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Greetings and a little background. (Read 21403 times)

heisenberg69

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #30 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:14am

I've just finished reading ' The Historical Figure of Jesus' by E.P Saunders (described on the back cover by Professor John B. Meier as 'America's most distinguished scholar in the field of Jesus-research today'). One of the things that strikes me about the book is the general tone of moderation in the language. For example from the preface ' my own view is that studying the gospels is extremely hard work. I sympathise with the scholars who despaired of recovering much good evidence about Jesus. I also think, however, that the work pays off in modest ways that are to be expected in the study of ancient history.' This moderate tone permeates the whole book. He presents a case where there are things we know about Jesus with very good confidence, other things less confidently and others are best guesses.

The point I am making is that here we have a chap who has devoted his academic life to studying Jesus (with some success according to his contempories) and he is modest in his claims in what we can know historically as Jesus 'facts'. For me gaps in that knowledge are filled by believer's faith. In itself that is neither good nor bad. But surely the believer must understand that that faith is personal to himself and himself only.Whether others choose to share that faith is their choice.

Dave

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Beau Super Member Offline Posts: 1176 Greenville SC Gender:	Re: Greetings and a little background. Reply #31 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:16am I've heard of the book, Dave. What do you think is the most compelling of his Jesus facts? Does the moderate language seem so because there are so few facts? Would you consider Saunders a believer of the highest order or more of a true historian. I'm just curious about his approach.
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heisenberg69

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #32 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 10:05am

Hi Beau,

Ed Saunders identifies himself as a ' liberal, modern, secularized Protestant' who tries to keep his religious convictions out of his scholarship. Nothing I got from the book persuaded me that was'nt the case; he treats Jesus as a historical figure with relative impartiality I feel.

Some of his knowns include: Jesus was born near the time of the death of Herod the Great, he spent his early years in Nazareth, he was baptized by John the Baptist, he called disciples,he preached 'the kingdom of God, he created a disturbance in the Temple, he was arrested and interrogated by Jewish authority (esp. high priest), he was executed on the orders of Pontius Pilate. After those and a few more knowns things begin to get hazier and academic dialogue and debate enters the fray...Saunders recognises that the writers of the gospels were not impartial documenters of history in the modern sense but constructed and shaped their writings from individual pericopes (units of gospel material) that were available to them into a narrative or story they wished to tell.

Dave

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Lucy

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #33 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 11:54am

Hi Stone Cold True

Interesting stories. I could see why one would want to sleep with the TV on.

Thomas listed all the best places to start reading. Have you ever read any of these books? Being a university there is even a slight chance Monroe's first book might be in the library where you are. (If you are still a student, you might appreciate that! Once when I was at Chapel Hill, I wandered in the stacks and read every thing I could find on certain topics, such as reincarnation. They even had some old stuff by Frederick Myers, which is probably difficult to find elsewhere, but that's another story.)

I would be interested to hear your response to reading any of the things Thomas lists.

You didn't mention any of the Civil War ghosts. Maybe they don't interest you. There are supposed to be hauntings at Shiloh. And one interesting story is recounted in a book called Someone Else's Yesterday . It's about a man in CT who sort of discovers a past life as a Civil War officer. It's kind of dry but the account of the actual experience he had is pretty interesting.

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Lucy

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #34 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 2:43pm

Hi SCT

Nothing baout ghosts or religion this time.
Just that synchronicity makes me laugh.

So I had to run up to the grocery store. I had the radio on, and I often put it on public radio. I think they changed their schedule. I don't often listen at this time, but the program they played was one I know I listened to on a different day at a different time. So I was surprised to hear it today.

It is called "This American Life" and today's story list, stories about saving the day, included a story from Montevallo University. Now, before your post, I never heard of the place. Today I'm hearing a story about something called The Lifeboat Debate. (they forgot to mention the ghosts). It was pretty interesting, funny, and thoughtful.

At the end of the show the host, Ira Glass, pointed out that you could find the stories on-line in case you missed one because you went ot the grocery store or whatever. Here's the link. I thought the snake story was pretty good; I missed the middle one.

As I said, synchronicity makes me laugh.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/

I searched "ghosts" on the site and came up with this list, which link I hope works. I have to check it later.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/search?keys=ghosts

but the stories are always good so this ought to be entertaining.

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Berserk2

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #35 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 3:09pm

heisenberg,

It's E. P. Sanders, not "Saunders." To many, Sanders is militantly anti-Christian and could not get along with his colleagues at MacMasters University. I doubt that he believes in an afterlife. But he is well respected among acedamics and has made important original contributions to the field. So despite my disagreements with Sanders, you are certainly reading someone with expertise. John B. Meier is even better, very well respected. Though I would prefer that you read N. T. Wright instead, I applaud you for expanding your reading outside the New Age Ghetto and reading mainstream scholarship. I have no complaints about intellectual adversaries whose reading is well grounded in interdisciplinary fields. I am merely advocating that posters have respectable grounds for what they believe. Though they tend to be skeptical, both Sanders and Meier can certainly give you that grounding.

