Conversation Board - The True Nature of Reincarnation

recoverer

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #75 - Jan 8^th, 2010 at 8:06pm

Spooky:

Let's say two people are debating about whether or not global warming is true. Their openess of mind wouldn't be dependent upon the quantum principles that make up their bodies. It would be dependent upon whether they have reached the point where they can use their minds in a way that isn't impulsive, and whether they have developed the ability to question the conclusions their minds have come to.

Here's another example. Say I really need to speak to my boss but she isn't available. Either I can listen to the bratty part of myself and become angry, or I can be reasonable and realize that the World doesn't rotate around me, and sometimes other people are busy for reasons that go beyond my little universe.

Because I have a sufficient amount of self awareness, I've found that in different circumstances I have the option of listening to what my ego and higher self have to say (I don't mean I receive a message from my disk), and choose according to what makes the most sense. When I do this, it seems as if there is a part of me that is independent of the two.

It is rather self defeating to conclude that we don't have free will. I've found that non-dual gurus with their nihilistic non life-affirming way of thinking often think in such a way. As a result they don't take responsibility for their state of consciousness. They assume that as long as they assert that they are only their pure awareness, they will be okay.

A day will come (perhaps when they are in the spirit World) when they will find that it does matter what their state of mind is. If there are psychological issues they haven't taken care of, these issues will determine where they end up.

Regarding the two slit experiment, I'm no expert, but I've always had the feeling that perhaps subatomic particles have a nature that can appear as either a particle or a wave without being either. Perhap they go through two slits as they do because their nature, which can't be defined or limited by a 3d way of thinking, enables them to go through two slits at a time.

I've found that one part of my energy can interfere with another part of my energy. Perhaps one part of a subatomic particle's energy can interfere with another part of its energy and create a wave pattern.

Why do some physicists insist that the issue has to be defined within the particle/wave conundrum?

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DocM

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #76 - Jan 9^th, 2010 at 5:15am

Hi Spooks,

I get what you are saying, and how you don't like the phrase free will, but still disagree on the presuppositions you make. To say that our decisions are based on our past history and experiences is not to say that these decisions are pre-scripted. We do have unique histories, tendencies and circumstances. Our choices though can not be predicted from our past histories, however with any certainty, only with probability. I hate to belabor the point, but it is important. My consciousness is a pin point of perception which sees itself as an individuality and yet part of God and the cosmos at the same time. This initial premise "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am) is at the basis of all individuals.

The entire basis for spiritual progression is, in my opinion made by choices. If you don't like the semantics, and don't believe that these choices are made freely by the individual conscious being, that is your opinion. But in the purest sense, that means you believe all our actions are pre-scripted, ordained and written-in-stone before we decide, and I disagree with that premise. Even if, we assume tendencies and probabilities and accumulated consequences from past actions, I know, at a core level, that this "me" or "I" that is out there can and do make unpredictable choices, which causes a varied and at some stage unique chain of change and evolution. If you feel that it is pre-scripted, that is fine. We agree to disagree.

Matthew

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Seraphis1

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #77 - Jan 9^th, 2010 at 7:54am

DocM wrote on Jan 9^th, 2010 at 5:15am:

Hi Spooks,

I get what you are saying, and how you don't like the phrase free will, but still disagree on the presuppositions you make. To say that our decisions are based on our past history and experiences is not to say that these decisions are pre-scripted. We do have unique histories, tendencies and circumstances. Our choices though can not be predicted from our past histories, however with any certainty, only with probability. I hate to belabor the point, but it is important. My consciousness is a pin point of perception which sees itself as an individuality and yet part of God and the cosmos at the same time. This initial premise "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am) is at the basis of all individuals.

