Conversation Board - Aruments for and against a belief in God

b2

Ex Member

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #15 - Jun 16^th, 2010 at 8:15pm

Why do we have to argue about 'God'? Why can't some people believe in the God of their dreams and others just do what comes naturally? Why do we feel we must be in agreement with another person's view of if/what/who/how/why 'God' is?

If I'm in big trouble, and I'm feeling scared, I don't call out for help from my carpet. I call out for help (in my mind, or outloud) to 'God', whether I want to believe or not. It's a natural instinct. When I'm upset about something, sometimes I swear, and use the name of 'God', whether I want to do it or not.

I don't really know whether we have a real 'choice' in the matter. It seems to me that some societies have been so hard to live in that, without a belief in something greater than our 'outer world', humans have needed something more, to help them develop, as they grew in understanding of so many aspects of their world. A belief in deities, or some kind of 'God', seems appropriate to me, a belief in something, if only in service to others, something greater than what sometimes feels like a lost, or absurd, or painful, or disturbing reality, whatever. You get my drift.

No one should be forced to believe anything, nor do I think attempts to coerce belief really work. Your mind and your beliefs belong to you, so I think lifting your heart and mind up, in ways that are meaningful, which bring more understanding into your life, more compassion, are enough.

Back to top

IP Logged

Alan McDougall Super Member Offline Posts: 2104 South Africa Gender:	Re: Arguments for and against a belief in God Reply #16 - Jun 16^th, 2010 at 9:10pm Sorry guys I made a mistake and did not click the notify of response button I will add a little later Alan
Back to top	Blessings and Light Alan McDougall IP Logged

usetawuz

Senior Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 397
ne fla
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #17 - Jun 16^th, 2010 at 9:53pm

Inventech5 wrote on Jun 16^th, 2010 at 5:50pm:

usetawuz wrote on Jun 16^th, 2010 at 3:24pm:

To me, proof of God rests in the idea that we are free to believe anything we wish and the outcome is the same...we live and we die. The universality of the arrangement provides a level of continuity which indicates a purpose. Argument is interesting to a point, but in the end it comes down to what we feel is right, not so much what we can defend.

Why use the word God if everyone believes in something different?

Supreme being, Creator, God...the discussion was initiated with the word God, so I used it also...however the discussion did not turn on what to call the deity, but rather whether or not there was any proof of his/her/its existence.

Back to top

IP Logged

Alan McDougall

Super Member

Offline

Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #18 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 3:34am

Hi people below is my logical thinking about the existence of god

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God

Alan McDougall 24/6/2008

Back to top

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

IP Logged

Kardec Senior Member Offline I miss something I don't know what it is. Posts: 276 Brasil - Porto Alegre Gender:	Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God Reply #19 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 8:10am Allan I must confess that I've copied your text and I'll translate it to portuguese and send it to my friends... Of course I'll tell them who's wrote it.
Back to top	My hope is to get there whatever does "there" mean... IP Logged

Alan McDougall

Super Member

Offline

Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #20 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 10:20am

Kardec wrote on Jun 17^th, 2010 at 8:10am:

Allan I must confess that I've copied your text and I'll translate it to portuguese and send it to my friends...

Of course I'll tell them who's wrote it.

No problem,. go right ahead and maybe the Portuguese speaking people of Brazil would also like to read it people

Alan

Back to top

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

IP Logged

Inventech5

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 64

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #21 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 9:21pm

Quote:

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

No, actually I think it takes an equal amount of faith to (dis)believe in a god. It's not more rational to say that there was a creator, only more convenient; convenience doesn't truth. I assume that you're referring to the Big Bang when you say "How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?". This shows your ignorance of the subject; matter didn't come from nothing, it came energy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no explanation for "god's" existence other than he's always existed. This claim is based off what exactly? Huh

Quote:

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

No, I don't believe this, nor does anyone that I know of. Shocked

Quote:

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

Wow, your ignorance continues to show: DNA is nowhere near 'infinitely complex', in fact when the structure was discovered, the scientist were shocked by how simple it is. The age of the cosmos is estimated to be between 13.3 and 13.9 billion years old, and life is said to have begun 3.5 billion years ago. It took roughly 10 billion years, please explain to me how that is so quick. Shocked

Quote:

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

Scary, isn't it? Cry

Quote:

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

Well do that test with monkeys, and let me know how it works out. Wink

What makes you think that the world was beautiful when it was created? Huh

Quote:

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I'm sorry, but it's really frustrating that you're talking about evolution when you haven't the foggiest of how it works. Angry

"natural selection
–noun
the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations."

