On another thread, James Ward referrred to F.W.H. Myers (if I remember correctly, Alan also did so in the past).

Geraldine Cummins received information through automatic writing, I've found that information received through automatic writing can be a mixed bag of tricks, but much of what Geraldine received sounds correct (I spent the past hour reading it). Some of it matches with what Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen have found. Below are a few things that stand out to me, they match what I have found to be true, and have written about on my site.

http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/cummins/cummins1.html

On the lower rungs of this ladder of consciousness dwell those souls who still cling to human habits of thought, to the earthly personality, to their own individual line of thought. On earth some of them have been extremely learned. But knowledge does not make a wise man. A great Indian Yogi, a Chinese sage, a learned or holy Christian father may dwell for aeons of time within the Third and Fourth Super-terrestrial States. They are typical representatives of Soul-man, and they have his short-comings. They cling to the line of thought which was theirs on earth, and so they remain sadly individualized in it; they are caught in its dream, and are snared in the many errors thereof. For instance the Indian Yogi and the Chinese sage may still seek only to follow the aspiration of their particular religion or philosophy, the freeing of the soul from matter, ecstatic contemplation of the universe.

They appear to gain their aspiration; but in consequence they abide merely on one of the lower rungs of the ladder. They believe that they have attained to Nirvana, that they have passed out Yonder, entered into the Mystery of God. But they have done nothing of the kind; for they are still individualized, still clinging to their blissful little dream created when they were on earth. They are living in the stagnant pond. They are progressing neither up nor down. They have no contact with the material aspect of the universe, and their state of alleged ecstatic contemplation narrows and limits experience, confines them still in the prison of their own ego.

I remarked before that when souls reached to the higher rungs of the ladder they became merged in the unifying Spirit, and might at last journey out Yonder, enter into the Mystery of God. In so doing they slough form and no longer express themselves in an outward appearance. But those spirits who pass out Yonder do not dwell in ecstatic contemplation as does the sage or the Yogi, they are, though formless, in contact with the whole of the material universe: an incredible activity of a spiritual and intellectual kind is theirs. For now they share in the timeless Mystery; now they are in the true Nirvana, in the highest Christian Heaven; they know and experience the alpha and omega of the material universe. The chronicle of all planetary life, the history of the earth from the beginning to the end are theirs. Truly they are not merely heirs, they have become inheritors, in deed and in truth, of eternal life. You are, as you climb the long ladder of consciousness, a sum in arithmetic. When you pass out Yonder you become the Whole.

---

Chapter IX
OUT YONDER, TIMELESSNESS
THE SEVENTH PLANE
Part of the Divine Principle
AGAIN the choice must be made. Is the soul prepared to make the great leap, prepared to pass wholly from time into timelessness, from an existence in form into formlessness? This is the most difficult of all questions to answer. Only a very few reply in the affirmative when first faced with it.

The Seventh state might be described as the "passage from form into formlessness." But pray do not misunderstand the term "formlessness." I merely wish to indicate by it an existence that has no need to express itself in a shape, however tenuous, however fine. The soul who enters that Seventh state passes into the Beyond and becomes one with God.

This merging with the Idea, with the Great Source of spirit does not imply annihilation. You still exist as an individual. You are as a wave in the sea; and you have at last entered into Reality and cast from you all the illusions of appearances. But some intangible essence has been added to your spirit through its long habitation of matter, of ether the ancestor of matter, of what the scientists call empty space, though, if they but knew it, empty space is peopled with forms of an infinite fineness and variety.


---

Chapter X
THE UNIVERSE
THE Buddhist maintains that the Universe is unreal. It is unreal only so long as you are caught in its web, governed by its laws, controlled by its matter or by that invisible substance I have called an air of matter.

