Conversation Board - Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!

Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #30 - Mar 31^st, 2011 at 5:19am

DocM wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 12:03am:

Ok, so we go from Bible bashing to UFOs at the Royal wedding? Odd bedfellows, this conversation.

Seraphis, might it not be that you are operating from a set of belief systems that is "anti-Bible," even judging by the title of your thread? Your premise at the start appears to be that those who revere the good book only due so literally, reading word for word as if there is no other truth, believing that the scriptures were written by the hand of God himself, instead of men.

Yet Judeo-Christian scholars who study the two testaments and the communities who investigate biblical thought do not promulgate or agree with your basic premises. So from the get go, most sources believe that the two testaments were synthesized works written and compiled by men, which contained great truths within them (along with a chronicle of man's covenant with God).

In many circles, Jews and Christians gather to debate the meaning of the passages, constantly reinterpreting the ancient texts to gain further insight into the human spirit. In Judaism this has taken the form of Talmudic study and debate. If all believed as your premise stated (that the Bible was the word of God alone), then surely Talmudic scholars would not get together over the years to debate and interpret these texts.

But debate and reinterpretation is exactly what is occuring over the centuries. The Vatican and other religious christian organizations have their equivlent to Talmudic Judaism. This makes the followers of both testaments not a stagnant group of people, but a vibrant and ever evolving group - not tied to the dictates of the Bible with chains, but able to learn from the allegories in it and continually debate the significance of these stories.

I hope you can see why even the title of your thread might thus be seen by Jews and Christians as offensive. You start with an assumption that all followers are fundamentalists (a gross misrepresentation), and then you proceed to cast doubt on the very existence of the Bible as a text of stories, and the reality of Jesus and the crucifixation itself.

While the flaws in your arguments are obvious to anyone who hears both sides, one must also ask "what exactly are you trying to accomplish?" To prove that Jesus never existed and was not crucified? - This is surely going to offend more than settle anything.

The premise behind the two testaments; to love thy neighbor as thyself, and to love God, are synonymous with the basic underpinnings of every peace loving religion or ideology, including New Age thought, and ideas brought back from experiences from Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen and TMI. Are you not clearly aware of that?

Matthew

The problem is that very few people have your mindset on the issue... at the point the so called Christian leadership gained state power they began murdering non-believers... 40,000 Kathars was a drop in the bucket compared to the milliions of pagans wiped out and the hundreds of thousands of so called heretics, murdered and tortured in the inquistion... down to today's murder of abortion doctors, and the disrespect of our service men's funerals by Westboro baptists... the intimidation of Air Force Academy Cadets by Haggard's evangelicals in the '60's and '70's.

We are in a never ending battle with the Christian community in this country to prevent them from establishing Christianity as a State religion... if and when that does happen... I think even you will be very upset... the price of liberty is eternal vigilance against all vicious fanatics.

Again you are not acknowledging that I have not introduced these issues on my personal bais but the research of reputable scholars... the UFO thing was from an English Air Force officer's article... h also said that UFO's are now being scene over the Libyian airspace...

S.

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Seraphis1 Super Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 1446	Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible! Reply #31 - Mar 31^st, 2011 at 5:23am By the way, the Monroe Institute was picketed at one point by a local Baptist Church in Charlotteville as the work of the devil.. S.
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juditha

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #32 - Mar 31^st, 2011 at 6:23pm

hi i beleive in the bible what it says about demons,i beleive they really exist,jesus cast out many demons,if satan does not exist,why is he mentioned

all through the years there have been exorcisims because of satan and demons

i always ask God for his protection of love and light

love and God bless love juditha

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Terethian

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #33 - Apr 1^st, 2011 at 7:49am

Too much time has passed in which humans have kept insufficient records and insufficient recording devices. (I.E. video camera verification etc.)

Unless you can create a backwards time machine and psychically return to the past to witness all of the original writers of the bible and or witness said events, the bible must always be considered a book that is in almost every way unverifiable.

There is no way to constitute or establish any "truth" about the Bible since there is not enough scientific data to process and test in a laboratory environment.

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Lucy

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #34 - Apr 1^st, 2011 at 5:24pm

Quote:

We are in a never ending battle with the Christian community in this country to prevent them from establishing Christianity as a State religion... if and when that does happen... I think even you will be very upset... the price of liberty is eternal vigilance against all vicious fanatics.