The entire basis for spiritual progression is, in my opinion made by choices. If you don't like the semantics, and don't believe that these choices are made freely by the individual conscious being, that is your opinion. But in the purest sense, that means you believe all our actions are pre-scripted, ordained and written-in-stone before we decide, and I disagree with that premise. Even if, we assume tendencies and probabilities and accumulated consequences from past actions, I know, at a core level, that this "me" or "I" that is out there can and do make unpredictable choices, which causes a varied and at some stage unique chain of change and evolution. If you feel that it is pre-scripted, that is fine. We agree to disagree.

Matthew

The best way to look at free will is this. They say if you get caught in quicksand, don't struggle, if you relax you will tend to float to the top... the physical universe is like quicksand... when you decide to float to the top that is exercising free will...

S.

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spooky2

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #78 - Jan 9^th, 2010 at 10:44pm

Quote Recoverer:
"Let's say two people are debating about whether or not global warming is true. Their openess of mind wouldn't be dependent upon the quantum principles that make up their bodies. It would be dependent upon whether they have reached the point where they can use their minds in a way that isn't impulsive, and whether they have developed the ability to question the conclusions their minds have come to."

Yes, true. But what you are saying would not be possible if these persons had free will, as this will then would be independent from what they have learnt, what they are, from their personality etc. Otherwise their will won't be free. That's why I say "free will" is incompatible with a person (when saying "someone has a free will").

Quote Recoverer:
"Because I have a sufficient amount of self awareness, I've found that in different circumstances I have the option of listening to what my ego and higher self have to say (I don't mean I receive a message from my disk), and choose according to what makes the most sense. When I do this, it seems as if there is a part of me that is independent of the two."

I again agree with your description! You listen to the voices inside you and then you (or, as you say, your independent part of you) carefully weigh arguments and you choose the option which makes most sense. But this would be impossible when a free will comes into play. Because a FREE will would be independent from all your pondering and reasoning; if your will, your choice is a result of your reasoning, then by definition it is not free, but just the result of your reasoning! That's why I see it as impossible that a person "has" free will. In the moment the free will occurs, the person vanishes.

Quote Recoverer:
"It is rather self defeating to conclude that we don't have free will. "

The propagation of a free will is self-defeating! Because if you ascribe a person a free will it means this person isn't responsible for his/her will, because the will is free. The composition that someone has a free will is contradictive. A person, with his/her experiences, traits, beliefs, knowledge etc. would be unable to make own choices when a free will would take over, this term is contradictive because a person's free will would be free from that person. So, let's just say "a person's will" and cut the "free" out.
And this issue hasn't anything to do with non-duality gurus or so. For Sylvester and Parsons "free will" is a meaningless phrase because they say time isn't real, and then pretty much everything is meaningless. My point is a different one, I don't deny the existence of time. Philosopher Kant has seen the impossibility of freedom in a similar way (but his "solution" isn't a solution but nonsense, as it undermines his own system, I can't really recommend his "critic of pure reason" unless you're a philosophy student). From my position, I'm not propagating something which could be so or not so, I'm trying to describe a contradiction.

Quote Recoverer:
"Regarding the two slit experiment, I'm no expert, but I've always had the feeling that perhaps subatomic particles have a nature that can appear as either a particle or a wave without being either. Perhap they go through two slits as they do because their nature, which can't be defined or limited by a 3d way of thinking, enables them to go through two slits at a time."

One result of the double slit experiment is that something can be a particle and a wave AT THE SAME TIME. I'm too much rooted in space and time to find that not mind-buggling

.
-------------------------------------------------------

Matthew:

The non-prescriptedness, or unpredictability of decisions (and the future in general) doesn't depend on the existence of a free will. The world can be unpredictable without a free will. Whether unpredictable or predictable depends on the structure of the world, if it consists entirely of something which has exact values or not. In the first case it would be predictable for an entity which knows all those values and can process it aka the Laplace Demon (although I'm not completely certain about that regarding the so called three-body-problem), in the latter case it would be unpredictable. People who interprete quantum mechanics in a certain way conclude that the world is unpredictable (on a cosmological level though it might be possible to make a good prognosis).