The term "unreal" implies falsehood, sham, humbug. The soul, when he manifests himself in form, is limited by that form. He cannot know truth because he is imprisoned in that shape. He has, during his life on those first five planes, a limited view. Like a horse, wearing blinkers, he has a very poor idea of the world about him. The essential unreality arises through this specialized view merely of a piece of the road before him. Further, the form lies in the picture of this road which it conveys to the soul. So the Buddhist is in one sense right when he claims that the Universe is unreal.

But when the sage claims that the ultimate goal is one of extinction within Nirvana--extinction though not annihil-ation--he is using dangerous terms. He claims that we are extinguished once we reach this state of grace, this World of the Absolute. He suggests, however, that at any rate we are existing in unconditioned being; we are entirely apart from the Universe, freed from its essential unreality.

Actually, only on the Seventh plane when we are one with the Supreme Idea do we realize the reality of the Universe. It is unreal so long as it imprisons soul and spirit. It is real once these are merged and freed from it, dwelling in the infinite liberty of Pure Intelligence.

Once that state is attained we perceive that old masterpiece, the Universe, as a Whole. We realize it in every microscopic detail, and in its greatest proportions. We perceive the Whole of it as an intellectual concept within the Supreme Idea. We perceive the part of it that is playing out its drama. And thus we exist as the seer and the lover, experiencing all that life as an act of thought. So we reach the zenith of experience. We know the reality of the material Universe, we are aware of the other reality, the Idea, which contains its duplicate from the beginning to the end as a thought. We cannot be said to be extinct. We are one in the great harmony of Mind, we are individual in the love of the Creator for His creation which is contained within him, which is manifested in part.

We receive from all those myriad spirits who control parts of the material universe the complete impression of it in its least, in its greatest aspects. Therefore we live as never before, we are caught in no Nirvanic swoon. And we join in that contemplation of the destruction of the present Universe, of the creation, life and extinction of other universes, and so on endlessly. We live in the intellectual concept of them all and we are aware of that part which now plays out its drama on the stage of eternity.

Try to realize the dual character of existence when you think of the word "Universe"; then it may be easier to understand the nature of life.

There are physical atoms and there are psychic units. The psychic unit develops as it dwells within and without the physical atoms, in the various stages of existence. The psychic unit dwells within the fantasy of ever finer and finer substance, gaining all the while. The psychic unit escapes from that substance, returns to its home in the Idea. But this escape does not mean annihilation. It is one now and yet many, just as the physical atoms of the human body are one and yet many.

Understand, therefore, that the Universe is only unreal so long as you dwell within its confining web, within form. It is real when you are free from it and are able from Out Yonder to survey it as a whole and to know it as an act of pure thought.

Balance:

Because nirvana is mentioned at the same time as highest Christian heaven, I don't believe they mean Christian heaven in a religious sense. If you read how the site describes such a heaven, it definitely has something else in mind.

It is important to factor in that this book was written sometime before 1963, so relevant audience factors had to be taken into consideration.

I've found that when it comes to the Eastern approach, self absorption rather than opening up to higher levels of being often result. Eastern teachings often fail to see that one and many can exist at the same time, and therefore it is okay to find that we have eternal souls. Eastern teachings tend to deny the validity and value of the creative aspect of being. Many gurus have presented themselves as if they are God himself, rather than just one of many little pieces that have been projected from God, the Creator, Source being, whatever name you use. Unfortunately, many of their followers treat them as if they are God.

I had this retrievel experience. I experienced the life of a lady who had a nihilistic way of viewing existence. Next I saw her and was stunned with what I felt in my heart chakra area, her state felt very empty and dark. Next her energy was connected to my energy and spirit energy cleansed her so she could move on to a higher level of being.

One time I had a short waking dream and I experienced myself walking over the second level of a freeway. Below on the lower level were many stuck souls, due to their belief in nihilistic teachings that denied the reality of the soul and the validity and importance of the creative aspect of being.

I don't know how much exposure you have to Eastern teachings, but they focus on the awareness aspect of being while denying the validity of the creative aspect. I really don't believe that the teachers of such teachings get it, despite how they present themselves.

