Conversation Board - My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources

Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #45 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 9:15pm

Beau wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

So do we all agree there such things as Subjective Facts? That is the only way I can call Albert's (anyone else's) explorations factual, at least as they have been described so far. I know I don't have any objective facts to offer of my experiences, only feelings that feel very different from anything else I've had happen, but I couldn't say what I have learned is at all factual

Well said Beau.

S.

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recoverer

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #46 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

So why bother with reading anything? If the only thing people share is subjective facts, then this also applies to Tom Campbell, Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe.

Or in other words, what they say has nothing to do with a greater reality.

Or, perhaps sometimes people learn about things that are more than subjective fact.

This subjective fact business gets way overdone just like moral relativism. If people don't look out they will lose the ability to see what's right in front of them.

When I felt divine love emanating from Jesus it wasn't a subjective fact. It was a reality.

Beau wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

So do we all agree there such things as Subjective Facts? That is the only way I can call Albert's (anyone else's) explorations factual, at least as they have been described so far. I know I don't have any objective facts to offer of my experiences, only feelings that feel very different from anything else I've had happen, but I couldn't say what I have learned is at all factual

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Beau

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #47 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:25pm

I'm not saying don't talk about it, Albert. I'm only saying that I don't see any facts in it. But I don't see many facts at all. I can't say I think Jesus is a fact or that anything written in the bible is factual, but it doesn't mean I am repulsed by its discussion. Surely you can see how your experiences would be suspect to some extent to anyone who hasn't had the same ones. When I said "Subjective Fact" I was of course being a little facetious but what we do here and discuss here offers very few repeatable facts that can be proven by one to another. For you Jesus is a fact and I completely understand how someone can think that way, but I see no evidence beyond some really great words he may have actually said.

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All the world's a stage...whose stage?--that is the question!...or is it the answer...Who is on first.

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recoverer

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #48 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:25pm

Lucy wrote on Today at 2:47am:
See, even claiming to make contact with Jesus' spirit is not verifiable. Why is recoverer's "contact" sacrosanct but not Helen Schucman's?

Hi Lucy: You have this exactly right. As we know ‘helpers’ can appear in any form they deem useful and communicative… these are all personal epiphanies and not transferable… one either believes the experiencer is telling the truth as they know it or choses not to believe it… but, we cannot argue anyone out of their personal realities… that IS a waste of time and energy…

S.
....................

Above is why I wrote what I wrote about my experiences with Jesus. I wanted to let it be known that a person can have experiences with the spirit of Christ in a way where he (or she) is certain that he had genuine experiences.

It is true that people don't have to accept what people say about their experiences with Jesus; however, there are people who are inspired by what such experiences share just as some people are inspired by reading about NDEs.

When people make comments like Seraphis and Lucy made, it is almost as if they are saying people don't have the right to inspire others.

Lucy's standpoint that we can't determine what others have experienced is self defeatist. There are numerous people who have claimed to make contact with Jesus who haven't done so. As opposed to denying what all people say or accepting what all people say, it is much wiser to use our discrimination and try to determine if somebody is speaking the truth.

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recoverer

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #49 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:30pm

Okay Beau, I get what you're saying. Hopefully some of what I said proves to be valuable to whoever is interested. Perhaps somebody will try to make contact with the spirt of Christ as I did. Out of body dude did a while ago. Ricardo and Timber who used to visit this forum did so.

Beau wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:25pm:

I'm not saying don't talk about it, Albert. I'm only saying that I don't see any facts in it. But I don't see many facts at all. I can't say I think Jesus is a fact or that anything written in the bible is factual, but it doesn't mean I am repulsed by its discussion. Surely you can see how your experiences would be suspect to some extent to anyone who hasn't had the same ones. When I said "Subjective Fact" I was of course being a little facetious but what we do here and discuss here offers very few repeatable facts that can be proven by one to another. For you Jesus is a fact and I completely understand how someone can think that way, but I see no evidence beyond some really great words he may have actually said.

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Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #50 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:39pm

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:25pm:

....................

When people make comments like Seraphis and Lucy made, it is almost as if they are saying people don't have the right to inspire others.

You love to employ crude devices of debate to twist your opponents ideas and arguements... hopefully, people see thru that... Pauli Effect does... what I said and it is in keeping with Monrovian doctrine... seek personal knowns... that is the basis of certainty... not an attempt to inhibit inspiration... and it can only be real to the individual... you definitely had a life time as a Jesuit.

S.

