Copyrighted Logo

css menu by Css3Menu.com


 

Bruce's 5th book, a Home Study Course, is now available.
Books & Tapes by Bruce Moen
    Bruce's Blog now at http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/blog....

  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 ... 8
Send Topic Print
My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources (Read 47974 times)
Justin aka Vasya
Ex Member


Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #15 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:42pm
 
Lucy wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 5:39am:
Oh Boy

Freedom of Religion meets Freedom of Speech

= War
   


  Maybe Lucy, maybe this is sometimes the case, but i don't think so in this case here. Isn't this all a little over dramatic?  I don't see this all as a war.

  Maybe what is happening is simply that we have a bunch of different people here with in some ways rather different experiences and perspectives. 

The average person cannot fully read another's intent, but i suspect that almost all the people that post here have more good intent in their hearts than not most of the time when they post. 

  I would say that about you, Beau, and pretty much everyone i've personally disagreed with here before.  I think most of us mean well.

   But because we come from different backgrounds, experiences, and because like attracts and begets like is always happening on some level, then another's perspective will clash with ours sometimes, or we won't see clearly what they are trying to say from a deeper heart intent place.

  Anyways, i would agree that sometimes Albert and i to a slightly lesser extent sometimes focus too much on criticism of outer sources.  I can see where that would be a turn off for people, especially if a person likes or is into a source that we criticize.  Whether or not you see it, i have tried to tone this down.  This is why i try to keep my mouth shut when certain teachings and books like ACIM come up.  I did recently refer to it, but only shared briefly just my experience of guidance steering me from it.   And i only did so because another forum member spoke about a very similar experience that i had and i wanted him to know he wasn't the only one (i wasn't previously aware that he had had these experiences or even tried ACIM).

  But i wish that you and others could see into my heart and realize that i'm not trying to upset or hurt anyone, but speak out of concern and tend to speak impersonally to a larger public that's not just posting but maybe reading.   Many read this site.

   But if you want to pigeon hole me and my intent, that is fine too.  I most likely cannot convince you otherwise.

  And to be honest, i think if we were being totally honest withourselves, we would realize that most of us have a part of us which sometimes thinks and feels "well, i do think i know better in this area".   It's then hard to teach that particular truth on a forum via typed words and strike that perfect balance of speaking from knowingness without sounding like one is an arrogant know it all or without stepping on others toes.

  The best teaching is done by silent example.  That is really hard to full actualize on a forum like this.  That's what i normally do in my day to day life.  I talk little, but try to live the spiritual teachings, and hope that this rubs off by example and vibes.

  Beau and you seem to believe you know what is best for this forum, which seems to include stopping the particular actions and postings of particular posters.  Just because you haven't outright said this, well it can be read inbetween the lines quite clearly to those sensitive to such things.

  I will continue to try to tone it down on my end, but sometimes i will feel it's helpful to point out the red flags i see in relation a particular source. 

  Meanwhile, it's not like i ever ask anyone to automatically believe me.  I always advise people to go within and find out for themselves.  I often share the practices which have helped me to do this in a more clear and consistently accurate manner.   The point is is that i stress that there are more ideal and less than ideal ways of receiving info from the nonphysical. 

  Not all "guidance" is particularly enlightened, and some forces nonphysically downright have ill intent.  This is why i stress time and time again attuning to the feelings of love, then universalizing it, and then asking to attune only to the most Source attuned consciousnesses and energies.   
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Justin aka Vasya
Ex Member


Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #16 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:50pm
 
DocM wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:34am:
Justin,

I got the same feeling you did from Tim's post, and this surprised me because I know him to be a loving, gentle soul.  However, we are all human, and all have our ups and downs.  Our likes and dislikes.  The "stfu" comment has no place here, but it came out of true anger and honesty, so there it is. 

I don't think anyone sets out to condemn one source of knowledge or group of people.  But if the term "knowledge" is to mean anything, we must enter into ideas about meaning and truth, in order to sort out what takes us closer on our path toward love and perception. 

I myself have a personal disdain for moral relativism and the relativism of truth, as I think if one starts from a given that love is the foundation of our beings, that sets up, by necessity, a logical path to follow along with love or hate (a "right" path).


M


Very well said Matthew, and re: the highlighted part i know this all too well.  I remember going through a particularly difficult cycle some years back, becoming very uncentered for a time, and it showing quite strongly and extremely here and unfortunately others suffered for it.  I've forgiven myself for this, but i won't ever completely forget. 

  It's because of experiences like these and the general human experience is why i don't personally judge someone when they say things from an uncentered space.  I don't see that as the sum of the person.  I've seen a lot of positive in Tim F. as well.