Whether the site I provided a link for his flawless, I don't know, I haven't read all of it. Nevertheless, as is obvious, I believe it knows what it is talking about when it comes to the words I provided above.

  To Balance:  Sounds to me like this source is speaking of belief system blocks, over attachments, etc. 

This is found amongst people of all faiths and belief systems.  What i would disagree with this source about, is overly generalizing a particular mode or type as it did with "Yogis" and "Chinese Sages".... but if you read further, as the below quote shows, this source also addressed other faiths like Christian and Buddhist when it came to belief system blocks and over attachments. 

"For instance, a fanatical Buddhist or a very devout Christian may be held within the groove of his earthly beliefs. For those other souls in his community are, perhaps, also, held in the chains of those particular ideas. So there he may remain, making no progress, in a thought or in a memory world which consists of the Christian or of the Buddhist dream. He is held fast in the tentacles of an octopus. This octopus is the earthly Christian or Buddhist idea of an After-life, their view of the universe as created when on earth."

  Sounds to me like the concept of "hollow heavens" that Bruce talks about, and make no mistake, there are plenty of once Buddhists, Yogis, as well as Christians and the like who are stuck in these limited "areas" of Consciousness which we could call Hollow Heavens.  Stuck by dogmatic adherence to a particular tradition and belief system.   For a Consciousness to fully merge with Source and become a full co-creator, among various things, it must become completely Universal in nature and not limited by any one organized belief system and line of thought.

The "Christian" this source is talking about in the earlier part, is that unto like Christ, freed of all belief system limitations, errors, etc. and lives purely from Spirit the Creative Source.   Personally, i've found out through guidance that the man known as Yeshua, is the only public teacher so far to fully and completely merge with Source during his physical life.

This has nothing to do with religious dogma when it comes to me, because i've never been "religious" and was raised without it, and never was heavy in one particular belief system at a time.  For a temporary time, i was somewhat over attached to Eastern thought and beliefs in the more general sense, but even then i had interests in other areas like psychic and channeled info, as well as a great drawn and respect for the Teacher Yeshua.

  This source is obviously very "metaphysical"  and experiential oriented, rather than religiously dogmatic in nature. 

  Besides echoing some of what Moen and Monroe describe, this source also echoes some of what Rosiland A. McKnight's Guidance also describe in her sessions and books.  Particularly the 7 main planes of Consciousness and the types and quality of consciousness that is consciously aware within those respective states (found more in her 2nd book).

  Like Recoverer, i've noticed a trend for a large percentage of Westerners into "spirituality" get overly attached to Eastern based or sourced belief systems and modes.  Also like Recoverer, i spent some time being somewhat stuck and limited by these myself. 

  If one has any need or attachment to call them self, this or that belief system label, chances are, they are missing the mark to some extent. 

  Supposedly Buddhism is about getting past this, but yet Buddhism contains plenty of dogma, over attachment to tradition, etc.   I've met some Buddhists overly attached to Buddhism. 

  Let's move past all of these belief system barriers, and live the life purely and then we will truly come to know what is more true or less true from a more expanded perspective.

It almost seems like not getting it completely right is part of the fun 

Part of me is really intrigued by examining different sources and approaches that offer significant insight or evidence regarding the nature of reality, and trying to see how they agree and disagree.  "Is there a common core here in these accounts?"  I guess it's not too surprising that we humans want to establish a reality that we can agree on -- we put a lot of energy into that in many ways, every day.  As social beings, we kind of depend on it, and very often when our agreement about reality breaks down, or comes into conflict with other peoples' different notions, the trouble begins again.

And yet over and over -- and especially when it comes to metaphysical matters -- we keep receiving accounts that are not entirely commensurate with each other.  ("Hey folks, couldn't you get your story straight before you started talking to us?")  From the old conflicts of the great religions and their sects and schools to information received through mediums, hypnotic regression, internal self-helpers, near-death experiencers, Hemisync contacts...