So, we have to separate the "free will" problem from the question of the predictability of the future, whether it's open or already written.

Quote Matthew:
"Even if, we assume tendencies and probabilities and accumulated consequences from past actions, I know, at a core level, that this "me" or "I" that is out there can and do make unpredictable choices, which causes a varied and at some stage unique chain of change and evolution."

Yes, I have no problem with that. That's not the point. The point is that I can't see how "free will" is compatible with what you said here. When we, or our core self, make choices, these are the choices of that self. Now, if these choices would be a result of a free will, those choices won't be anyone's choices, it is impossible that an entity which make choices (and insofar is in time) does have a free will, as exactly this freedom (by definition, that's why it's called free) makes this will independent (therefore independent as well of that person's history and all his/her attributes), and cannot anymore ascribed to such an entity. It is a contradictio in adiecto.

Spooky

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I Am Dude

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #79 - Feb 27^th, 2010 at 9:18pm

Don

Quote:

My point in this thread is that reincarnation (linear or parallel) lacks evidence that cannot be interpreted with equal validity as spirit mergers or clairvoyance.

And how do you interpret individuals with uncanny similarities with their "past life incarnations"? Those who are able to accurately provide details about real individuals who have lived in the past who they claim have been their past lives, and the parallel traits these individuals share, such as nearly identical physical, mental, and emotional traits, including scars, marks, and diseases in the exact locations the "past life" incarnation had a significant injury. Surely this is more than just a "spirit merger."

One question for you. What is the purpose of these spirit mergers, or as ES calls them, possessions.. why do these spirits do this? And are you saying that every person alive is a "victim" of these spirit mergers? Because almost every individual put under hypnosis is able to recall having a past life.

And what of the strikingly identical accounts of the afterlife, namely the life in between lives, which are prevalent among these subjects? These individuals describe the planning and preparation of beginning a new incarnation after they are through with a previous one. Although most of these individuals are completely unaware that such a thing even is possible before hand, they all describe nearly identical key aspects of this experience. This is something that neither of your "explanations" prove wrong, and must be taken seriously if one is going to examine this issue honestly.

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usetawuz

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #80 - Feb 28^th, 2010 at 12:04am

DocM wrote on Jan 9^th, 2010 at 5:15am:

Hi Spooks,

To say that our decisions are based on our past history and experiences is not to say that these decisions are pre-scripted. We do have unique histories, tendencies and circumstances. Our choices though can not be predicted from our past histories, however with any certainty, only with probability. I hate to belabor the point, but it is important. My consciousness is a pin point of perception which sees itself as an individuality and yet part of God and the cosmos at the same time. This initial premise "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am) is at the basis of all individuals.

Matthew

Absolutely...my resonating bell is ringing from the rooftops.

Free will is predominant in all we do. There are probabilities, but those are based on our past expressions of free will, and do not lock us into a pre-ordained pattern of behavior. If it did, there would be no hope for change and development.

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spooky2

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #81 - Feb 28^th, 2010 at 11:59pm

Quote usetawuz:
"There are probabilities, but those are based on our past expressions of free will, and do not lock us into a pre-ordained pattern of behavior."

When our acts are based on our further acts then they're not free. It's cause and effect. I once had a discussion about this with forum member dave_a_mbs, and we could agree in this that we can insofar speak of "free will" that there has been an initial act which started it all, before there was time, and we could call this initial act "free", and only in reference to this initial act the following acts could be called "free", but not in respect to the chain of cause and effect in which every act within time is embedded.

Spooky

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heisenberg69

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #82 - Mar 1^st, 2010 at 2:24am

Spooky-

when we talk about free will the important point seems to be - free of what ? You seem to be using a very specific form of the word 'free' as in free of all influence ; this seems to suggest a kind of quantum randomness. Surely no one who believes in free will believes that their choices are free of all influences/motivations. Maybe the belief in relative free will would be more accurate ...