  But just because i don't personally judge Tim for saying what he said, doesn't mean that i won't point out that doing and saying such things is a limited way.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
recoverer
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 5027
Gender: male
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #17 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:58pm
 
Similar to what Justin just said, I don't like to go overboard when it comes to speaking about questionable sources, but sometimes it's like walking through a minefield.  There are a lot of misleading sources people like to expose others to, and for whatever reasons some people believe only one side of the story, regardless of how inaccurate, can be told.

If there are people who aren't interested in what Justin and I have to say about questionable sources, that's fine, but what about the people who are interested? Should such people lose the right to hear what we say because others don't want to do the same? If somebody wanted to expose a President should he be prevented from doing so because the  President's supporters don't want to hear it?

If somebody knows something about a source I hope they let it be known, because I want to be wise to what's going on, rather than unknowledgeable. I wholeheartedly thank the beings of love and light that clued me in on ACIM.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Justin aka Vasya
Ex Member


Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #18 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:11pm
 
recoverer wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:00pm:
Why doesn't Tim ever complain when people put down Christianity?


  Very good question Albert though i would make it more general.   

  I've seen Christianity bashed here a number of times.  It's probably the single most bashed belief system on here, and yet most of the good forum folk, the regular non Christian posters do not say anything about this.

  I've seen Doc/Matthew (a non Christian), and an occasional other poster stick up for principles sometimes.  But mostly otherwise silence.

  I don't tend to say much then either, because while i seem to get pigeon holed by some posters to being a "Christian" because i speak so highly about Yeshua sometimes, i actually don't identify with Christian religion and haven't ever in this life (this difference apparently is hard to get for some.) 

  I see plenty off with Christian belief systems and ways too.  Hence i tend to remain silent, since i would be a hypocrite since i sometimes speak critically about some other beliefs and sources.  I also remain silent because i know that some people have had such difficult childhood etc. experiences with Christianity in it's fundamentalist forms and i know that sometimes one needs to "vent" about such things. 

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Seraphis1
Super Member
*****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 1446
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #19 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:26pm
 
Quote:
recoverer wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:00pm:
Why doesn't Tim ever complain when people put down Christianity?


 
  I've seen Christianity bashed here a number of times.  It's probably the single most bashed belief system on here, and yet most of the good forum folk, the regular non Christian posters do not say anything about this.





Isn't it possible to have well deserved criticism and expose and not be bashing...??

S.
Back to top
 

 
IP Logged
 
recoverer
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 5027
Gender: male
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #20 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:35pm
 
Seraphis asked: Isn't it possible to have well deserved criticism and expose and not be bashing...??



Recoverer responds: Yes it is.  Even when people speak about their reservations about people such as Robert Bruce. But some people become overly defensive just as a fundamentalist Christian would do.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Justin aka Vasya
Ex Member


Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #21 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:39pm
 
Seraphis1 wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:26pm:
Quote:
recoverer wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:00pm:
Why doesn't Tim ever complain when people put down Christianity?


 
  I've seen Christianity bashed here a number of times.  It's probably the single most bashed belief system on here, and yet most of the good forum folk, the regular non Christian posters do not say anything about this.





Isn't it possible to have well deserved criticism and expose and not be bashing...??

S.


  Yes, and that's a good point.  My point was that there has been a hypocrisy here with it being ok to speak critically about one belief system or source, but not another. 

  When i addressed what Robert Bruce had written i was not trying to "bash" him either.  I have no ill feelings towards him, but i did see contradiction, dishonest back peddling, etc. in some of what he wrote and saw these as "red flags" in a source that has set themselves up as an authority of knowledge and wisdom nonphysically/spiritually.  I especially pay attention to such red flags in "spiritual sources" because by nature and definition they are supposed to be the most ethical, honest, and positive sources around.

  Personally, it's been my feeling growing up in the U.S. and having had my eyes wide open for a long time to the corruption, dishonesty, etc. that goes on with our Federal gov. especially, that we should always be most critical about and towards those that have gone to lengths to set themselves up as an authority or in a position of power.

  As much as i respect and like Bruce Moen and his work, if i saw him starting to say or do things which struck me as dishonest, unethical, or what not, you bet your arse i would speak up about it.   Why, because he is in a position of authority and power to some extent. 

  The average person with their beliefs and opinions, i could care less and focus on less.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Seraphis1
Super Member
*****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 1446
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #22 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 7:16pm
 
Quote:
Seraphis1 wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:26pm:
[quote author=537A417D5E737D466167537A7A5D7F7F6073120 link=1302445549/18#18 date=1302631917][quote author=3F282E223B283F283F4D0 link=1302445549/13#13 date=1302627616]Why doesn't Tim ever complain when people put down Christianity?