It makes me wonder if this state of affairs in itself is also giving us information.  Perhaps we are not outside the system in such a way that we can receive a complete map of it from beyond ourselves.  It could be interpreted as an invitation to realize that our living, creative contribution is an important ingredient of the whole, and that this contribution is not something to be set aside in order to conform to a perfect model of reality that was made without us (at least, as we know ourselves to be right now  ).

I'd better stop there and get some sleep!

James Ward

Pat, I had an interesting daydream-kind-of-thought a year ago or so, that when we are "younger" our environment is very structured and regular, and that we gradually experience greater degrees of freedom to shape our reality as we "mature." 

It felt quite new and intriguing at the time, but I guess the idea has been around in one way or another for a while.  (Mahayana Buddhism had an interesting speculation along these lines, that of the Buddha-land.  When Bodhisattvas got to the point that their becoming a Buddha was predicted by another Buddha - usually Sakyamuni, I guess - they would describe what the world they planned to make would be like:  what kind of terrain, what beings would be born there to make progress, and other features.  Curious that they would think in terms of being an embodied Buddha there and at the same time being the shaper of that world in which other beings would exist.  It made me wonder if these were "just stories" in sutras, or if there were practices associated with such accounts that were not maintained.  This trend in Buddhism became what is known as Pure Land today, which mostly focuses on the Buddha Amitabha and prayer to be reborn in his land of Sukhavati.  But for a while, not very diligently, I wondered if the idea could be applied to the place where we could possibly have some influence over shaping the environment other beings might be in, in our dreams.  Could we make our dreams a land of no-harm and happiness for the beings we encounter in them?)

Suffice to say, I'm certainly grateful for the environmental stability that we do have here! I guess it's kind of fuzzy -- our models are not universally consistent, but at the same time there are at least some fairly stable features that we can steer by -- while not capturing the absolute in our butterfly nets...

DocM,
I greatly appreciate your thoughtful and intelligent posts, as I do those of many of the others here. Not having been on this site for long, I don't have a real history of or with many of you, and unfortunately lack the time to go back and read too many older posts. So I apologize in adavance for asking questions that may have been covered long ago. How do you come by the ideas that you express (as above)? How much of your construct comes from your "direct" experiences in exploration, vs study and discussion with others? You seem to have a very detailed cosmology, and I am very curious as to how you (and the others here) have come by it. My own experiences only hint at a small granule of the things that you express, but that is not surprising. I guess a related question is, over time, and with the advent of the WWW, are our personal cosmologies becoming more similar? Are our expectations of what we will find as we press out, being shaped by what we hear from each other here? If there is an "objective" reality of the afterlife, then this is all good.  If, in fact, we do shape our own worlds "over there", are we "franchizing" a version based on our interactions here?

Heisenberg,

You ask how we can gravitate toward our true self into a hell, if our true nature is that of love? (to paraphrase).  My answer is simple; our consciousness has an "inner nature" where our true motivation comes from and an "outer nature" where our mask of civilization or "supergo" tells us what to do or how to act.  After death, the outer nature, which is heavily connected to being an incarnate being, falls away.  We no longer put on a front or pretend to be one way or another.  We communicate telepathically, so our thoughts are out in the open, like wearing your heart on your sleeve.  We choose to follow our primary motivation.

Now it may be true that our inner core-nature connects seamlessly to God, but we are all free to take it where we wish.  We can explore becoming more loving toward others (i.e. going Godward) or we can explore being self-centered or hateful.  This ability to choose or explore does not change our fundamental divine essence; each being has the potential to evolve toward love.  Yet some choose to go the other way.

