DocM wrote on Mar 21^st, 2011 at 11:51am:


Hi Matthew,

I have thought along the above lines alot recently.  I have always noticed a disjunct between the academic lesson and the practical application, and just how will pondering, discussing and choosing to live through love prepare us for the ultimate test.  While I have yet to be tested "I like to think that if I was I would pass" (sorry, a line from a song by the mighty mighty boss tones).  My grief for deceased inlaws was real although I sensed a strong and pervasive feeling of the natural physical cycle..."it was their time", (and indeed it was) kept rolling through my mind and brought me back from the brink of despair.  I am extremely close to both my parents and I hope my equanimity experienced with the inlaws finds a correlation with their ultimate passing...for some reason I sense that it will (although I am in no hurry to test my senses). 

As for an easier transition through love, naturally I have no true sense of what to expect, but if I have any say at all, and I think I do, I choose to step from my dead body into my disincarnate existence looking forward to a sense of love the like of which we cannot even imagine while incarnate, to see those I love who've passed before me and to instantly know all is well with them, to instantly have all the answers for which I had questions while incarnate, and to feel the wondrous sense of being an eternal, limitless soul no longer encumbered with a physical body.  (Once as a child and once during meditation I had extremely clear visions of pure love for and from everything and everyone, limitless understanding and knowledge, and surprisingly, absolute and instantaneous speed(!?...I don't know, but it felt important to say)).  To me that is heaven and the afterlife, and thinking and being lovingly toward others cannot but make that transition easier.  With looking forward through love, any thoughts of fear diminish and go away...I love them, I do not fear their departure as I will see them all again.  (Funny, my guidance just chimed in "...and all too soon!"; these guys keep me thinking its all such a wonderful game and I am doing my best to believe them.)   

 

Bardo wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 2:53pm:


I'm sorry...I didn't mean I am looking forward to going anytime soon...I also have young children and I cherish all the time I have with them.  However if tragedy were to strike and I lose an opportunity to experience humanity and the earth with them...I will still have the love and connection with them in the afterlife.  In the event of a human fear-inducing loss, my goal is to focus on the perspective to be gained from the spiritual side, the love and the understanding of a purpose behind those events.  My intent is to not fear the human repercussions as they are a part of the game...with love, it will work.

rondele wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2011 at 12:07pm:


Very much agree.  Yet, PUL is something we primarily experience and perceive via our emotions and feelings.  Without that kind of experience and perception, PUL doesn't have much impact and wouldn't seem all that important of an ideal.

Quote:



  While i could agree that such attunement to and livingness of PUL is extremely, extremely rare in it's truly "pure" expression amongst humans, i'm aware of at least one human who very much did eventually live such a life that you so strongly and absolutely deny is possible for "any" human. 

  Now, if he could do it, why can't we?  We can, and if we are to get anywhere with this, first an openness to the possibility must be there.  Beliefs can have a strong influence. 

Hi All: I am sorry to burst your bubbles, but, something had to be said to at least put into the discussion something that comes closer to the truth.

There is no individuality outside your own personal belief system constructs. If you eventually realize yourself...i.e... become one with the Eternal Self... you will discover that Oneness is everywhere all at once and there is no individuality... but, then that is the Absolute in altitude and takes quite a lot of spiritual evolution to experience it... but, it is intellectually graspable... just some food for thought... lads and lass... 

S.

Seraphis:

I have to say, I disagree with you so much about the below. I used to be into nondual teachings (which includes Advaita Vedanta and Chan Buddhism), and such teachings are really into this nihilistic no-self business.

Eventually I reached the point where I allowed myself to "seriously" question what the so-called ego lacking enlightened people have to say, and found that they are wrong.

God, the Creator, Source Being, whatever name you prefer, found a way to use the creative aspect of his being so many souls that have a substantial reality can exist.

I once had this experience while pondering what it means to be "One Self." Suddenly I found myself walking down a city street (non-physically). I was very happy and excited because I understood that everything is one self. I walked up to strangers and hugged them and they hugged me back, because they too understood that everything is one self. Then I hugged my mother and we didn't experience each other as one self, because our mother/son ideas prevented us from doing so. Then I hugged a lady I found physically attractive (she also found me attractive) and we couldn't experience each other as one self, because we viewed each other according to sex-based concepts.

It isn't our sense of self that keeps us separate from each other, it is our self-centered viewpoints that do so.  If it wasn't for the fact that each of us exists in a "very" substantial way we couldn't share love in a substantial way, because there wouldn't be anybody to share it.

The goal is to develop ourselves and find what is possible, rather than negating ourselves. Eventually we become souls who know how to make use of the knowledge we've gained in a very wise and loving way.

Going by what I've experienced and figured out we are headed for a state of being where we are one and many at the same time.

