Don,
your standards regarding verification of ooBE's are crystal clear. But it is impossible to verify anything under these standards.

When someone gains informations about something one can't know through physical means (and this is regarding spontaneous experiences, often impossible to prove) you can always say that one had a look at a universal database, and it was not an ooBE.

I have told you more than one time that such a proof you want to have can't exist. You are focusing on a hunt for something, which you made sure it can't be found. Don't waste your time furthermore on this, but learn, what is really important. It is to let go of old repeating thought patterns.

Spooky

Lakman,

New Agers here routinely assume that my skeptical questions arise from the poverty of my own experiences.  Collectively, my experiences, though far from proof, convince me that the survival hypothesis is more plausible than poetmortem annihilation.  My Christian contemplative practice and beliefs led to my paranormal experiences, but they are not a divine reward for personal merit.  If you were an honest seeker, you would be delighted by anyone who had paranormal experiences that point to an afterlife.  Every once in a while I encounter Christians who routinely experience more miracles than I do and I am so grateful for this reinforcement of an afterlife and the possibility of discerning their breakthrough insights.  Since you have expressed an interest, I will reactivate my old thread on the most convincing paranormal experiences that I or others I have encountered have enjoyed.

Don

Hawkeye: "Most of these so called miracles can not be proved, and many that seem anything but and more likly, just coincidences."
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Duh, read through my survey of paranormal experiences in my thread "A Recent Healing of a Cripple" and explain to me how these experiences can be dismissed as mere coincidences.  I doubt that even the New Age Ghetto members here would agree with you on that!

hAWKEYE: "organised religion where lies, hate, persecution, and now sexual perversion is the norm from the top right down to the bottom."
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Insipid bigotry!   The church is the source of the greatest kindness and altruistic service in a world.  For example, last Sunday after church most of our congregation fanned out to the homes of the poor and elderly and performed spring cleaning and repair work for them at our own expense.  Your penchant to define the norm by the worst examplars exposes how utterly incapable of honest dialogue you really are.

Hawkeye: "We are ALL honest seekers here Don.
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I can hear your readers giggling at the presumption of this absurd generalization.

Hawkeye: "But just because we don't follow your path, or need your so called proof."
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You must learn to read. I have repeatedly insisted that proof is impossible.  Indeed, it is a word used by New Agers to prevent a rigorous quest for evidence-based truth possible.  In the absent of proof, we must determine which interpretations make the best sense of the relevant data.  But first, of course, we must determine which date are evidentially relevant.

Hawkeye: "Proof is a personal thing."
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No, proof of an afterlife is impossible, but psychological certitude is irrelevant in the absence of evidence and logical coherence.

Hawkeye: "When you say to Lakeman "If you were an honest seeker.....", are we to take it you don't beleave him to be honest,  or you beleave him delusional?"
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Your silly inference, not mine.  the jury is out on Lakeman.  He has not yet seasoned his penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigorous analysis.

Don

"the jury is out on Lakeman.  He has not yet seasoned his penchant for bluster with a modicum of rigorous analysis."

Ah, so much "witnessing" to do, and so little time!

You are a braggart and a bully. There's nothing remotely spiritual, or even paranormal, about that. Too many of you types around as it is!

Don:

Just because you had lucid dreams that didn't prove anything to you, this doesn't mean that other people haven't had experiences that are convincing.

Your assumption that you know what other people experienced better than they do, is a bit arrogant.

Consider this. Kurt Leland wrote that he doubts that George Ritchie had contact with Jesus, it was simply a matter of how Ritchie interpreted things.

Who's in a better position to determine who Ritchie was with during his NDE? Kurt Leland or George Ritchie?

Who's in a better position to determine what others have experienced? Them or you?

Your distaste for new age people doesn't leave you in an unbiased state of mind.

People who speak to each other on websites, who are not facing each other in a room of their peers, fully accountable for what they are saying, often take things much further than what they would normally do.

How's about everyone thinking, right now, about how to resolve this argument in a peaceful way, without anyone else being compared to a terrorist?

Remember peace? No? Well, how's about we make some peace here, so we can show people how it's done. Otherwise, we're just wasting the people's time.

I just want to acknowledge all of you who support my efforts in Private Messages to expose the mindset on this site for what it really is.   It truly is a remarkable cultic phenomenon.  New Agers will do just about anything to avoid the hard task of carefully scrutinizing the available evidence and attempts to make coherent sense of the most significant experiences.  That is why in the 10+ years this site has been here, there is no expansion whatever of our knowledge of afterlife territories and the principles that govern them. 

Don

That's one man's opinion, Don. But, the tone is certainly more reasonable. If your intention is to 'expose' this website for whatever 'you' think it is, well, that doesn't really interest me. And, truly 'wise' people are not interested in the 'applause' of others. It so easily leads to other less agreeable outcomes. Peace, however, is always worth the effort, or lack thereof. I doubt that it results from 'trying' too hard. Most likely, it results from shared goals and accomplishments, and from mutual respect. For example, how are those who work together in space supposed to 'just leave' if they have a disagreement on a long-term mission in space? Do they 'physically' leave, or do they 'mentally' leave, or do they 'spiritually' leave? Is there 'time' to 'meditate'? What kind of conversations do we want to have on long-term explorations in our solar system, if that becomes possible? What about undersea living? If that becomes possible? What are the limits of our ability to put aside our fixations about 'superiority' or 'hierarchy', and what model will we use for long term success? Already, our resources, and our ability to 'tap' them are being tested. How will we work together in a major worldwide catastrophic situation? These are only a few areas in which our ability to 'rise above' petty accusations and childish, manipulative tactics are crucial. Have a nice day.