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spooky2

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #83 - Mar 2^nd, 2010 at 10:03pm

Not in my view, Heisenberg. When we imagine what a "relative free will" would be like, we either come to the result that there's only cause and effect (while we still make decisions, only not freely) or we come to a sort of hybrid-free will, which in part is influenced by the past, and in part not, the latter then is the "free" part. But then the same problem would occur with this free part. It cannot be ascribed to a person being within time, it is without cause, without reason, and may this free part be as small as it may. This free part actually would be totally random due to it's independence.

Spooky

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betson

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #84 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 12:33pm

Hi

To know whether our wills are free are not, it seems we would have to know the extent of our will. The extent of a will seems like it would have to include the influence of that will. How could we ever know that ?
I'm comparing, for example, when my will has an argument with my husband's will Angry

as compred with a butterfly's will to flap its wings -- that we've heard can start a tide that creates a hurricane across a sea.

If I wanted to absolutely free my will from other influences, it seems that I would also have to keep it from influencing others. Since its influence on others is an aspect of physics that I cannot control, this seems impossible. and don't ask me to silence my will by committing suicide because I've been near some suicides and no way have they stopped their influences on others' wills.

I just don't see how this can be resolved. Huh

Bets

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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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I Am Dude Super Member Offline Posts: 1462 Gender:	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #85 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 1:49pm I resurrected this thread to address an issue I have with Don's line of thinking regarding this subject (Reincarnation - NOT free will! There is another thread to discuss free will! Stick to it!) Don has craftily avoided responding to my rebuttal, even ignoring my personal messages to him. I want answers Donny boy!
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heisenberg69

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #86 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 3:35pm

Hi Spooky,

I admire your philosophical honesty; you go with where your reasoning takes you even if the conclusion may not be what you want.

You offer up a straitforward proposal; either 'free will' is the product of a causative chain (not free) or its the product of randomness (not willed). I would offer up another view for perusal.

In the 'relative' realm which we are familiar with it is at least possible that the choices we make are fundamentally not computable from prior causation ( ie non-algorithmic) due to feedback processes .For example the belief that life is preordained will loop back and affect your choices...which will affect your beliefs etc etc. Things are not totally random either in that they are predictable to a certain extent; for example the chance that I'll choose to go to work tomorrow might be 99.99%....in a years time that might drop to 50%. Its a bit like trying to predict the weather or tomorrow's stock markets - not totally random or predictable.For all intents and purposes from my perspective I feel I have free will.

If we move up to a higher perspective (God's eye view ?) it may well be that so called free will is not free. But I suspect that from that viewpoint the idea that we as individuals could operate as separate from eachother would be a bit like my arm declaring independance from my hands ! I think this echoes Bets's point.

Anyway its fun to muse...

Dave

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heisenberg69 Super Member Offline Posts: 504 England Gender:	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #87 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 3:37pm Sorry Dude just read your message !
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I Am Dude Super Member Offline Posts: 1462 Gender:	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #88 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 4:23pm Don't sweat it. Your free will allowed you to make the decision to post your message!
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spooky2

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #89 - Mar 3^rd, 2010 at 10:57pm

Don:
Please have a look at Dude's latest posts on this thread.

Dude: Sorry, I can't stop and try to keep it short. (But when even you are adding fuel to the fire...

)

Bets:
It seems to be common sense that our will is influenced, and is influencing. All who contributed to this discussion have admitted this (with the modification that there is still somehow, somewhere a portion of freedom). What you said seems to me to reflect the cause-and-effect nature of will. And I agree, we neither can comprehend all effects of our will, nor all things which have influenced our will. So, when I read along your lines, we could say we even don't know our own will very well in this extended meaning.

Heisenberg:
What you wrote about predictability is true, but is not really resolving the core problem of "a person's free will". Such a free will, in my view, must necessarily be a chaotic foreign object within any structure which contains rules, and therefore cannot be a property of a person in the common meaning.

Spooky

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