See my take Heisenberg, is that this "illusion of separation" will only be shown to be an illusion when we learn the lessons of love, and we cultivate the garden of our mind with love.  The law of attraction is that like begets like.  This is only saying that corn seeds will give rise to corn; nettle seeds will grow nettle.  The negative, hateful or selfish thoughts change probabilities in our lives and then karma (as much a law as gravity is) comes into play. The sadist finds that he suffers in some way in direct relation to the pain he inflicts.  But he may stay in this loop if he doesn't see the connection or enjoys inflicting pain.

How long will a sadist play in the karmic field/hell of sadism?  Will they notice at some point that there is a give and take and decide at some point while in hell or incarnate on earth that there is another path?  I think at some point, all of us can experience this sort of grace.  For some, it may take centuries.  For others, like Howard Storm in his book Descent into Death, he had a NDE where he immediately awoke in a hellish realm, being tormented by others, but then had a realization that he wanted to be saved.  He feebly mumbled a prayer - but his desire was sincere.  He certainly had earned himself a place there by being hateful and spiteful toward others and selfish in his earthly life (up until that point).  Yet he was rescued  - to his point of view by Jesus - and lifted out of that realm.

Why was his hellish NDE so brief, while others might last for centuries?  It all has to do with where you choose to focus your conscious thought.  In my humble opinion, you have the same free will in all planes of consciousness, either on earth or in spirit.

So might the nature of all conscious beings ultimately be a loving manifestation of a God-consciousness in a pin point indivuality?  Yes.  But the "true nature" I described was the person's deeper inner thought and conviction at the time of death. 

This leads to the question of how much of our inner nature is fixed and how much can be changed.  I plan to start a thread on this, as I think it is really important. 

Matthew

  Some thoughts:

  It makes the picture a little more complex and hard to grasp when you realize that there are both relative and absolute sides to reality. 

  Have fun in the relative and in remembering the absolute, sure, and be accepting and tolerant of others and self while doing so, sure, but keep a light hold on the absolute at the same time or the dream turns into a bit of a nightmare.  Doesn't seem like much fun then, does it?

  Can a person "get it completely right"?  Sure they can, and at least one person did just that.   

  Is it important too?  Depends i guess, is Reality important to you? 

   All i know in my simplicity, is i want to be where he is in my consciousness and conscious awareness because it feels so right, so true, so real and so satisfying when i feel his waves of truth wash over me.  And because it feels so good--naturally i want to be part of the plan to facilitate others to feel that as well. 

   Somebody had to want to get it completely right, and more so believe it was possible and attainable, before they did so...didn't they?  Yup, so he nods and winks.
Had to focus completely on it for having been born in a world of distortion and funhouse mirror reflections---nothing short of focusing on it with ones whole being and it becoming one's central ideal would do. 

  And so, so many of us fall short because we lack that will, that commitment, that passion, that awareness.  Seems the above psychic source hints this as well when it talks about how so few have yet entered the 7th level or whatever they label it.

7x7=49, and right after 49 we go back to 1 but with that lovely self awareness.

  There is a one true faith after all, even after one has cut through all the belief system b.s., and it could be labeled PUL. 

  When one becomes PUL personified by letting self becoming a pure channel of and for same, then one gets it completely right.  Why, because then one has full and complete access to all info, all viewpoints, to a harmony one can't even begin to understand intellectually.  And there is a "complete rightness" even beyond that..when all remember and awaken this within.

  But yes, let's have fun on the journey to remembrance.  The more we remember truly, the more fun we have, and there is a direct proportion in that quite absolute but relatively applied universal equation. 

Which is why he is so full of joy, happiness and peace having gotten it completely right and waiting for and trying to help us along the way.

  Why limit self and others when we're limitless and infinite? 

Perhaps we should expect more...so much more than so many of us do?  Could it be so simple, so powerful that the more of us who fully awaken and transform self, the easier it becomes for all to do so?   

You have before you the most beautiful and fulfilling of dreams and you have a stark nightmare, and many, many, many relative shades of inbetween.   Why not go for the dream of dreams & merge with the undistorted reality?