Hi!
I wonder how long it usually takes for anyone to go from just being physical and doing imaginations of retrievals (at best in Focus 10), to actually OBE/AP into these settings in full Technicolor and being non-physical present There, in Focus 23?

My lousy imaginations/impression retrievals, with very few inputs of emotions and almost no visual input, are probably to weak to do any difficult retrievals. So I would like to know when the shift takes place, if at all?

Are there people that never makes a full OBE into Focus 23, and just continue with Focus 10 retrievals/imaginations, year after year?

Both the quality of images and what I perceive is equally important. It's important to be There too. Right now I only get non-visual impressions, and I'm quite well rooted in the physical too.

I've read all Moen's books, but it I could qualify for a re-read.

We are beings who are so accustomed and well-adapted to multitasking our attention on many things at the same time that we rarely notice how little attention it actually takes to do something.  Whether it's driving, eating, watching TV, reading, working, walking, talking....you name it, and we can be doing it while also thinking about and doing other things.

Remember what it's like to have a great conversation with someone where you're both looking into each other's eyes, so engaged in that person and what they are saying, feeling, and thinking?  There's a strong connection that takes place when that happens.  When you really focus your attention on something, it's a much more real experience and you get more out of it. 

I'm beginning to take notice of how focused I am just doing everyday things, so I can get a feeling of remembering what it actually feels like to be strongly focused in the moment.  It's a whole different experience than when you're doing, thinking, or feeling other things at the same time. 

So imagine how difficult it is to focus that intensely while doing meditation, retrieval, and other nonphysical activity.  That's why daily practice is good, and why hemi-sync is such a helpful tool.  Learning to focus your attention and hold it there while balancing both sides of the brain are all it really takes to do the kind of intensity focus you're describing.  The kinds of psychic perception talked about in this thread are indeed amazing and useful abilities to have, and ones we all really do have.  But I've learned it's not necessary to first learn to have those abilities in order to then learn to have the types of intense-focus high-caliber experiences you're talking about.

Bruce and I have recently been talking a lot about this kind of thing and one thing I recently asked him was, "What exactly IS my awareness anyway?"  And he said that your awareness is everywhere, all at once, all the time.  And that what we normally think of as being our awareness is really just our focus of attention at any given moment.  True awareness is everywhere, and in order to experience anything we just focus our attention on it.  The more we focus, the more we shift, or phase, to that area of consciousness.  It starts with intention.  Intention is all it takes to put you There, whether you are aware of being there or not. 

The more you phase there, the more real it becomes to your senses of perception.  A very slight shift of phasing is what you're calling "imagination" type, and a more full shift of phasing is what you're calling OBE/AP type of experience.  It's not so much a matter of ability, capability, or experience, but is rather just a matter of your ability to focus your attention enough to the point of shifting more and more of your attention there.  The result is the effect of phasing your attention there so intently that it creates the OBE type of perception.

Of course, it's much more pleasurable an experience to really feel like you're there, and to really see, hear, smell, etc. as if it is a real physical experience.  However, even with little of that effect happening, you're still There and likely still perceiving some things, even if you are not completely aware that you are there perceiving nor aware of what you are perceiving.  Practicing the tools and techniques of what you know will eventually give you the type of experience you're seeking, and of course the more experience and validation you get, the easier it will become. 

Another important thing I recently learned or should I say "re-learned" (as I tend to ask the same types of questions of Bruce more than once!) is when I told Bruce that I am having trouble nonphysically tuning in and perceiving anything when I set out on an intention.  I try and try and try but I don't perceive anything.  "Why is that and what do I do about it?" I asked.  He said, "You're never actually NOT perceiving anything.  You're always perceiving something, it's just a matter of what you're aware of perceiving.  If you go into it with expectations of what you should be perceiving and what that should be like, then you will probably not be aware of what there is to perceive and you'll feel like you got nothing." 

He said to remember to follow my intention, then to go along with whatever I perceive in my awareness after that.  Just the act of making the intention has already placed me where I need to be in order to act on my intention.  The rest is a matter of trusting the process. 

I used to think that the trust part meant "being willing" or something like that.  But it's more of a letting go type of thing.  Like if someone were to tell you to relax, and you already think you are relaxed.  And they said, "No, really really relax."  That shift is like going from holding on tight to just letting go.  So the trust part is very much like that, and I think it does take practice and patience.  There are still lots of times when I get frustrated and feel like I'm not getting anything, and then there are those rare occasions where I just "let go" and automatically shift (phase) to where my intention took me in my awareness, and in a matter of a single moment I can suddenly no longer be aware that I'm physically sitting in a chair.  The effect of phasing can be so complete in so quick of a moment that you literally forget what you were doing just a moment ago.  The experience can be that real, that easily. 