Don

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heisenberg69 Super Member Offline Posts: 504 England Gender:	Re: Greetings and a little background. Reply #36 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 3:26pm It's E. P. Sanders, not "Saunders Correction noted (doh!). I do try and get out of the ghetto once in a while....
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StoneColdTrue

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #37 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:06pm

Lucy,

The only ghost I MAY have encountered from the Civil War would have been whatever we heard walking around in Reynold's Hall. I'm sure with enough looking around people could find new hauntings.

Kind of silly actually is after my roommate and I's experience in the dorm, we heard what sounded very similar to guns being shot at about 4-5 AM on many mornings. We decided the sound was similar to that of musket fire and wondered about it being the connection to the Civil War. Eventually we finally found out it was the trash truck emptying the dumpters from across campus which was just loud enough to create a sort of echo which made it sound like multiple guns firing.

The thing about that Civil War officer is interesting to me. The idea of reincarnation is pretty deep. Of having lived a life before this one but only having small ideas of it because you have forgotten. It kind of makes sense in a way...but so many new lives come to this world I think there is more to it than just recycling of life. Maybe there's a combination. Maybe we'll die and receive the options of remaining in eternity or returning to earth with an all new life and will only have our prior memories upon new death. So much to think about and consider. But I'm closed minded like Don said so maybe I should just believe in a single religion instead of thinking and questioning things.

"The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. " -Bertrand Russel

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Berserk2

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #38 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 8:45pm

[Stone Cold:] "But I'm closed minded like Don said"
How refreshing to see you admit it. Grin

So are many people. Now we can begin the hard work of honest and open inquiry.

[Stone Cold:] "So maybe I should just believe in a single religion instead of thinking and questioning things."
______________________
Yes, but I hate to break this to you: the Bible insists that you provisionally reject standard views to achieve breakthroughs in knowledge. So I guess you'll have to choose a religion other than Christianity.

"Only simpletons believe everything they are told! The prudent carefully consider their steps...Intelligent people are always open to new ideas. In fact, they look for them (Proverbs 14:15; 18:15--New Living Translation)."

In fact, Catholic adepts have achieved both the best attested bilocation in history and the clearest and most convincing EVP (Electronic Voice Phenomena). The Pope eagerly listened to the clear voice of a priest's father on a tape of Gregorian Chant unexpectedly expressing answers to the priest's questions. The Pope then urged further EVP research on the grounds that God may well use EVPs to prove the existence of the afterlife to a skeptical world.

The best book to read on parapsychological issues like ghosts and reincarnation is Jesuit John Heaney's: "The Sacred and the Psychic: Parapsychology and Christian Theology." Though a Catholic, Heaney makes the best case for reincarnation. Heaney can do this because, contrary to New Age screed, the Catholic church never officially rejected reincarnation! The second best book on parapsychology is David Fontana's, "Is There an Afterlife? A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence." His work is more comprehensive than Heaney's, but not as discerning.

Don

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hawkeye

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #39 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:07pm

I don't know if you will be able to find it or not but "Life In The World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia, (Citadel Press 52/58) and More About Life In The World Unseen, (Odhams Press Limited 1956) are extremely valuable in any lessons or understanding regarding the afterlifes. Complete explorations of the afterlife including past lives and the different Hells, Heavens, and what Bob Monroe ended up naming the Focus Levels. I read it at TMI. Couldn't take my nose out of and came close to missing exercises because it hit home so closely. Both are at least as good or in some parts even might be better than explanations of Bobs or Bruces. ( I see this book has been reprinted a number of times and is for sale on the internet )

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carl

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #40 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 1:49am

"The United Methodist Church." My own church http://afterlife-knowledge.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/right.gifsponso... groups like Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Habitat for Humanity, workshops for abuse problems, Blood Bank, weekly free meals for the poor, free meals for the elderly, a Love Fund for the poor" ...Says Don!........Bravo!!!!

Hey!! I'm at present a Secretary of an Alcoholics Anonymous Group!!! No!!!(Don)! to your statement that your Methodist church is sponsoring A.A! A.A. is Totally Independent of all Religious, Political, or Commercial institutions or Religious Traditions!!! We rent premises from the various religious traditions/churches, and also organizations to conduct our meetings! This also includes the Masonic Lodge halls, and all the other Chrisitian churches/halls in all the states, and overseas countries! Plus non-religious public meetings halls and private homes if necessary!

A.A. is non Christian. Other A.A. Countries use their own available rented premises or any other place they deem fit to conduct meetings. A.A. is non-religious, but they suggest you make personal contact with your God-Creator of your own understanding to aid your sobriety!....Google up A.A.!? N.A. copies the exact same program as A.A! Want to take me on regarding A.A., Don? You Religious Nerd!!!