Well the Christian community is not one entity, though it is surprising that the fundamentalist types have established such a foothold in these times. I'm not so sure Christianity was interpreted quite the same way in the 1700's or so, when the country got started. Freedom of religion mixed with freedom of speech are sometimes explosive.

I was searching for some info on the real Nat Turner one time, and came across some information indicating that around 1800, close to the time Turner was born, I think, there was a BAptist preacher in Virginia who was strongly against slavery on religious grounds. The point was made that it was the strongly held belief in freedom of speech that enabled the debate on slavery to be carried out. Slavery was not a new human phenomenon but having the institution co-exist with an active debate on its legitimacy was. The price of liberty is having to allow all this open discussion to go on. I bet that baptist preacher back in 1800 had an ornery side, but that ornery-ness probably served to keep driving the discussion forward.

That is true even here. I just wish the concepts could be argued. It ends up being done in a way that makes it feel unsafe to some people to discuss their personal experiences because they might be criticized as falling sway to some teacher who is unpopular with another board member or having an experience that is not in line with someone else's guidance. Those arguments start to sound narrow, like all fundamentalist arguments.

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Rondele

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #35 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am

<<We are in a never ending battle with the Christian community in this country to prevent them from establishing Christianity as a State religion... if and when that does happen... I think even you will be very upset... the price of liberty is eternal vigilance against all vicious fanatics. >>

Seraphis-

Perhaps you could be a bit more specific. Which Christian community is attempting to establish Christianity as a State religion? If this allegation is true, all I can say is that they are not making much progress.

You should be far more worried about radical Islam. Now that represents an infinitely more dangerous movement than Christianity.

Those folks slaughter people who oppose Islam. Just read today's headlines.

And if you dare even insult them, they will kill you. Look up Theo van Gogh sometime. And there are many more examples of Muslim violence in the name of their "religion." Publishing a mere cartoon about Muslims puts your life in danger. How about burying a woman up to her head and stoning her to death because she committed adultery? Do Christians do that??

Examples of that fanaticism abound in this country as well. A Muslim television executive in Buffalo beheaded his wife because she dared file for divorce. A Muslim father killed his daughter because she wanted to leave the religion. And on and on and on it goes.

It's fascinating how Christians are such an easy and safe target. I guess it's politically correct to bash them, but at the same time to be silent in the face of Muslim atrocities.

So....when you say "vicious fanatics", I'm curious as to why you are silent about who the real fanatics are?

What are your comments about Muslims attempting to impose Shariah law on the court systems of both the UK and the U.S.? Is that ok with you?

I'll take my chances with Christianity any day of the week over the killing agenda of radical Islam.

R

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #36 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 11:57am

rondele wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am:

<<We are in a never ending battle with the Christian community in this country to prevent them from establishing Christianity as a State religion... if and when that does happen... I think even you will be very upset... the price of liberty is eternal vigilance against all vicious fanatics. >>

Seraphis-

Perhaps you could be a bit more specific. Which Christian community is attempting to establish Christianity as a State religion? If this allegation is true, all I can say is that they are not making much progress.

Hi Rondele: The Evangelical community… but, my postings on this issue got far from the original intent… which was to highlight the inner Christian theological schools were beginning to talk openly about the problems with the Bible and the idea that one had to take it literally… actually, the closest we came to a Christian take over of the American government and the establishment of a State religion was in the Nixon era… but, they were beaten back and tho… the Haggard group in Colorado (Haggard turned out to be a closeted homosexual… LOL!!)… almost made the Air Force Academy a Christian enclave rent : Constantine’s Sword the documentary.

Don’t forget no Republican politician can win a primary unless he passes the creationism test… he/she must swear that he does not believe in Evolution and that he believe in Creationism/Intelligent design… so that is a fact of life in the American Republican party.

S.

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Seraphis1

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #37 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 12:14pm

rondele wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am:

You should be far more worried about radical Islam. Now that represents an infinitely more dangerous movement than Christianity.

Those folks slaughter people who oppose Islam. Just read today's headlines.

And if you dare even insult them, they will kill you. Look up Theo van Gogh sometime. And there are many more examples of Muslim violence in the name of their "religion." Publishing a mere cartoon about Muslims puts your life in danger. How about burying a woman up to her head and stoning her to death because she committed adultery? Do Christians do that??

