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Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story" (Read 13388 times)
brashboy
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #15 - Jun 13th, 2011 at 12:12pm
 
S.H. is smart by most definitions, but what is intelligence? It seems to me the components are wisdom and cleverness. One might have a huge amount of intellectual candlepower and be considered very smart, but without wisdom the person is merely very clever. I don't know Hawking, but he would seem to fit into this category.

On the other hand, one may have a lot emotional wisdom, for example, but not be very clever and thus not considered conventionally "smart." I had an aunt who was very wise and could always figure out solutions for interpersonal dilemmas. No one in the family considered her all that smart (nor did she, and often said so), but any of us with an intractable personal problem would call her, not the "smart" ones in the family, and almost always get a usable solution.

There actually is a huge body of scientific evidence for the paranormal and an afterlife, but materialists dismiss or ignore it. I suspect Hawking has done both. This is not a judgment, but he sounds like a future retrieval case if he is not at least open to the notion of life after life.

JB
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spooky2
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #16 - Jun 14th, 2011 at 8:55pm
 
I want to emphasize a thing which Lakeman already approached. There is a sort of predominant scientific view, often named as the opinion of the "scientific community". And this is, simplified and channeled through the media, the brain-religion.

I am, at least through my academical education, a member of the scientific community, but I can only shake my head about this naive and childish worldview which some of my "colleagues" are uttering.
Obviously, when someone has gotten the diploma in physics, this one feels to be competent as well in philosophy, and most of the media seem to share this opinion. Probably because it's much easier to repeat the common phrase "you are your brain" than to think about if this makes sense at all. It doesn't.

First, I have no clue what my brain does. Nonetheless I'm able to think.

Second, there are correlations between what we experience and activities within our brains. But correlations are not causations. Most natural scientists, when it comes to the brain, forget their proper education and declare experiences to be caused by activities within the brain. When confronted with the question how this mystical causal process is taking place, to transmute chemo-electrical activities into experiences, they fly to another phrase: They avoid causation, and start to identificate these physiological activities with experiences; because it spares them to explain how this causation would work; but this then is nothing else but mysticism in the bad meaning. To explain a correlation by an identification negates the correlation, as how can there be a correlation between one and the same thing? Some of the smartest of those scientists see this impossibility and therefore deny any correlation; saying our experience is an illusion, and there are only physiological processes. And this then is the end-point: Total delusion with a scientific diploma. As when experiences would be illusions, then their scientific work, together with it's objects, would be illusions, too.

Third, the brain is one of many objects in the world. When someone says that the world is nothing but a representation within the brain, then it is to ask how this one then could know anything about the world? Then the brain itself, and all theories about the brain would be themselves nothing but a representation, an image, within the brain. Therefore, we only could conclude either that there is no brain (or that we don't know anything about it and it's just an empty term), or that the brain is the brain. Congratulations!

Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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Lakeman
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #17 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 8:17am
 
Spooky correctly noted that, “Then the brain itself, and all theories about the brain would be themselves nothing but a representation, an image, within the brain.” Exactly! One of the points that Bohm emphasized was the symbolic nature of ALL of our representations, including our best scientific theories (and, of course, our religious theologies as well). Even these are only metaphors, despite science’s own tendency (born of intellectual laziness?) to treat them as literal descriptions of what is “out there”. Bohm was fond of citing the Polish-American philosopher Alfred Korzybski (and this is just a paraphrase) that reality is always something more and other than what we think it is, because our thoughts are not just transparent descriptors, they are in effect creative, artistic products—part of what Bohm called “the dance of the mind”.

Lakeman
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vikingsgal
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #18 - Jun 27th, 2011 at 6:11pm
 
Hi,


You might find it interesting to check through
Daniel Temmet's decision to believe in God.

Temmet is the person who learned to speak
Islandic well in 10 days.  Smiley
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jdee190
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #19 - Jun 28th, 2011 at 6:21am
 
Hawking said 'there is no place for heaven in the cosmos'

I thought heaven was outside the cosmos?
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Pink-fluff
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #20 - Jun 28th, 2011 at 12:13pm
 
Spooky, as a psychologist I like your logic very much  Smiley
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Beau
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #21 - Jun 28th, 2011 at 8:23pm
 
Very Nice Spooky! I love what you've written here. I am finishing up The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot and that is the only reason I can completely follow what you are getting at here. Magnificent! A pleasure to read a well thought out, to the point, and brief too, post. Awesome.

