I have not been to TMI, though I have attended a weekend workshop that was given locally by a TMI outreach person.(let's see $200 vs $3000, easy choice).

I probably wouldn't go, not just becauseit is out of my price range but also because I find it dificult to sit still for extended periods of time and feel physically ill when I do. It does sound as though they save the best wine for the in-house party and the effects there are sometimes more intense. I have a set of tapes (yes cassettes) from years ago and they never cut it with me the way I hoped. I think resonant tuning sounds like the ghouls' chorus. But I think Bob Monroe was on to something.

I also think that one of the rules of being born here is that, just like everyone has to submit to gravity, everyone is born with clay feet.

Regarding what Seraphis wrote below:

Acceptance without investigation leads to cult members.

Before I say something about gurus, let me say something about making contact with one's higher self (in a disk sense) and spirit guidance. There are higher realms of being where spirits live completely according to love and good intentions. As long as you are certain you've made such a connection, you should be fine with the guidance you receive. You'll probably find that such guidance doesn't present you with a belief system to follow and doesn't take away your ability to think for yourself. Such guidance is more like having a friend that will point out when you're missing something, and will offer you perspectives you haven't considered. Such guidance understands that growth can be obtained when a person learns to figure things out "mainly" by his or herself, rather than being told what to believe.

Some people such as myself and apparently SHSS have really seen what the guru thing is about, and have come to understand that a responsible person who really understands something wouldn't present his or herself as a so-called enlightened being, because when one does so one basically claims that one has ultimate knowledge and what ones says is truer than other viewpoints.

When people conclude that another person is enlightened as he or she claims, then they often make the mistake of putting what this person says ahead their own experience, conscience, heart, intelligence and common sense. I've seen this happen to so many people. Until they get to the point where they stop giving another person so much power in determining what they believe, they won't be able to find out for themselves.

This being the case, any responsible person wouldn't make the mistake of setting themselves up as an authority figure other people won't question by claiming that he or she is enlightened or claiming he or she channels a being who has all of the answers; no need to look elsewhere or think differently.

Going by what I've seen, Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen don't fall into the above scenario, because neither of them were/are interested in being a guru who is put on a pedestal.

Regarding the pedestal, from a historical perspective, this is what the guru tradition is about. A disciple must surrender his or herself to the guru and turn the guru into an absolute authority figure that can't be questioned. A disciple must worship a guru as if he (or she) is god himself. Only a megalomaniacal self serving person would put his or herself in such a position. Only a dishonest (or deluded) person would claim that he or she holds the key to somebody else's spiritual welfare. Only an unethical, dishonest and heartless person would infringe upon another person's freedom and spiritual welfare to the degree guru's do.

We are all very small pieces of God to the same extent.

Therefore, I believe Spooky is wise to study Zen on his own, rather than believe he needs somebody else to tell him how to do so.




Seraphis1 wrote on Mar 21^st, 2010 at 12:25am:

recoverer wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 1:12pm:



Hi: The problem I have with your observations is the name calling and personal attacks... it reduces your arguments to demogogery...

Life and especially the pursuit of enlightenment is an interaction of qualities. There is no necessity for personal involvement... all these teachers have established positionalities which are like computer programs... and not the Real Self... Truth just is... one either recognizes it or not... one can be fooled... one picks oneself up dusts oneself off and keep on truckin'.

The world holds an endless array of positions that are arbitrary presumptions which may or may not be fallacious. One can observe them and respect how they are seen and valued by others without personally subscribing to them. One can appreciate how the world sees but not be entrapped by it or them.

A paraphrasing from the work of Dr. David Hawkins.

S.

I doubt anyone would regret going to TMI for Gateway. Worth every cent. Life changing. Spiritually uplifting. Fulfilling.

Hawkeye:

When you were at TMI did anybody tell you to bow to them, kiss their feet, drink their bath water, that they hold the key to your spiritual growth? I doubt it.

David Hawkins speaks about how enlightened, on a percentage basis, people who do the above, are. If he understood about them he would measure them according to megalomania rather than how enlightened they supposedly are.

Read the Guru Gita and you'll see what the guru game is about.

hawkeye wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2010 at 4:33pm:

Volu:

I can't say with any certainty what Jesus was all about. I don't know to what extent the gospels accurately represent his life and what he said. I don't believe he was a guru.

Perhaps he knew a thing or two about the afterlife and let people know. This is why he spoke in terms of as you sow so you reap. Not because God punishes you, but because your overall state of mind determines where you go after you die.

Perhaps he understood about the importance of living according to love and the golden rule.

I doubt that he wanted to be worshiped, or that he believed that fear, oppression and spirituality are a good mix.


Volu wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2010 at 12:35pm:

That's what I figured Hawkeye.

When I watch Robert Monroe on youtube he seems like a humble man who wasn't interested in having a bunch of followers.