Quote:

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

Give me empirical evidence, not circumstantial evidence. Tongue

Quote:

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Great logic! Grin

Quote:

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

Yeah, beauty is everywhere where pain, suffering and evil don't exist. I'm sure that stuff exists where you live, or maybe you just ignore its existence to conveniently make that statement.

Quote:

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

No claims that 'chance' brought anything into existence. Huh

Quote:

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Why can't that 'prime cause' be the Big Band? Tongue

Quote:

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I didn't know that atheism was a science. Anyway, how is this proof of a god? Huh

I really hope you actually read my responses! Wink

Have a good day!

Back to top

IP Logged

Ralph Buskey

Senior Member

Offline

Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 401
Brick Township, NJ
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #22 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 9:23pm

Greetings.

I believe in one omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God that is the creator of everything in this universe and beyond. As far as any religion goes, I consider them all man made, based on individual and group experiences that guide the belief structure maintaining that religion.

I agree with Alan that it makes logical sense to believe that an omnipotent creator is responsible for life in this and other worlds. The DNA of life is amazing enough by itself; but now that we have so much evidence based on experiences both past and present from those gifted enough to corroboratively report on focus level / planes of existence beyond the physical, leaves little room for doubt in divine creation.

Ralph

Back to top

IP Logged

usetawuz

Senior Member

Offline

ALK Member

Posts: 397
ne fla
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #23 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 10:34pm

I too, can parse the crap out of anything that is brought up here but frankly, what is the point? If you choose to disagree, do so, but to pull apart someone's comments sentence by sentence with your materialistic, proof required stuff, is beyond anything I will read in the future. Two martinis in and three glasses of a fine bordeau and your s"tuff" seems to be a little over the top...c'mon, man, feel the love...the point in which any thought is shared here should be in love...we are all looking and seeking...no one is trying to prove a hard and fast point and no one is getting any leg up for showing up anyone else...you disagree, fine, state it in a respectful, understanding manner that not only makes your case, but shows the contrast with others...maybe we can agree.

I recently went to a 20th highschool reunion and a kid I knew (now an older man) stated a comment that I had not heard before..."opinions are like @ssho.es...everyones' got one and everyones' stinks but their own..." . You are welcome to think what you want, but so is everyone else...

Back to top

IP Logged

usetawuz Senior Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 397 ne fla Gender:	Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God Reply #24 - Jun 17^th, 2010 at 10:45pm Sorry...I got the impression that we should just be nice...here on this board, with each other, who are obviously looking for our own truths, we should just be nice. I wish all who read this my best and love an light. Love Scott.
Back to top	IP Logged

Alan McDougall

Super Member

Offline

Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male

Re: Arguments for and against a belief in God
Reply #25 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 4:47am

Quote:

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

No, actually I think it takes an equal amount of faith to (dis)believe in a god. It's not more rational to say that there was a creator, only more convenient; convenience doesn't truth. I assume that you're referring to the Big Bang when you say "How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?". This shows your ignorance of the subject; matter didn't come from nothing, it came energy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no explanation for "god's" existence other than he's always existed. This claim is based off what exactly? Huh

Quote:

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

No, I don't believe this, nor does anyone that I know of. Shocked

Quote:

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

Wow, your ignorance continues to show: DNA is nowhere near 'infinitely complex', in fact when the structure was discovered, the scientist were shocked by how simple it is. The age of the cosmos is estimated to be between 13.3 and 13.9 billion years old, and life is said to have begun 3.5 billion years ago. It took roughly 10 billion years, please explain to me how that is so quick. Shocked

Quote:

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

Scary, isn't it? Cry

Quote:

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

Well do that test with monkeys, and let me know how it works out. Wink

What makes you think that the world was beautiful when it was created? Huh

Quote:

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I'm sorry, but it's really frustrating that you're talking about evolution when you haven't the foggiest of how it works. Angry

"natural selection
–noun
the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations."

Quote:

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

Give me empirical evidence, not circumstantial evidence. Tongue

Quote:

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Great logic! Grin

Quote:

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

Yeah, beauty is everywhere where pain, suffering and evil don't exist. I'm sure that stuff exists where you live, or maybe you just ignore its existence to conveniently make that statement.