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recoverer

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #51 - Apr 13^th, 2011 at 11:03pm

Seraphis:

When you minimize the value of what people have to say by stating that it is unverifiable, you set up a condition where people can't share with the hope of inspiring others.

This particular issue isn't new. I've seen other discussions including places other than this forum where in some way people basically tried to invalidate what people have to say about their experiences with Christ. I believe it is irresponsible and disrespectful to do so when a person doesn't actually know what another has experienced. If they tried to listen to such people with their hearts rather than a circular way of thinking that makes it hard to verify anything, they might have more success.

Think about it for a moment. Out of love, Christ shares his being with a person who is open to his presence. People share this gift with others, and naysayers who don't know what they are talking about belittle it.

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Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #52 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 12:51am

Quote:

Seraphis1 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 4:07pm:

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 2:26pm:

Also, William Thetford, a man who worked as a mind control specialist for the CIA, talked her into continuing to take notes. I find it hard to believe that the spirit of Christ would choose a lady with a strong distaste for spirituality to be his messenger. It also seems hard for me to believe that Jesus would select a lady who has a strong association with a CIA mind control specialist.

You know, of course, that the Monroe Institute WAS the main creator of the CIA’s remote viewing program whose star pupil was Joe McMonagle… intimately associated with the Monroe Institue and once married to Monroe’s daughter… also, Monroe made very concerted efforts to distance himself and his work for the metaphysical.

S.

Monroe was not involved in this except as to let some agents come down to TMI and train in his courses. He and his staff said that they were usually pretty easy to spot despite that they were trying to be "under cover".

Monroe and McMoneagle btw, had a falling out for some years, which was only reconciled when Monroe was on his deathbed. It states in his 2nd biography that he would not speak to either Nancy or Joe for a long time.

No one but they know what this falling out was truly about. There is plenty of speculation though.

I assume your source is a biography and not first hand. I was in a tmi seminar situation wherein McMonegale talked with us openly and directly he said that he and Monroe had knockdown dragout discussions but it was never with animus... The president of the Monroe Institute is Skip Atwater who was the primary leader of the CIA remote viewing effort and he knew Monroe personally and that Monroe was intimately involved in the developement of the program... and he he no way suggest his group came to Faber undercover... tho it WAS a secret program so they obviously probably did not advertize what they were doing if they indeed operated within the seminar civilian population... there is something missing in your source material.

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #53 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 1:08am

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Seraphis asked: What are the errors(of ACIM)?

1. It has too much of an all or nothing approach. It makes statements that make it seem as if there is no point in trying to overcome specific limited patterns of mind because until you undo the supposed separation, it won't matter. I have found that the more I have dealt with specific limiting thought patterns the more I've grown spiritually.

How does this invalidate the whole of the system or body of teaching. Christian Science has a similar approach with respect to healing which is functional within a certain narrow context and if its adherents follow the ‘healers’ instructions to the letter they can effect what appears to be a healing… but the healing requires complete and absolute denial of the existence of the ailment… it is not universally workable but, it does work for those who are capable of this kind of mind control. This is simply AN approach.

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #54 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 1:21am

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Seraphis asked: What are the errors(of ACIM)?

3. It tries to get people to believe that God has nothing to do with this world by saying things such as "Everything God creates is perfect." Regarding this saying, if everything God creates is perfect, then where did that which created this world come from? God is not separate from this world. I haven't obtained the highest state possible, yet I'm able to experience divine love.

This is interesting because there is NOT one anthropormorphic God… there are thousands of anthropomorphic ‘gods’… beings who have harnessed the Astral Mud… the Facilitator for example. There is the Manifest/Unmanifest (some call this God)… which is pure Love and everything that manifest is perfect… this is the paradox… there is no source… things just are… why wouldn’t you be able to experience divine love, it is a place on the scale to the Absolute… but Pure unconditional Love… is another thing entirely.

So this concept is not far from the mark if understood in its proper context.

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #55 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 1:33am

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Seraphis asked: What are the errors(of ACIM)?

4. It tries to get people to be indifferent about the problems of this world by making statements such as "Nothing you see is real." Its 365 day affirmation course serves this end. I can't remember the exact words, but it actually has people repeat affirmations that serve the purpose of making them believe that the intense suffering many people go through isn't actually taking place. Going by the messages I've received, Christ would not strive to make people indifferent. I find it hard to believe that Christ would come up with a one size fits all 365-day affirmation course.