 


  When i addressed what Robert Bruce had written i was not trying to "bash" him either.  I have no ill feelings towards him, but i did see contradiction, dishonest back peddling, etc. in some of what he wrote and saw these as "red flags" in a source that has set themselves up as an authority of knowledge and wisdom nonphysically/spiritually.  I especially pay attention to such red flags in "spiritual sources" because by nature and definition they are supposed to be the most ethical, honest, and positive sources around.

 


Is it possible to site the sources of the backpedaling and the original teaching and his reversal or inconsistency... I've only study bruce's work relative to obe's and I have found no inconsistency it that part of his body of work... perhaps you could make your case with more detail.

S,
Back to top
 

 
IP Logged
 
Seraphis1
Super Member
*****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 1446
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #23 - Apr 12th, 2011 at 8:18pm
 
Beau wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:28am:
Lucy's point about shaming people is well taken and there are a few who use words like this as if they know something beyond the scope of the others.


Can you give an example of people being shamed… this is puzzling since how can you shame someone on this board particularly when most people here are quite astute about what they believe… Pauli Effect gave scathing and very well reasoned rebuttals in the Robert Bruce thread… the silent majority I believe were more convinced by his arguments than the opposing and attacking arguments which were woefully lacking in substantive and objective facts.

S.
Back to top
 

 
IP Logged
 
Justin aka Vasya
Ex Member


Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #24 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 12:27am
 
  Hi Seraphis, i covered it enough in another thread.  We apparently have a difference of perspective and interpretation on what i was referring to.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Lucy
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1158
C1
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #25 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:47am
 
War: it is a battle, and it has been going on for a time. Should I make a smiley face when I am being a little overstated as humor? Idid separate with a line. This shows one of the problems: written thougths without the face-to-face interaction. I've certainly sent emails that were not interpreted the way I thought I "spoke" them.
__________

What's a questionable source?
What's a reliable source? What is verifiable?

Bruce posted a link to an article that points out some things that looked data-driven are not now seeming to be so factual.

The underlying question is, what is etched in stone? Not much, and the stone can be broken.

See, even claiming to make contact with Jesus' spirit is not verifiable. Why is recoverer's "contact" sacrosanct but not Helen Schucman's?

I chose the word "shame" because it feels like shaming behavior to me. I'm trying to use a technique where I explore how I feel and try to tell you how what you do makes me feel because there is something going on here that I think Albert is not getting but I don't want to argue logically i.e. about the ideas because that has not been productive.

There are certain topics that come up and the same people feel compelled to jump in and make ad hominum arguments rather than discuss the issues and it is the ad hominum aspect that I think is involved when this situation makes some people not want to share their experiences here. I think the arguments against Robert Bruce are kind of silly. But you keep on and on as though they have substance. And it makes it impossible to have a discussion about Robert Bruce's work. And as soon as the topic came up, I waited for the negative comments to start; it was inevitable; and they did. And you think I would try to prevent certain people from posting here??? I don't get it.

The constant doing of this is a kind of shaming. I can understand why Tim might just lose it and say 'stfu'. I feel like someone's mother-in-law is ragging on about something. Sorry, I own these feelings, but this is how I feel when people start with the ad hominum arguments. I don't think getting mad and slipping into name-calling is the solution...but I can see how face-to-face I might make a facial expression that says, I think that is stupid, but then go on with a more sensible argument, but you can't do that here (and I don't really like smileys).

Like, I think there is a difference between saying "ACIM is misguided" and "ACIM is not for me."  Who here can walk on water? How do you really know ACIM is "wrong"? But if it is not for you, that's cool. Do you see the difference in the two ways of expressing dislike?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Seraphis1
Super Member
*****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 1446
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #26 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 7:51am
 
Lucy wrote on Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:47am:
See, even claiming to make contact with Jesus' spirit is not verifiable. Why is recoverer's "contact" sacrosanct but not Helen Schucman's?



Hi Lucy: You have this exactly right. As we know ‘helpers’ can appear in any form they deem useful and communicative… these are all personal epiphanies and not transferable… one either believes the experiencer is telling the truth as they know it or choses not to believe it… but, we cannot argue anyone out of their personal realities… that IS a waste of time and energy…

S.
Back to top
 

 
IP Logged
 
Seraphis1
Super Member
*****
Offline


ALK Member

Posts: 1446
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #27 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 7:57am
 
Lucy wrote on Apr 13th, 2011 at 4:47am:
Sorry, I own these feelings, but this is how I feel when people start with the ad hominum arguments. I don't think getting mad and slipping into name-calling is the solution...but I can see how face-to-face I might make a facial expression that says, I think that is stupid, but then go on with a more sensible argument, but you can't do that here (and I don't really like smileys).