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Berserk2 Super Member Offline Posts: 844 Gender:	Re: Greetings and a little background. Reply #41 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 11:43am Carl, Your addictive disorder helps explain your relentless irrational viciousness, but you know better. You know very well what I meant. Our church has opened its arms to alcoholic members and encouraged them to start local AA meetings. We have done the same for Narcotics Anonymous. Don
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recoverer

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #42 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 1:39pm

B2, sorry for the late response, I haven't visited the internet for a few days. I'm certain it missed me.

Sometimes I can be too pushy, which can be a mistake, because unless somebody for some curious reason believes he (or she) has the right to decide for somebody else's soul, he shouldn't be so forceful with his viewpoint.

If a person is sincere about finding his way, he will do so. Ironically, people who are overly forceful with their viewpoints and claim their way is the only and/or ultimate way, are amongst the people who slow down sincere people.

Sorry about not responding to your post in a more precise way, I wrote what came to mind.

Quote:

Recoverer, I like what you said, and I agree with the spirit of it. I would like to take this small section (portion quoted below in box) so that I can point out an area of thought I'm having difficulty with. People have a book called the Bible, and they can pick it up and base their lives on it. So, whether they take instruction on it from someone else, or whether they use the book as their own personal reference book, they are basing their beliefs on one source. They are calling this the 'highest' source.

Now, I have known certain people who have taken this book and interpreted it exactly as they liked. They have studied and studied, compared the text to other great literature all over the world, compared spiritual texts to each other to find what appeared as common values, which support the 'found' Biblical values.

So, you would think such people would be living 'better' lives than one who had a 'lesser' understanding of the Bible.

But that is not the case. No matter how much I watch people cling to their 'knowledge' as a spiritual guide, I find, very often, chaotic thinking. False assumptions are made all the time, by such a person, in my opinion. What's worse, the Biblical 'strength' (or other religious comfort found by anyone, from any source of religious 'materials') that a person might 'cling to' and build up for themselves (after all, they are following the 'ultimate' authority) -- is a source of Pride and Accomplishment and False Humility in the name of the Pursuit of Wisdom and Godliness. I put those in capitals, because then you can see the 'swagger' that can result in the gait of anyone who Too Greatly respects their own 'Knowledge' or the source of their 'Knowledge'.

I think that Don serves a good purpose here, when he is not distracting or amusing others by his 'props' (the repetitive 'insulting' characterization of others here as, uhm, clueless), by reminding us that our own interpretations can be False, no matter where we are standing.

So, I don't know who to believe anymore, those who tell us to dig in there and study for ourselves and find our own inspiration and the rest 'be damned' -- or to believe those who have studied for most of their lives, and are now convinced that they have the 'discernment' to make decisions 'for' others, or to be more 'forceful' in their stance.

Of course, I am talking about one person, which is why my grammar is messed up here, and I keep going back and forth with they, them, etc. But, don't assume it's Don. There are many many many people out there who are 'interpreting' all kinds of things erroneously, and every single one of us, including me, should open our eyes and understand that, no matter how Certain we are, we need to open up our minds a little more.

No harm, in doing that. No harm, in each of us debating with the 'facts' we have, and respecting each other while we do it.

When people spend time debating the 'spiritual quality' of the other -- that's demeaning any way you look at it. Not one of us has the wisdom and knowledge to look at someone else and think we can 'judge' their spiritual level of 'attainment' (not me, although I do often open my big mouth and try to do it), and I think it's a very, very small step from doing that to making a major mistake.

Everyone does this, now and then, as I see it. What do you think?

Well, my 2 cents, anyway. Thanks for the listen.

recoverer wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 6:42pm:

Hello Stone Cold True:

Even if a person found inspiration in the Bible, I believe it would be better for he (or she) to interpret it in his own way, rather than somebody else's way.

I believe a day will come when the majority of the human race will reach the point where it won't have to follow some guru or somebody's religious interprations in order to be in touch with what is true. Instead they'll open their hearts and minds to common sense and divine inspiration.

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goobygirl

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Re: Greetings and a little background.
Reply #43 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 5:00pm

I truly do not believe that there is a GOD that anyone will face that will judge him or her. I believe it is the GOD within yourself that will review your life. Under those circumstances, there is no "right" or "wrong" just a slowing down of spiritual progress, or even speeding up by experiencing what we call "wrong" so you don't do that anymore.

What I seriously am wondering about is why Don is here? There is a lot of New Age Ghetto crap we talk about...I am sure Don will find what he believes he will find on the other side simply because of the strength of his belief and based on how the afterlife supposedly works: you find what you believe in.

However, I truly disagree that any GOD could look down at us pitiful humans and damn any of us to an eternal hell for not believing exactly as Don does. It's too limiting and too unlikely. Too many billions of lives have come and gone on this planet, many before Jesus, and many since then, who had no contact with Christianity. It just doesn't make sense.

So Don, why are you on this board other than to tell people their thinking is sloppy and wrong? What about Moen's material brings you here? Just plain curious.

Goobygirl

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StoneColdTrue Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 237 Birmingham, AL Gender:	Re: Greetings and a little background. Reply #44 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 8:11pm Maybe he is the deceiver.
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