Yours,
--beau
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All the world's a stage...whose stage?--that is the question!...or is it the answer...Who is on first.
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spooky2
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #22 - Jun 29th, 2011 at 8:15pm
 
Thanks!
It's better to be here than on some intellectual coctail-party, where such topics are discussed, and I couldn't hold back and tell them what I think about it, to the only result that they repeat their opinions without getting anything of what I've just said. I would then have some more coctails  Wink .

Oh, there is another fine invention. It's called "epi-phenomenon". Our mind (our experiences) is, so they say, an "epi-phenomenon" of the brain. Now, a phenomenon, in my book, is a part of our experience, which we can more or less well discerned from the whole of our experiences, and which is not filtered by a rigid theory. So then they say the brain is a phenomenon, and our experiences are an offspring of it? Or what? Don't ask me, I don't know the answer. But you know what? No one knows what is meant by that  Wink .

Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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heisenberg69
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #23 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 2:35am
 
Another tactic a la Blackmore, is to go further and deny the mind even exists ...
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Beau
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #24 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 10:19am
 
Praise the Lowered! They are finally beginning to see something that forces them to reexamine the data.
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chrwe
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #25 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 11:02am
 
just chiming in quickly that this is the best discussion I have read in a long time, it`s great! Thank you all so much for your wise, intelligent and insightful statements!

Btw, also I`ve yet to read a good scientific, convincing explanation of the qualia issue.

All in all, I fully agree to the correlations statement and would like to add that if you combine correlation and any thesis you wish to see proved, you can pretty much proved anything (and such experiments have been made). Simple example, which happens to be true: In one federal state in Germany, there are a lot more storks than in the other federal states. Also, there have been more newborns in the years that extra many storks appeared. Therefore, it is clear that storks bring the newborn....

Anyone can see that although A and B may both be true, the thesis is still plain wrong.
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heisenberg69
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #26 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:56pm
 
.... big Ben chimes five times and workers leave their factories in Sheffield (200 miles north) every day thus Big Ben must cause the worker's exit...
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spooky2
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #27 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 9:48pm
 
Oh yes, and another variant is most of Heroine/Cocaine addicts smoked pot before they started with the hard stuff, ergo pot is the cause for consuming hard drugs! But they never asked how many of them consumed coffee before...

Chrwe, yes exactly, the qualia problem is essentially the same issue. As long as we live in a subjective world (here, me, I, having experiences) it will remain a fact that we don't know how others do experience; we only can conclude by their behaviour, that there are some similarities. What is so strange with scientists who deny that there is any kind of problem is that they don't see the reality of their own subject, for them everything is objective; information, represented as data encoded in material form. That every objective fact stems from a richer, subjective fact (which then is reduced to an objective fact by intersubjective/scientific standards) is something they don't see. The subjective experience is needed to establish the reality.

Spooky
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Bardo
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #28 - Jul 1st, 2011 at 10:00am
 
My good friend, the athiest scientist, says that God (or spirit or afterlife or tooth fairy etc) doesn't exist, because there is no scientific evidence to support it. When pressed, he says that he lives in a world governed by facts. When further pressed, he says facts are articles of knowledge. Upon cross-examination, he asserts that knowledge, is defined (as it has been for millenia) as "justifiable true belief".
Leaving aside the "justifiable", because it is an entire branch of enquiry all it's own, he asserts that a true belief is a belief (agreement with a proposition), that is true (!). Under duress, he declares that if it is true, that it actually exists. That is, it stands up to the scrutiny of the scientific method. Under threat of torture, he declares the scientific method to be the systematic observation of or experiment with a system (usually of or in nature).  So finally, after some gentile waterboarding, he blurts out that his world is based on his "agreement with a proposition" that is based on  his "observations" of the world.

Now that is hard evidence, if I ever saw it.
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chrwe
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Re: Stephen Hawking: "Heaven is a Fairy Story"
Reply #29 - Jul 1st, 2011 at 10:42am
 
apart from the fact that more PUL is recommended even when dealing with scientist hardliners Smiley Smiley, this seems to be the standard scientific method as efficiently demonstrated by the double slit (not sure about translation) experiments in quantum physics
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