I like Beau's descriptions and analogies.

And Matthew I agree with you and enjoy the way you formulate your posts.  You say what I want to say but more eloquently and intelligently. 

Yes, no amount of scientific proof will be good enough for everybody, and there will always be something you can poke a hole into and then you are back to looking for more scientific proof.  Ultimately the focus of the experiment becomes more on the physical science and equipment than it does on the true heart of the experiment. 

I agree too with Bruce...always saying that his method is easy for anyone to learn and it gives you the kind of proof you need and are looking for, without losing focus on what's important.

To further that, I can add my own findings.  I'm always working on improving my psychic abilities and recently have been having tremendous results.  What I'm also finding is that I truely believe in what they say, that we all have psychic ability and that we all can learn to use it.  Like Bruce says of his afterlife contact method...anyone can learn and use it.

Same with OBEs, anyone can learn to do them but of course the will and desire have to be there.  I obviously would not condone anyone trying to prove they themselves can have a NDE, although I'm playful enough to always joke that if I could survive with no damaging effects, I would love to get struck by lightning, die, and then come back to tell what I experienced.  I wouldn't even care if no one really believed me because I know that I trust my own consciousness about what I experience.  I've had countless OBEs with incredible proof of things I had no normal means of knowing, yet they were not "scientifically" proven in a lab so no amount of what I say will satisfy those who want such rigid guidelines of what they believe proof means to them.

Science is becoming less rigid than it used to be.  More and more is coming out that shows there's more to life than what we can prove scientifically.  Did anyone see the recent episode of Secrets of Your Mind where the neurologist studies the brain scans of sociopathic killers?  Their brains actually look different from normal brains.  But when the scientist himself saw his own brain scan, he found that his brain looked like that of a sociopath.  Why then is he not a murderer?  Will he snap one day and become one?  No.  The difference between him and the murderers is that he has love.  He can feel and experience, give, and receive love.  He was raised in a loving family and raised his own family lovingly. 

So can we scientifically prove love exists?  There are certainly some ways of doing that, like showing how the body and brain respond to thoughts of love.  But then again, you are dealing with thoughts, emotions, feelings, memories...all things are that nonphysical.  All these things are part of consciousness, not part of the brain.  There is always a conscious component playing a role, and that is what is the heart of any experiment or measurement.

So like I said, even science knows that you cannot take the mental and emotional out of the equation when you value your results.  Our consciousness really is our best tool.  If someone really wants to be satisfied with adequate proof, the only way to find it is to use your own conscious awareness to experience something for yourself.  I can write on and on about the experiences I've had that prove to me we survive death, but there is always some component that I cannot describe to a full enough extent that would satisify everyone.  There is a feeling that goes with the experience of an OBE, and no doubt it exists in NDEs too, and it's a feeling of being "not connected" to the physical.  There's really no way to understand it unless you have your own experience of it. 

Jehovah, I'm sorry to see you feel life is meaningless and I hope you continue to search for other ways to find satisfaction.  Keep looking for other ways to prove it to yourself. 

Hi great Jehovah... life is a miracle, you got that right, no doubt whatsoever. Although I cannot prove to you that an 'out of body' experience is 'real', I am certain that there are unlimited depths which remain yet unexplored within yourself. This is true of you, and of everyone. You will find a way. That is all I can promise. There is a way, and it is yours, unique, and beautiful.

love, be

hi jehovah  i have had an out of body experience,so i have my own proof,i saw my spirit,it was beautiful,it was a shade of pale yellow.

life is a path you walk until you have reached the end,then theres a brilliant light of god's love there and when you walk through it,you are at peace for eternity

love and god bless  love juditha

Really excellent post and points Pat E.  Couldn't agree more with that approach.

Jehovah, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much what specific beliefs you have or don't, even if you don't believe in the nonphysical...it's how you treat others, self, and the creation outside of you which really matters and determines the degree of inner happiness or lack.  I believe all humans on some level are seeking happiness either consciously or unconsciously.

  For most of us here, we just know from experiences we've had, that this continues into other dimensions besides this one. 

Maybe it would be more helpful to think in terms of different dimensions of which plenty physicists and mathematicians are fairly sure and say there exists many more than just 4. 

  If they are correct that there is more than the 4 we are aware of and use to, maybe then it is just a matter of tuning out of these 4 some and tuning into the other ones in order to perceive and experience them?

  Voila, not so outside one's current belief systems after all.

  If one tries to apply all the rules of the 4 dimensions we know and more consciously perceive to the other dimensions we don't tend to, it may be a fruitless effort for it's reasonable to assume that maybe not all the rules that apply in the dimensions we are conscious of, apply at all or in quite the same ways in those other dimensions. 

  You know, things like gravity, slower than light travel, etc. or even trying to measure & quantify  these other dimensions by physical means and gauges.

hi jehovah cold does exist,because cold is a feeling,if we did not feel cold,then the word cold would mean nothing,every word has a meaning

or, we would all be as confused as the cavemen,that just communicated by saying to each other   "urr urr,ugg ugg".

love and god bless  love juditha

One subject that (I think) we haven't touched upon here is the variety of psi or ESP experiences.  Laboratory tests have been and are being conducted in this area, and are worth looking into.

Telepathy and remote viewing (clairvoyance) are difficult to fit into a model of consciousness that attempts to reduce it to a (still mysterious and unproven) byproduct of neural activity limited to the interior of the human organism.

You might enjoy a recent DVD called "Something Unknown Is Doing We Don't Know What."  I just finished watching it today, and thought it was interesting and a lot of fun.  It might help pry up some of the edges of the despair of feeling that we are pointless automata.  It has some nice interviews with scientists doing work with psi.

(Spoiler alert    Charles Tart, who was the scientific adviser for the movie, has a sign that shows up in the film, "Don't believe everything you think."  I loved it!)

And -- try to relax a little!  The rumors of the completion and closure of human knowledge have been greatly exaggerated.  I think the posts in this thread have shown really well that there is so much out there and in here that has not been accounted for just yet.  That's part of the pleasure of the scientific endeavor, learning about the wonders of a universe that hasn't been completely understood from the depths to the heights.  And, judging by the clues found here and in similar experiences elsewhere, maybe even the most solidly-established truths of our received knowledge can be looked at with a fresh eye, with a very strong likelihood of finding something new, more spacious and more free.

In spite of occasional appearances, chains have never been appropriate for humans, or for any other forms of life.  Of course it's good to have some reliable things to hold on to (thank you, planet Earth!), but it's also good to set sail now and then, for the joy of the soul.  We've been given a lot of room for just that.

James

James, I haven't watched that DVD, but I will.  For years my license plate holder has had "Don't Believe Everything You Think" on it.  I still get the occasional question or comment about it.  I first heard the expression at a Pema Chodron weekend meditation retreat seven or eight years ago.  I had the holder specially made via the internet.

Bardo, I agree completely. 

Pat