These 6 criteria can of course be greatly expanded, and I would appreciate your suggestions on other validation principles.

(1) The only case of an OBE in which someone identified a random 5-digit number concealed near the ceiling is open to the charge of possible cheating and, in any case, could not be replicated by the adept (Miss Z).  In general, lab tests of OBE ability have been appallingly disappointing.  (I have read several books on such research.)  It will not do to rationalize this failure by claiming that astral matter does not coincide with physical matter; so verification is impossible.  Swedenborg proves this cop-out wrong.

(2) A woman (Maria) experienced an OBE when she was just 5.  She was led down a path lined with trellises containing gigantic beautiful flowers.  In her 50s, she painted a picture of the scene and told her doctor about it.  He asked for a copy, framed it, and hung it in in office, together with 10 other paintings.  Another female patient was drawn to it because she had been to the same locale during her NDE.  Both women were just 5 during their NDE!  So they apparently went to a portion of Paradise for newly arriving 5 year-olds.  This implies that "geographical" criteria can serve as verifications for genuine spirit planes even if they are mental. 

It has been claimed that Robert Monroe created a TMI-There in Focus 27 at a site with a special crystal.  Astral travelers have given inconsistent descriptions of the site and the crystal.  These astral partnered explorations should be viewed with skepticism.  They are precisely what would be expected from a purely imaginative lucid dream adventure.  And there is evidence of geographically consistent descriptions of NDE travlers who have not influenced each other's NDE.   

(3) Many Christians and no doubt others claim that during their NDEs theBeing of Light and the  colors of Paradise were bright like the sun, though this did not hurt their eyes. Brightness seems to be one indicator of a higher vibration heaven.  Correlation studies are needed to determine what factors, beliefs, insights, and experiences are a function of brightness of the plane.  Robert Bruce admits that he has merely glimpsed the higher heavens thruogh an apparent "portal."

(4) If OBEs are real, it should be possible to contact a discarnate soul and ask him to reveal the same cryptic thought independently to several different astral explorers.  If these explorers have not consulted or been influenced by each other, they should be able to visit the same spirit and get the same message without consultation.  The fact that such replicated experiments have not succeeded casts seriously doubt on the genuineness of the astral travel in question.

(5) Claims about a House of Knowledge in Focus 27 should summarily dismissed unless verifications can be obtained.  For example, the size an shape of the buillding, the "landscaping,"  the geographical context (surrounding buildings and scenery) should all be indepedently verifiable.  And previously unknown verifiable facts should available from the House of Knowledge itself.  It won't do to rationalize that different adepts have different perspectives.  Swedenborg and the best NDEs have established common features that can be independently identified. 

(6) It should be possible during astral travel to ask discarnate spirits to outline 10 consecutive different activities they might typically perform on their plane.  How odd it seems that even something as simple as  this has little attestation.  Even the seeds of a coherent astral lifestyle are evidently too much for our limited imaginations masquerading as portraying genuine spirit planes.

The alternative to such rigorous criteria is to pander to the New Age Ghetto by embracing all sorts of unverifiable experiences and believing that mutual affirmation from the gullible herd is suifficient grounds for belief.  We must always begin our quest by asking: what would we expect if all these astral claims were a cruel hoax based solely on an overactive imagination fueled by wishful thinking.  Sporadic minor ESP experienced during alleged astral travel simply does not pass the smell test.   

Don   

Don,

"We must always begin our quest by asking: what would we expect if all these astral claims were a cruel hoax based solely on an overactive imagination fueled by wishful thinking."

I'll leave 'we must' for Dark Age Knee Benders. Bada bing bada boom. The first post-C1 focus levels are subjective areas, and imagination and wishful thinking very much apply as they reflect one's personal thoughts coming to life. Focus levels where the personal beliefs held can be explored. So a cruel hoax it is not, but they may seem as objective areas. Letting out a little emotion of fear in this personal space, it manifests and seems objective, which can create more fear, and so on. The tricky part can be getting to know when overlays happen when focusing beyond C1. Not being able to maintain a calm emotional state of mind, a subjective focus level can then overlay F23-F27++. A subjective focus level can also overlay C1, and for some this can seem painfully real when not realizing they are dealing with their own animated fears.

