i personally looked at a clock.

Here's a thought.

experience one yourself..using whatever evidence you need to suffice.

Have a productive evening.

Quote:

Sorry. I experienced one myself by paying attention to the clock near my bed.

When I "returned", I quickly looked at my clock (Was facing the other way) and the time was the same.

I was absolutely amazed. I wasn't aware of what happened at first, but the minute I tried washing the few dishes in my sink and I couldn't manipulate the knobs, it gave me a clue. 

Poor Jehova,

I emphasize with you, but posting this across numerous forums will not help. You will always have to believe what people tell you - or try experience something yourself.

I thought you have "spoken" to Cindy? At least you posted something along the lines in the TMI forums.

I hope you can find some purpose in life and some light even without 100% hard scientific proof, which is not available. Only a lot of hints - and that is something, isnt it?

Chrwe

Supermodel, that is really cool!  And speaking of proof, I wouldn't need anything more than that...what you saw and saw again in two different states of being ought to make anyone experiencing it believe it.  If not, well, then some choose not to believe anything...   

chrwe...your faith is refreshing! Your light is showing...

Thanks guys.

Vicky--that's pretty awesome about the sleep mask over your eyes. I wish I could OBE more often. Now that I KNOW what it is, I may try to have some fun with it this time!

It's late and my brain is contorting itself. Please bear with me. 

This is the closest thing I've seen so far:

"The VERITAS Research Program of the Laboratory for Advances in Consciousness and Health (formerly the Human Energy Systems Laboratory) in the Department of Psychology at the University of Arizona was created primarily to test the hypothesis that the consciousness (or personality or identity) of a person survives physical death." From the website.

Dr. Gary E. Schwartz founded this lab, if memory serves. He's authored a few books on the subject.

Another is IONS (The Institute of Noetic Sciences).

I think Consciousness Studies is the field that is trying to approach the general subject area from a scientific perspective. As far as I can tell it's still on the fringe.

As I understand things, and I'm not a scientist, science is five-sensory. Multisensory perception is beyond its domain and capabilities. Since there's a requirement that something (here an experience) be observable, repeatable and then subject to peer review, I don't think we'll get anywhere using the scientific method as our means and standard of proof. That science has made great progress for all of us in the physical domain is to be respected, but in modern times it has asserted itself as the arbiter of secular (or all) truth, or at least that's the status that people have given it. Such authority as it seems to extend to things beyond the five senses is, I think, beyond its mandate and no longer pure science as I understand it, but "scientism," a belief system in itself.

As we are dealing with experiences that are radically subjective, proof must be had on that basis, subjectively. Using your reason and through repeated experiences of the same kind, along with partnering with others whenever possible, should prove to you that your experiences are real (or not). This is empirical in the philosophical sense, if not strictly scientific, and is the best any of us can do for now.

From Wikipedia:

"In philosophy, empiricism is a theory of knowledge that asserts that knowledge arises from evidence gathered via sense experience. Empiricism is one of several competing views that predominate in the study of human knowledge, known as epistemology. Empiricism emphasizes the role of experience and evidence, especially sensory perception, in the formation of ideas, over the notion of innate ideas or tradition.

In a related sense, empiricism in the philosophy of science emphasizes those aspects of scientific knowledge that are closely related to evidence, especially as discovered in experiments. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world, rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation. Hence, science is considered to be methodologically empirical in nature."

Again, note the emphasis on sensory experience, which means five-sensory, not multisensory. If we substitute multisensory for five-sensory, then i think our approach through experience and observation is empirical. I think TMI and Bruce have proven that such experiences are repeatable. But for now our proof is subjective and inter-subjective, and that's the best we can expect.

Hope this helps! 

Rob

Jehovah, I've had five major hits so far.

One was when I saw the BST where (at least some) Islamic suicide bombers go when they die.  I described it as being rectangular, and longer than it was wide; and Berserk showed me an excerpt from a book by Emmanuel Swedenborg, from the 1700s, where he described it the same way.  This was the secret garden of paradise described by Marco Polo; the original hashashin, when drugged and woken there, believed they had died and gone to heaven, even while still alive, and that BST developed as a result.  As a result of this, and another experience involving a prayer to Allah, I have been reconciled with Islam, although I am still not Muslim.

The second was when I went to the individualised BST that was inhabited by the spirit of Jay Van Andel, one of the late co-founders of the Amway Corporation.  I had not seen a recent photo of Van Andel prior to the dream, and was able to verify his appearance via a Google search, after I woke up.



The third was when I performed an open-handed evocation of the archangel Raphael, and described him as having been around 12 feet tall.  This was corroborated by a fellow magician who had seen him as having that height, and was also partly verified by Google artwork as well.  Raphael is a very effective healer, and very friendly.



The fourth was when, initially viewing this image on a magazine cover, I was able to correctly identify it as the archangel Michael, before reading who it was, as a result of a couple of brief evocations I have done with him, as well.  Michael is a wonderful angel.  His offices are evocation and exorcism, and he also often meets members of Judaism in Near Death Experiences.  He is a large presence, and very powerful, but he exudes much calm and solar energy, as well.
http://www.thefaeriesandangelsmagazine.com/resources/Michael72CR.JPGtimestamp=12...

The fifth was when, reading a book on remote viewing, the book began to describe a building that I correctly identified as Auschwitz, two pages before the name was mentioned.  I had a very strong sense of negative energy from the description, and had not, to my knowledge, seen imagery of Auschwitz prior.

http://www.krakow-poland.com/image_magic.phptitle=x&imgid=becc&width=gaa&height=...

These might be considered small things, perhaps; but they add up over time.