That is a valid approach. The Cosmos IS an illusion… and

‘The greatest illusion of all is that man has limitations’ Robert A. Monroe

Case in point: A drug dealer in Harlem was about to be murdered by his rivals… he cried out to God… ‘…save me and I am your servant…’ in that moment of desperation to live and with a clear intent to serve God… he was spared… he now is a selfless preacher in the inner city helping the poor and disadvantage… this is a clear and self-evident proof of the fact that the cosmos IS and illusion held together by belief system matrixes… the drug dealer simple had a bold intention to change channels… voila… the channel changed… he survive to serve humanity, rather than undermine humanity.

But to accomplish this take primarily ‘grace’ but also a powerful intention. And affirmations focus that intention…

S.

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Lucy Super Member Offline Posts: 1158 C1	Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources Reply #56 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 4:52am Pat Benatar rocks!
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Lucy

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #57 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 5:37am

Justin

I missed the posts where you said something that tied you in with recoverer. I don't think your posts are the ones that have driven people from this site or caused people to not post experiences here. I don't always agree with what you say or with your tone but I think you are pretty mild-mannered. I do recall seeing recoverer write something about the two of you trying to warn people about some of the things that are posted here. yeah I should go back and find it but it takes a lot of time.

every time certain topics come up recoverer jumps in and puts down the source. If you do that I missed it but that kind of behavior creates a situation that is undesirable, to me anyway. Our friend Don used to do the same thing. People left this board because of that.

Christianity and I have a complex relationship. Sometimes it is a mistake to use the same word for so many things. We need as many words for Christianity as the Eskimos have for snow.

Organized religion I can do without, across the board. I think organized religion is crowd control. Often is I use the word Christianity it is wrt organized religion. I hestitate to criticize organized religion in many circumstances, 1 because it makes me unpopular ! and 2 because people turn to the other people in their religious communities in times of need and I don't want to mess with that.

beyond that, I think the whole institution is fair game and we don't have time now for all my ideas on that! I am an ex-Christian and that is worse than an ex-smoker! I don't think there's much Christ in Christianity and as such it ought to be marginalized.

I understand you have a personal relationship with a spirit you identify as Christ. I can't argue with that. I can't argue with anyone's personal experience. and You are pretty independent and I don't think you would feel comfortable with someone asuming that you fit any one of several "Christian" molds because of that. And if it is truly holy and true, I can't do anything to damage your relationship because by definition, if it is true, I can't make it not true. So what do you care if I bash Christianity?

I'm going around in circles in my mind trying to discern some underlying disagrement we are all having here.

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Lucy

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #58 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 7:00am

Recoverer

I think your description of your experiences is moving and beautiful. That post that begins
"Regarding what makes me certain about making contact with Jesus, first of all, years ago, I had what I refer to as my Night in Heaven experience."
is a wonderful post. I don't doubt that you have had (and will probably continue to have) profound experiences.

The disconnect comes when you then proceed to somehow use that as an authority to question the validity of other systems of thought, and you tend to use what I call ad hominum arguments to do so.

And the net effect of that is that it makes some people reluctant to post here. And you make it impossible to discuss certain topics because without doubt you are going to pop in and discredit what is being discussed.

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Lucy

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Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #59 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 7:21am

Quote:

...you seem to believe you know what is best for this forum, which seems to include stopping the particular actions and postings of particular posters. Just because you haven't outright said this, well it can be read inbetween the lines quite clearly to those sensitive to such things.

Justin this kind of bothers me because I think it is out of sequence. I have many times let topics go by because i didn't have the energy to add to contention on the board. I did not start the arguments about RB or about ACIM, I didn't come here and initiate a discussion about these topics. But I have often seen almost a Pavlovian response to certain topics to the point where it feels like someone else is trying to stop these topics from being freely discussed (just as what happened here a few years back) and I got tired of it. So my actions are a response, not an initiation.

And I really feel the comments about Robert Bruce based on anything he said or didn't say about Sai Baba do not prove his methods are worthless. The comments seem like pretty shallow arguments against RB in the scope of the bigger world.

As we get into that discussion, we see alot of other issues and disagreements coming out, and things start to get convoluted.

Maybe your idea of just scrolling past and leaving that dissenting person out of the discussion is a better approach.

But Beau asked why this nitpicking has to go on, so here we are.

This is a website to discuss stuff related to the ability to perceive the afterlife.

In that small Southern Bible Belt town where I grew up, I wonder how many preachers would be trying to discredit Moen and Monroe with the same type of arguments that are used here against RB and ACIM and so forth. But they had all seen the light, to borrow and expression from Hank Williams, and they all knew the truth.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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