An added note, one might ask one self why so many supposed "I" lacking people have allowed themselves to be treated in a worshipful way?

I've feel so blessed to be free of the no-self "belief system" I used to be caught up in. I now know that my individuality is a precious gift that won't prevent me from experiencing love and oneness with others. We'll wholeheartedly share our precious gifts with each other.

P.S. It isn't a matter of some illusory thoughts forming the illusion of an individual until the thoughts along with the individual dissapear. Rather,  belief system constructs belong to entities (souls) that have a definite existence. Some entities find a way to believe that they don't exist. Of course they couldn't have such a belief if they didn't exist.



Seraphis1 wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2011 at 3:09pm:

Seraphis:

Put it this way. You share a day with a friend you really love. Is there a conscious being beyond illusion that you share love with? Does this being's happiness, welfare and existence matter?

If our individuality is just an illusion, then what happens when all of our illusions come to an end? Does just one being exist all by its lonesome for the rest of eternity? Do many beings, perhaps an infinite number, lose the gift of existence?

It is important to understand that having an understanding of our uniqueness doesn't prevent us from sharing love and oneness with each other.

The love-based wisdom that each of us eventually gains is what enables us to truly love each other and knock down the bounderies that make us seem separate.  Beings who are nothing more than mere illusions couldn't have such a wonderful and meaningful ability.

If the love we experience and share is substantial, then perhaps we are substantial.

It is important to listen to our hearts when trying to figure this sort of thing out, rather than a supposedly sophisticated way of thinking.

It is also important to remember that sometimes we experience according to what we believe. We can even experience ourselves in a way where it seems as if we are non-existent as an individual. When this is the case we don't allow ourselves to use the part of our being that enables us to understand that we do exist as individuals.

Understanding that we are one with others doesn't mean we have to disappear to the extent some people believe is necessary.

Despite what some people say, it isn't noble to want to negate ourselves. Rather, it is noble to have the courage and fortitude to work on ourselves so we can live according to a more positive way of being. I know people that try to negate themselves rather than improve themselves. Sometimes they take such an approach because they don't want to look at themselves honestly and they don't want to put in the effort that is required if one wants to grow. Eventually they'll have to deal with the fact that they can't get away from themselves, no matter what some so-called sage claims.

I am of the opinion that we can and do experience a unique or individual perspective while we grow in spirit.  I don't believe that we dissolve into a great mind, like a drop of water in the ocean, never to perceive again.

Seraphis mentions a man named Hawkins who was "self-realized" (i.e. Buddha on earth?).  First off, it always stuck me that those who are highly evolved in love or spirit would rarely claim to be so - but I digress.

That  person, the man who has attained buddahood or christ-realization, is still, while incarnate, a man.  He can state Descartes' great line "cogito ergo sum,"  (I think therefore I am), and it would apply to him no less than to myself.  If you asked him how he  felt, he should be able to answer; if you asked him whether the tragedies of the world were keenly felt, he would likely still say "yes."

Emanuel Swedenborg spoke with deceased human beings who had ascended to some of the "higher" levels of heaven.  They spoke of acting out of love and selflessness.  Following the two main tenets of spirituality (love of God and love of others).   Yet it seemed, from the description of Swedenborg and many other mystics that these "individuals" persisted in their individuality as they moved on in heaven.  They had tasks to do, and indeed a type of service and spiritual path.  Heaven was not a static place.

I originally started this thread while thinking about loss, and wondering how many of us could, at any moment be ripped away from our lives in the earth plane and accept our fates to move on?  How many of us would grieve, rage against the situation, or try to come back (via reincarnation, haunting/getting stuck, etc.)?  It is an unknown to me.  I only know that now is not yet my time.  I found it quite humbling, when, with some soul searching it seemed that I was more attached to the earth plane than I thought I would be. 

Volu is correct in assuming that sometimes if we think we "get" the spiritual message about love, there is a certain smugness about it, and an inner confidence that we are then safe and on the right path.  If we make changes in our lives based on acting more lovingly,  it can't help but move us in a good direction.  But many of us still may be caught up in the ego-centric activities and thoughts that go along with our earthly lives.  Although pure selfishness is easy to spot, subtle ego-driven mind sets and belief systems are not always obvious.

Must we give up on our individual perspective to move on?  I would say, (imho) "no."  But when we do realize we are dead, we must let go of certain earthly attachments.  We can still love those we love, but we must then adapt.  Contemplating this great change that awaits us all was a bit overwhelming.

Matthew

Lucy wrote on Mar 24^th, 2011 at 2:00am:


Hi Lucy: This is why The Tibetan Book of the Dead is such an important document and why you should clearly understant the first Bardo which you will encounter at the moment of death:

paraphased: At the moment of death you will have the time it takes to drink a cup of tea to accept the first bardo... which leads to freedom from the Wheel

S.