So I'm still working hard at learning that technique myself.  All I know is that it works, though I'm not skilled at it yet.  But I do understand and trust the dynamics of it and I hope that how I'm describing it to you helps you too. 

Vicky

Good post, Vicky!

In addition to the "focus"- part I'd like to mention something I came across at a lucid dreaming website, I think it was the one of Stephen LaBerge, where it was pointed at the fact that of most of the time we "are here", functioning in the physical, we just can't remember (under normal conditions) what we'd done and what has been, or only very weakly. Only of those events which were extraordinary, when we were enthusiastic, present, emotional, we have a vivid memory of. So, being aware of this, we could actually state most of our life in the physcal is like a dream.

This makes me think of the Zen rule, to be fully in the here and now. Interestingly, it is the same rule as the one for having lucid dreams, or generally for focused awareness.

Now, it seems some are more, some less talented in making their focus of attention laser-like, so that they're focused only at a specific area.

From reading at different forums regarding OBEs/AP it seems to me if one isn't a natural, it's really difficult to achieve this ability through training. Not impossible though, I guess.

For me, it's difficult, I'm working on it. I've had a few OBEs and lucid dreams, so I know it's real (even more than real), but they were involuntary. What I did was phasing with a focus-overlay: I always was, to a more or less degree, aware of my physical body, and so I never felt totally "within" that nonphysical scene which I perceived; it's similar to daydreaming, but things happened there which actually are totally untypical for normal daydreaming. I have found details in these kind of phasing-trips which matched with details I later found in books written by full-OBEers. Some of those phasing-trips were very emotional and had a deep impact on me, despite their perceptional daydream-quality.

However, such partial phasings are often subject to doubt. It's just, they don't come over real enough, that's why many try to train their abilities of focusing into other areas of consciousness. There are different ways of doing so, all laid out broadly in the web. I guess everyone has to find the method which fits personally best.

Spooky

Hi Spooky,

Thank you! 

Yes, life does seem like one big daydream sometimes doesn't it.  I remember as a child being "out there" so often that my real life wasn't quite as real to me, but you know how grown-ups are, always trying to make you stay focused in the here and now.  It took me many years to remember how to phase out as a I grew older. 

I know that I have a lot more experience with OBEs than some people, like you.  But I still believe that it's not really that hard to learn to have them.  And I still fully believe everyone IS having them, but it's just a matter of learning to retain the memory of them. 

I really believe in what I've experienced and learned, and I am so inspired to finding out the best way to write about it to teach others who are where I've come from.  I guess you can say I'm just extremely passionate about it. 

You said <<Some of those phasing-trips were very emotional and had a deep impact on me, despite their perceptional daydream-quality. >>

And I still have those a lot of the time, and yes they are harder to want to believe in, but I believe in trusting the emotional/spiritual aspect more so than the perceptual quality.  The intense perceptual quality is quite a rush, but doesn't make it literally more real, just "feeling" more real. 

Vicky

It all boils down to what are you trying to do! 

S.

Hey Spooky,

I've had that "awakening" feeling during an OBE.  Sometimes when I am in an OBE that I believe is physical reality but then realize it's an OBE, upon realization is when my perception becomes greater, in a bigger picture sort of way.  I feel more aware, more alive, and lighter.  Everything changes into what seems like just light and energy, but interestingly still looks like the physical. 

So those "higher" OBEs are something I wish I could make happen, but as yet I can't seem to.  I just keep setting intent and wait patiently hoping for another one.

Hi Vicky,
yes, in one OBE I actually believed it was the physical, which was quite scary at the beginning, as I had no memory of how I got to this place. And once in a dream my visual perception became such sharp, precise, it was overwhelming. Jurgen Ziewe has a lot of reports of his OBEs with this enhanced perception in his book "Multidimensional Man", it's a real good read.
   I have started to again pay more attention to my dreams, and today I wrote some of them down, and then I remembered another brief dream episode, I stood at my kitchen table, and began to wonder why the left side of the table was clear, as there had to be a stack of papers. I looked again, and it just was my kitchen table, no papers. So I thought, well, hm, so I must have cleaned it up. Ha ha! I've been so close to wake up within this dream, but then I surrendered when facing that "real" blank kitchen table.

True, Bardo, it's something which is just too fascinating and promising to forget about it!

Spooky