Quote:

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

No claims that 'chance' brought anything into existence. Huh

Quote:

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Why can't that 'prime cause' be the Big Band? Tongue

Quote:

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I didn't know that atheism was a science. Anyway, how is this proof of a god? Huh

I really hope you actually read my responses! Wink

Have a good day!

I happen to know what I wrote about and to say I am completely ignorant on some points points out to me that it is you that is just inventing counter arguments

In this forum we try not to get too personal, we debate in a friendly way an try not to demean each other, but try to win over each other with sound counter arguments.

I take real umbrage at you telling that I am completely ignorant, when you have no clue as to who I am Read some of my previous posts and you will see I am not the ignorant idiot you seem to think I am.

The DNA coding is unbelievably complex!! it is the code of physical life and from it come all the life forms we see on earth

For some who tells me it is easy to be an atheist and then goes into long detail indicated to me that is is difficult

If you don't concur with my statements debunk them with sound logic and I will move from my present position of understanding and embrace your atheism

Alan

Back to top

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

IP Logged

b2

Ex Member

Re: Arguments for and against a belief in God
Reply #26 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 7:52am

[quote author=454244575851535B53360 link=1276406448/25#25 date=1276850843 I assume that you're referring to the Big Bang when you say "How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?". [/quote]

How could nothing come from nothing....oh, dear, I am unable to stop this immense impulse to break into song...maybe it's because I was watching a tv show about a glee club last night....I'm sure it's relevant in some way...oh, no, I can't stop myself...here I go....from The Sound of Music....

(-maria-)
Perhaps I had a wicked childhood
Perhaps I had a miserable youth
But somewhere in my wicked, miserable past
There must have been a moment of truth
For here you are
Standing there
Loving me
Whether or not you should
So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

Nothing comes from nothing
Nothing ever could
So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

(-the captain-)
For here you are
Standing there
Loving me
Whether or not you should
(-maria-)
So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

(-together-)
Nothing comes from nothing
Nothing ever could
So somewhere in my youth or childhood
I must have done something good

.......uhm, okay, I'm done now.....

Back to top

IP Logged

juditha

Ex Member

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #27 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 11:17am

hi alan and all god is there,he exists as he speaks to me and he helps me to live in this world,without him there would be no hope anymore,the dark clouds would stay forever.

god will never leave my side because he knows i would die,he knows what's in my heart,he knows me more than i know me.

he is my salvation,he is my will to go on,he is my guide,he is my shoulder to cry on,he is all,everything that exists around and inside me.

he has spoken to me many times when i go down inside,he lifts me up to fight another day.

i love him with all my heart and all my soul

love and god bless love juditha

Back to top

IP Logged

Inventech5

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 64

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #28 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 11:51am

@usetawuz
I'm not trying to argue an opinion, that wouldn't make much sense.

@Alan McDougall
I'm sorry that you got the impression that I think you're an idiot. Being ignorant has nothing to do with intelligence. Again, no offense but you're saying things about Evolution and the Big Bang which are incorrect, which lead me to the conclusion that you're ignorant of the details of said topics, which is worrisome because I don't false information to spread. In addition, you originally said that DNA molecules are complicated, not the code. I don't quite understand what you mean by this:
Quote:

For some who tells me it is easy to be an atheist and then goes into long detail indicated to me that is is difficult

Quote:

If you don't concur with my statements debunk them with sound logic and I will move from my present position of understanding and embrace your atheism

I thought that I did debunk with sound logic, if not, please let me know where my logic is flawed.

MUCH LOVE INVENTECH5 Cheesy

Back to top

IP Logged

Alan McDougall

Super Member

Offline

Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male

Re: Aruments for and against a belief in God
Reply #29 - Jun 18^th, 2010 at 5:02pm

Quote:

hi alan and all god is there,he exists as he speaks to me and he helps me to live in this world,without him there would be no hope anymore,the dark clouds would stay forever.

god will never leave my side because he knows i would die,he knows what's in my heart,he knows me more than i know me.

he is my salvation,he is my will to go on,he is my guide,he is my shoulder to cry on,he is all,everything that exists around and inside me.

he has spoken to me many times when i go down inside,he lifts me up to fight another day.

i love him with all my heart and all my soul

love and god bless love Juditha

Juditha,

You are a beautiful soul and god loves you in a special way just like you love him. Very few people can say that they love god so dearly as you do

Blessings and light

Alan

Back to top

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

IP Logged