Hi Lucy: Think of it this way… what people post and their method of argument etc… tells you a lot about them. Think about it.

S.
Back to top
 

 
IP Logged
 
recoverer
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 5027
Gender: male
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #28 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 2:26pm
 
If a person wants to know whether it is possible to make contact with a particular spirit in a manner that is certain, then perhaps they should make an attempt to do so, rather than engaging in experience-lacking-intellectual activity.

If we set things up so we can never become certain, then we basically place ourselves within a psychological trap. Doing so reminds me or moral relativism. If we don't allow ourselves to see the difference between right and wrong, we won't do so.

Regarding what makes me certain about making contact with Jesus, first of all, years ago, I had what I refer to as my Night in Heaven experience. I was an atheist at the time. If somebody would've tried to tell me that the afterlife exists I would not had believed he or she. But then I had my experience, and it became crystal clear that the person of Jesus did in fact exist, and that in some way he represented divine reality (his spirit still does). There was nothing stodgy or repressive about this. It wasn't a matter of my engaging in some belief system because my way of understanding was at a deeper and far more certain level than we ordinarily understand. The funny thing is that eventhough I was open to this new way of understanding, I was still able to think in my old atheistic way. Therefore, I was able to compare my old way of understanding with my new way of understanding. I was quite surprised to find what I found out about Jesus and other things.

As significant as this experience was, I forgot about it for years, just as some near death experiencers forget what they experienced for a while. This doesn't mean that my experience lacked validity. When I remembered it was as if the experience happened yesterday. There are reasons for which it was necessary for me to forget it for a number of years.

At some point after I had made contact with my spirit guidance I started to receive hints about Jesus. For example, I did a retrievel one time and at some point the guy I was helping forgot about me and went to where Jesus was. Gold light radiated from Jesus and filled the entire scene I found myself within. When I took part in this retrievel I didn't have prior thoughts of Jesus.

On another occasion I received a three-part message about my awakened kundalini. First I was shown a life-size image of a heavy metal rocker dude. I could see kundalini flowing within him. He said I use my kundalini for evil. Next I was shown a life-size demonic image of myself. Next I was shown the face of Jesus Christ. I figured this series of messages meant that if I'm going to go through the kundalini ascension process I better make certain I do so with Christ consciousness/love in mind because kundalini (the creative aspect of being) can be used in just about anyway. In the above case Jesus' image could've been symbolic, but it also could've been a pointer to him, when later experiences are considered.

I reached a point in my life where I realized that I didn't actually know who Jesus is and what he is all about. I only had knowledge-lacking concepts about him. As I went for a walk one day I sent thoughts towards God and said, "I can't believe in Jesus in the way that some people do simply because a book speaks about him. If I believed in him for such a reason I would be dishonest with myself and with you (God)."

A few days after I stated the above and as I lay in bed one night I was shown a crucifix. I asked, "why" and was shown an armless and headless manikin that was placed on a department store floor. On this manikin was a white fur coat with black polka dots. I understood what this message meant quite quickly. "They killed him (Jesus), they spotted his reputation (the black polka dots on a "white" fur coat), they put him on display (like a manikin in a department store)." Next I experienced myself press the high C note of my piano (non-physically), which is a way of saying Jesus represents the highest consciousness level there is.

This sequence of images appeared in a manner for which it is hard to believe that nothing more than my imagination took place. For one thing, it didn't feel as if my imagination was responsible. Also, the symbolism was probably too clever for it to be the result of my imagination. Rather, because I was humble enough to realize that I didn't know what Jesus is about and because I was open to finding out what was true, I received an answer.

On another occasion I was meditating one night and feeling love, peace and expansiveness. Suddenly the image of Jesus appeared to me. He gave me a couple of messages and left. Because at the time I was trying to figure out what Jesus is about, I find it hard to believe that my spirit guidance would lead me astray by showing me an image that isn't representative of what's true. Because I was feeling love, peace and expansiveness when I had this experience, I doubt that some deceptive being found a way to enter the realm of my consciousness and show me an image of Jesus. The manner in which the exchange took place seemed to be beyond what my imagination could create. I did not have the intent to make contact with Jesus on this occasion.

