Hawkeye,

The man charged with child molestation was a school child psychologist, not a priest or minister.  His life apart from this charge was morally impeccable and included innumerable volunteer services that benefited the community and the church.  At the time of the alleged incident, he had been increasing his altruistic service.  My point is this: his loving conduct was not an act to mask a perverted compulsion; it was a genuine manifestation of spiritual growth.  But the greatest spiritual tests come precisely during moments of great spiritual development.  One explanation of this is that dark spiritual forces view scuh progress as a threat to the cause of evil and ramp up their temptations and testing.  But other explanations are possible.  I merely note this this phenomenon is commonplace--spiritual growth = testing = [for many] a fall from a lofty perch.  So we must not define character solely by its weakest element; we must seek to reinforce the positive and encourage repentance and remorse as part of growth.

The Oklahoma City bomber, Tim McVeigh was an altar boy in the nearest Catholic church to my home in Buffalo, NY where I used to live.  On the one hand, he was the worst mass murderer in US history.  On the other hand, prior to Desert Storm, he was known to be a very normal and sensitive guy who was a delight to be around.  I talked to his classmates and  women he dated who had nothing but positive comments about him.  The news media look for signs of future evil in the criminal's past.  TV and movies have misled us into an overly black and white view of good and evil.   

So what happened to Tim?  No one knows.  It seems clear that Tim was traumatized by war and made some bad decisions that transformed his character for the worse. It seems that a couple of bad decisions can trigger self-justifying rationalizations that dump us on the path to an evil character. 

Perhaps this insight is a key to retrievals from the lower astral planes.  Perhaps the "trick" is to induce a couple of "holy decisions" that transform the psyche's longings in a more positive direction.  We must not underestimate the possibility of sudden spiritual transformation.

Don

I entered this thread suggesting that evil does not exist. It is an illusion of the "ego mind" which needs duality for orientation. I suggest the what we might describe as evil is varying degrees of absense of 'love'.

One of the great discoveries of Monroe is that Hate is not the opposite of Love. Love has no opposite.

S.

Perhaps 'love' is better represented by the phrase, "First, do no harm."

heisenberg69 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2010 at 5:25pm:


That's a good way to look at it. The amazing thing is that "Love" is always there... it is the very motor of creation... the 'ego' in order to maintain its existence must create an imaginary opposite... that is... to establish duality... but, it somehow forgets after a time that the opposite was an artifice... an imaginary (illusion) reference point to create dimension... to have a "reality"... then, it gets trapped in the web... “Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”... then the whole of our spiritual path is removing the imaginary clouds we placed over the shining glow of Love that is always there waiting to be seen.

I had a lifetime in which I did terrible things to ascend illegitmately to the throne... but, I had to suppress 'love' to commit those crimes... you can't murder people you love... then I decided I was personally was not loveable... I am just beginning to come out of that trap... of course I am loveable... I AM... pure love... always was and always will be .... now I have to reconnect with the ability to love myself and others... and everything... all is one... the universe is one... it is Love...

S.

Mathew-

you make a good point; even if we speculate that evil is ultimately based on an illusion what difference does this make on a practical basis when faced with it.

One reason I am reticent to use the evil label is that there is a temptation when faced with an example of evil to shrug one's shoulders and just consign it to one of those mysterious phenomenon we'll never understand.But when we call someone evil we usually are referring to a person pscychologists would describe as psychopathic (sociopathic) i.e. someone who lacks empathy with another's pain. But the fact is that psychologists do know of influences on its genesis e.g. childhood abuse. I grew up with a boy whose later actions could be described as evil and I personally witnessed some of the childhood abuse he recieved as a boy.I am not saying all abused children become psychopaths but certain individuals may, being more vulnerable to such treatment.

If we are serious about making the world a better place the more we know about the genesis of evil the better, so we can treat it before it develops. I'm not convinced bandying the  word around furthers that cause as it creates a them and us situation; when in fact they may be us in different circumstances. This is not to say we can't identify behaviour we wish to move away from and then take the appropriate measures.

Someone whose work I respect, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, was quoted as saying that there is a little bit of Hitler in all of us. I know what she meant.

D

Seraphis1 wrote on Feb 20^th, 2010 at 8:34pm:



Where to begin, ok Seraphis, the term argument is used here as another word for discussion - sort of saying "make your case."

Next, your ideas of hells and rescue attempts are not, in my humble opinion quite accurate.  The self created hells are quite real, and the people in them place themselves there... not because of illusions/delusion.  Their minds place them there.  They are following their basic nature at the time.  If and when they are ready to break out of the mold, only then and at that time would a helper be able to get through to them.  It is not a matter of a helper pulling one in a hellish realm aside and saying "Pssstt....hey buddy, this ain't real, come with me."  No.  The person has to have decided that the envirnoment doesn't suit them any longer.   That there is something else, or something isn't quite right. 

When the person is acting opposite to love, no amount of reason or logic will make them look up and say "oh yeah, I only think I enjoy maiming and killing, I don't really." 

We can agree that consciousness comes from God, that evil/bad means a soul going in the opposite direction to God and love, but as I said before, there is still the practical existence of the state of evil.  Either on earth or in the spiritual hells, it is real as long as the person's nature/thought and action support it.  You can't poof evil away by projecting love onto it.  You can't turn a person in a hell "good," by wishing it; they have to help themselves. 

Also, by many reports, when a loving soul drops into a hellish realm, they get confused, clouded, even angry or mean themselves.  That is why when helpers drop to that level, they do it only for the briefest periods of times. 


Matthew

I think you're both right - evil is an illusionary state but you can't make people people evolved i.e. less 'evil'. If you could evolved entities would have made us all saints by now !

heisenberg69 wrote on Feb 21^st, 2010 at 4:25pm:


Is it our job to make people evolve or to just be available to those who cross our paths and engage us in a way that might lead to a meeting of the minds.

I will add this one probe achieving 'enlightenment' is so powerful that it changes the overall level of spiritual awareness exponentially orders of magnitude thruout the universe.

S