Hi R: This is true on the surface… Islam is where Christianity was during the 30 years war that changed the way Christian sects related to one another. But, the current unrest in the Middle east is a sign they are headed toward ‘democarcy’… the arab street through the internet and modern communication is showing the arab street there is another way to live… but this evolution of their consciousness will take probably another 100 years to penetrate… [/quote]

rondele wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am:

Examples of that fanaticism abound in this country as well. A Muslim television executive in Buffalo beheaded his wife because she dared file for divorce. A Muslim father killed his daughter because she wanted to leave the religion. And on and on and on it goes.

These are case by case issues in a class with Christian abortion fanatics who murder Doctors. They are hardly endemic. They are taken care of by law enforcement.

[/quote]

rondele wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am:

It's fascinating how Christians are such an easy and safe target. I guess it's politically correct to bash them, but at the same time to be silent in the face of Muslim atrocities.

So....when you say "vicious fanatics", I'm curious as to why you are silent about who the real fanatics are?

It wasn’t the subject of my thread… my subject was originally the awakening and dissemination in the Christian community of sound research by their own researchers the truth about the Bible as a literal document.

rondele wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 10:41am:

What are your comments about Muslims attempting to impose Shariah law on the court systems of both the UK and the U.S.? Is that ok with you?

I'll take my chances with Christianity any day of the week over the killing agenda of radical Islam.

R

In America Shariah law is impossible to impose… we have two legislative bodies which must vote yes and then it has to be signed into law by the President… then it must pass the court challenges and ultimately be ruled upon by the Supreme Court. There is nothing in Sharia law that I know of that could past the test of Constitutional compatibility so all that right wing screaming about Sharia law in America is a political demagoguery to attempt to scare idiots into voting republican.

S.

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recoverer

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #38 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 2:21pm

I believe it is true that Republican leaders who did things such as start unnecessary wars, torture people, and lie to the citizens of the United States, were supported by Christian groups who seem to believe that not allowing people to believe in evolution and not supporting gay marriage is more important than the afforementioned issues. This being the case, quite understandibly many people get upset with parts of Christianity.

George W and company have caused so much negativitiy in this world, yet some people will say he's a good Christian. Phltt!

Perhaps if more people weren't afraid to question the Bible, fewer people would put creationism and the non-support of gay marriage before more important issues.

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DocM

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #39 - Apr 2^nd, 2011 at 3:53pm

I like that old Don McLean song :"American Pie"

Listen to it if you never have..........

"Did you write the book of love, and do you have faith in God above, if the Bible tells you so?"

"Now do you believe in rock and roll and can music save your mortal soul, and can ya teach me how to dance real slow?"

And the chorus

"So bye, bye Miss American pie,
Drove my chevy to the levy, but the levy was dry.
"Them good ol' boys was drinking whiskey and rye, singing this will be the the day that I die....."

M

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Pat E.

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Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible!
Reply #40 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 1:47am

Matthew, one of the all time great songs with lyrics that spoke to a heartbroken generation yet held mysteries aplenty. Thanks for bringing it to mind again. More:

Oh, and there we were all in one place,
A generation lost in space
With no time left to start again.
So come on: jack be nimble, jack be quick!
Jack flash sat on a candlestick
Cause fire is the devil’s only friend.

Oh, and as I watched him on the stage
My hands were clenched in fists of rage.
No angel born in hell
Could break that satan’s spell.
And as the flames climbed high into the night
To light the sacrificial rite,
I saw satan laughing with delight
The day the music died

He was singing,
"bye-bye, miss american pie."
Drove my chevy to the levee,
But the levee was dry.
Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
And singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
"this’ll be the day that I die."

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Pat E. Full Member Offline Posts: 207 Northern California Gender:	Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible! Reply #41 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 1:50am http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr-BYVeCv6U&feature=related
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Beau Super Member Offline Posts: 1176 Greenville SC Gender:	Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible! Reply #42 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 9:46am It is a great song allowing us to relive the Buddy Holley metaphor over and over again. Love it!
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Rondele Ex Member	Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible! Reply #43 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 2:03pm Don't know if this song is about the afterlife, but it sure seems to be. Maybe the "clear day" is the day we die? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz5DLO8fclA R
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Volu Senior Member Offline Posts: 468 Right here and right there	Re: Re:Finally the truth about the Bible! Reply #44 - Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 4:15pm Rondele, Cheers for the tune. Really, really nice lyrics!
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