011 at 3:27pm:


   The whole 'turn the other cheek' saying attributed to Yeshua does talk about and address PUL, but it all has to be taken in context. 

  Yeshua was born in a time and place wherein "an eye for an eye" was a very strong societal and cultural belief.  There was little understanding, let alone a collective livingness of a more universal, PUL type love.

   So, he sometimes said dramatic things designed to grab the attention of the peoples and attitudes of those times. 

  I don't think he literally meant that it's always helpful to let someone have their way with you or others without ever any consequences or what not. 

  But, really, one can find his teachings more in his examples, which changed according to the need.   Contrary to some portrayals, Yeshua was not a super Feminine, always laid back and gentle kind of guy. 

   Sometimes he spoke strong words to others, sometimes he took strong actions for principles.   

  Yet, the important point is and was, there was ever the inner intention of helpfulness and of care for everyone--even those he was speaking strongly too--especially in terms of their spiritual growth, because as people spiritually mature and expand, they become happier and happier. 

  That is what PUL is really and truly about, a more universal and real concern for the more long term happiness of others, both in an individual and collective sense.  It's about recognizing that Oneness is a reality, and what you do to others, affects the Whole and you with it, because it's essentially and fundamentally One. 

  In the long term, it makes more sense having positive and helpful intentions towards others (wanting to see them happy, whole, and healthy on all levels--especially spiritually, because it's most affecting for all levels of existence), because it helps both the Whole and you.   In a way, it's partially a "selfish" thing, but not in the usual way and meaning of selfish.   It's a big picture selfishness. 

  If Yeshua was here in our times, perhaps he would speak in a bit more complex, relative, and less dramatic way, for there is a little bit more openness, collectively speaking, to the basics of love?