One evening I read some of Elaine Pagel's book about Jesus. She wrote that the Gospel of Thomas speaks of Jesus as if he was an enlightened man, the Gospels of Mark, Luke and Matthew as if he is the son of God, and the Gospel of John as if he is God himself. Before I went to sleep that night I prayed and asked to have a dream which let me know which gospel is accurate. In the middle of the night I woke up in order to write dream notes. I turned on my night lamp and grabbed my notepad and pen. Before I could write anything I saw a light flash. Before this experience I had seen spirits appear as flashes of light numerous times. But they were significantly smaller and didn't radiate as much energy and light as I saw on this occasion. The presence I experienced felt more real than this physical world. The existence of divinity couldn't be doubted. I forgot about writing my dream notes, put down my notepad and pen, turned off my night lamp and lay on my side. I was overcome by the spirit presence that visited me.

I didn't see an image of Jesus during this experience nor was I told this is who is visiting me, but it "felt" like it was his spirit. Plus, this seemed like a natural response to my prayer. This being worked on my energy for about 15 minutes in a way that was beyond what kundalini had ever done. Ever since, my upper chakras have been more alive, clear and balanced.

I've had other experiences where a spirit with the image of Jesus appeared to me, but I believe it should suffice to say what I've said. It is also important to state that during the same time period I remembered my Night in Heaven experience.

I've read of other people who have made contact with the spirit of Jesus in a way where it seems quite certain that this is what they did. For example, during his NDE David Oakford was led by a guide who introduced him to the spirit of Jesus. Therefore, it wasn't a matter of David erroneously assuming that the light being he met was Jesus. This is what he wrote:

"He talked about Jesus too. He told me Jesus was a master God sent to Earth to teach humans how to act toward each other and find their way back to the path of harmony with each other as well as with Gaia.
--I was told that Jesus is the being that is entrusted by God to ensure that souls evolve. He said that Jesus is of the highest in vibration than any other soul. He said that God holds Jesus in the highest of favor because he was the best example of what humans need to do. I then got to see Jesus. I saw his light. Jesus' light was the purest I have ever seen. There was no need for words. There were only love feelings that I cannot even begin to describe."

Here is the link to David's experience. Does it sound fundamentalist?

http://www.near-death.com/oakford.html

Regarding ACIM, I gave the course a good try for a while, despite some hints from my spirit guidance to be careful with it. Then I realized it was having a brainwashing effect on me. So I decided to be humble about the matter and realized that I wasn't able to discriminate it with certainty. So I prayed to God and Christ and asked them if the course comes from Christ. On every occasion I asked I was in some way told "no." Because I felt love, peace, expansiveness and divinity each time I asked this question, it seems reasonable to believe that a being who represents the light responded. This is especially so since my guidance has proven to be trustworthy.

Eventually I reached the point where I allowed myself to read ACIM with discernment, and despite some of the nicey things it says, it does have errors and is misleading. Whoever the words came from, they were delivered in such a clever way where unless a person uses keen discernment, he isn't likely to see how the course is misleading. This is especially so if a person lacks the openness to thoroughly question the course. I have found that some people become so psychologically and emotionally caught up in it that they lack the freedom of mind to question it in a thorough way. They would much rather throw rocks at a person such as myself. I have received several messages that stated that the course has a malevolent source.

Regarding Helen Schuchman, she was very anti-spirituality when she started to receive the words. She didn't want to continue to do so but the spirit who fed her the words forced her to receive them (it wouldn't allow her to sleep until she took notes). Also, William Thetford, a man who worked as a mind control specialist for the CIA, talked her into continuing to take notes. I find it hard to believe that the spirit of Christ would choose a lady with a strong distaste for spirituality to be his messenger. It also seems hard for me to believe that Jesus would select a lady who has a strong association with a CIA mind control specialist.

Helen Schuchman ended up in a dark, angry and depressive state of mind. She referred to ACIM as that damn course. I find it hard to believe that a lady who supposedly received messages from Jesus for years would end up in such a state. Going by my experience such contact has opposite results. My ability to open up to divine love has improved significantly.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Volu
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 468
Right here and right there
Re: My Feelings on the Condemnation of AL Sources
Reply #29 - Apr 13th, 2011 at 3:31pm
 
Recoverer,
"My ability to open up to divine love has improved significantly."

What does your guide think of your crusade? - Though we're on quite different paths it seems that we share a lesson about not overstepping the bounds of respecting others' beliefs. I very much agree that silence isn't the way to go, and really do appreciate honesty, but there's something about pushing the edge way too hard and sounding like a broken record, though you seem to have a good heart. Having good intentions doesn't mean the process or the end result will resemble the intentions started out with.
Back to top
 

Vegetarian is an old indian word for bad hunter.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 ... 8
Send Topic Print


This is a Peer Moderated Forum. You can report Posting Guideline violations.