Hawkeye,

My point is this: astral travelers who visit the crystal in TMI-There share contradictory, not merely different perspectives on this encounter.  The same contradictions show up in partnered exploration experiments.  On the other hand, some NDEs and Swedenborg's astral travels reveal verifiable "geographical" landmarks that can be revisited and independently verified.  So the confirmation is available, but true knowledge is quickly aborted by those who mistake lucid dream consciousness and its waking equivalent with the real thing.  Psychological certainty counts for nothing in the absence of supporting evidence.  The world is full of mentally ill people and religious extremists who are absolutely certain that their experiences prove their belief system.  If astral exploration were genuine, we should be steadily increasing our knowledge of different planes.  Instead, astral explorers seem to be able to do little more that reaffirm their New Age doctrines and have little regard for contradictory testimony.  I want to work towards a world that works for everyone.  But I have learned that one must always consider the source and that, most of the time, the source is an uncritical New Age fundamentalist with no reliable astral knowledge to offer.

Don

I'd like to add some more.

Initially I received some verifications that pacified the doubtful part of my mind, but it didn't take long for the need for verifications to go away.

Once you understand that the friendly beings you communicate with don't deal with tomfoolery (even though they have a sense of humor), it would be impractical to expect them to come up with something you can verify on a regular basis. Doing so would be the same as asking a friend or family member to prove his or her existence to you everytime you meet.

It is incumbent on those without faith to demand proof.  Where does that leave you, Don?___________________________________
One of the characteristics of the New Age Ghetto is their absurd need to project a demand for proof on their critics when no such demand has ever been made.   That irrational projection excuses them from the hard work of addressing the crucial question they always avoid: How can the honest seeker distinguish the absolute psychological certainty that the characters in one's lucid dreams seem real from the absolute certainty that OBEs seem real?  This question becomes all the more urgent when lucid dream experts like Stephen LaBerge can have OBEs at will, and yet, have the good sense to recognize that no real discarnate spirits are being contacted in thsse imaginary dream worlds. 

New Agers are either too dense or too close-minded to realize that alleged conversations with astral discarnates automatically offers a possibility of soliciting verifiable information about that person's earthly life.  The consistent failure of astral explorers to pose such questions is proof of their lack of intellectual integrity because they are relying on an illustory self-authentication that is itself dubious, given the comparable certainty offered during the actual experience of lucid dreams.  Astral explorers don't ask such questions because they know they won't receive evidentiary answers and they enjoy the cheap comforts that derive from naive acceptance of alleged astral experiences that deserve the same critical scrutiny of all forms of knowledge.  Proof is of course unattainable and therefore irrelevant.  But the need for "evidence" and "logical coherence" cannot be ignored by intelligent seekers.  The ability of some astral explorers to routinely gain astounding specific verifications calls into doubt the genuineness of astral wannabes on this site who cannot deliver the goods like others can (e. g. Swedenborg and many NDEs).  One must always strive to develop criteria for distinguishing the real from the counterfeit.  The Ghetto's failure to take this seriously exposes the sad truth that posters on this site have rarely, if ever, experienced genuine astral realms or genuine contact with discarnate humans.  Proof be dam-ned!  Stop ducking the real issues.

Don   

Berserk2 wrote on May 4^th, 2010 at 1:16am:


May you be as successful in your search for answers as I have been in mine, and may your desire to abuse those to whom you speak dissolve into the love and acceptance espoused by Jesus, the Christ.  I wish you well.

So, Kathy, I take it that you are okay with verbal abuse of people Don doesn't even know personally? You are okay with name-calling? You think it shows loving concern? I don't really know how else to interpret what you just said. Are you implying that I am only seeing a reflection of who I am, 'angry-person'? Maybe I have very good reasons for making a point out of this 'persuasive quality' of his.

The problem with brushing such things under the rug is that they escalate. They get worse over time. I think it's important to make the case for a more civil kind of conversation here, and that is exactly what I have done. Have a nice day, everyone.

Lights,

I can applaud striving to not take something personally. On the board and in everyday earth life, we've got images of each other, so it can't be personal even if that was the intent. What is said and done are projections of our own worlds/realities. You have an image of your self, and so does everybody around you. Some you disagree with, some close, some almost there, and so on. And so in turn it's with everybody else. Nothing other people do is because of you, it's because of themselves. Something can be emotional garbage, but if not taken personally, it stays with the correct character to deal with it. Eat garbage, and it becomes your garbage. Pat on the back? It's not really personal either, as they still have an image of your world, the action is based on their world, not on yours, but the acceptance/external validation may feel good.