Conversation Board - The True Nature of Reincarnation

spooky2 Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 2368	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #45 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 11:57pm I never have understood how "free will" fits together with "cause and effect". So, to me, "free will" is an empty phrase. It just makes no sense. Spooky
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Seraphis1

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #46 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 12:51am

DocM wrote on Jan 6^th, 2010 at 10:58pm:

Hi Seraphis,

I'm a full believer in Free will, but not in being bound helplessly to the wheel of karma. You see, I disagree with your premise. We always have free will; the freedom to act lovingly or hatefully in any situation. The more lovingly we act, the more love is given to us. The more unlovingly we act, the more misery comes to us. In that sense, the law of Karma holds. However, your premise that one who acts ruthlessly gives up free will rings false to me. More likely, one who acts hatefully, ruthlessly will continue to do so, and will use free will to confine themselves into environments both on earth and in the afterlife, where they can continue to act that way.

However, we are perceptive thinking beings. We are bound only in that we don't exert our intent and will in a positive way. There is no prior action that permanently binds us. We can forgive ourselves. Seek the forgiveness of others, and move on. Make new choices, and the karmic merry-go-round is broken.

Free will is there, always, unless we forget and lose our ability to move on.

Matthew

Hi Doc: Of course, free will is always there but you can only commit a crime against humanity and get away with it (i.e... not incur a karmic reaction) is if you can commit the crime without attachment to it... but, that is not why one commits the crime... one commits the crime to gain something you value... thus one is attached and ...the law of Karma... kicks in... you still have free will but now it is tangled in a web of action and reaction...

S.

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DocM

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #47 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:38am

Seraphis,

Yes, for those unloving souls who exercise free will in that direction, there is cause and effect, but they still operate under the free will to act lovingly or not. Karma is broken when they change their choices, invoke grace, forgiveness, make amends and move on. Not saying that the individual would do it, or find it easy to do if they chose to act in a heinous fashion. But acting poorly is still a choice.

Spooky, cause and effect is simply a universal law. Choice is the action and decision of intent. Karma is then the logical consequence of it.

M

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I Am Dude Super Member Offline Posts: 1462 Gender:	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #48 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:55am Doc I agree. Don Interesting you respond to the "easier" posts, yet seemingly ignore mine. Maybe you're doing some research. I'm still waiting for your reply to my inquiries/rebuttal.
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heisenberg69

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #49 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 6:29am

I must admit I don't really see why reincarnation is such an crux issue anyway. Personally I don't have big feelings either way.

I would just like to point out that if we are ultimately derived of one source (God? ) then we are all individuated consciousnesses of that one source (one of the many faces of God ? ). From this it follows that all personalities are a subset of that One, albeit ones at different stages of conscious awareness/awakening. The only difference between an enlightened person and a Hitler say, is that level of conscious awareness/awakening. There is no need for reward/punishment (ultimately) in this schema only evolution (although karma may conceivably act as a teaching aid).

Brian Keenan encapsulates this idea in his book 'An Evil Cradling' about his exeriences in captivity in Lebanon. He reaches an epiphany when he's receiving a fearful beating from a young militant after a long period of abuse. He realises that young man is himself , albeit a fear-filled version, and feels pity for him. I think this may have been the level of consciousness that Jesus demonstrated judging by the words of the Gospels.

Dave

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Rondele

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #50 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 1:35pm

Dave-

I agree. Even if reincarnation is true, it's really irrelevant anyway since the overwhelming majority of us have no conscious memory of having lived before. Therefore, it's the same as being born only once.

We might as well debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It's about as productive as the reincarnation debate.

R

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Seraphis1

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #51 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 1:54pm

DocM wrote on Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:38am:

Seraphis,

Yes, for those unloving souls who exercise free will in that direction, there is cause and effect, but they still operate under the free will to act lovingly or not. Karma is broken when they change their choices, invoke grace, forgiveness, make amends and move on. Not saying that the individual would do it, or find it easy to do if they chose to act in a heinous fashion. But acting poorly is still a choice.

Spooky, cause and effect is simply a universal law. Choice is the action and decision of intent. Karma is then the logical consequence of it.

M

Hi doc: That is the point of reincarntion to teach you when you touch a hot stove you get burnt don't do it.

S.

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heisenberg69

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #52 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:24pm

Rondele-

indeed, you could in fact argue that conscious reincarnational knowledge would act as an impediment ; bringing unwanted baggage to bear on this life, when what we need is a 'clean slate'. Personally, I want to give this life my undivided attention and so shielding from reincarnational memories (supposing it exists) is a blessing.

Dave

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I Am Dude Super Member Offline Posts: 1462 Gender:	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #53 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:36pm Rondele Quote: We might as well debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin Personal experience has shown me that angels are assigned to one and only one pin head in heaven. There is irrefutable evidence that they dance the macarena. I will debate this to the death.
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juditha

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #54 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:48pm

hi i had a miscarriage in 1973 and i always beleived that it was a little girl i lost ,so this medium said that it was a girl and spirit had called her teresa

teresa said through the medium that she wants to reincarnate on to the eath plain again but not until she has been reunited with me in heaven and her sister dad and brothers

i felt sad about this as i dont like to think as soon as i reunite with my little girl,i'm going to lose her again when she reincarnates.

love and god bless love juditha

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Rondele Ex Member	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #55 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:53pm <<There is irrefutable evidence that they dance the macarena.>> Dude- That's right, unless of course they were reincarnated as rap artists and are now breakdancing on the pins. That however might require more than one pin per rapper...... R
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Cricket

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #56 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 3:21pm

i felt sad about this as i dont like to think as soon as i reunite with my little girl,i'm going to lose her again when she reincarnates.

Juditha - she said "until", but that doesn't mean she'll go immediately thereafter. There's a lot of time over there, and she can wait to reincarnate 'til it suits, I'm guessing.

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Berserk2

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #57 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 3:29pm

Matthew,

I don't believe in reincarnation. But I consider your perspective on the related issues most rational. The fact that New Agers misconstrue early Christian and Jewish perspectives as reincarnation is not directly relevant to the question of the reality of reincarnation. I just want reincarnationists to be honest and intellectually responsible about which sources are and are not relevant to the issue.

In Howard Storm's NDE, Jesus implcitly denies the doctrine of reincarnation, but then concedes that reincarnation is possible for a very few cases. My critique addresses the ambiguous evidence for the doctrine, not the question of a few exceptions.

As I have mentioned, Origen (225 AD) is the early Christian poster boy for reincarnationists. Yet he repudiates reincarnation several times! However, his teaching about the soul's pre-existence allows that souls pre-exist in a variety of pre-earth planes and enter bodies appropriate to those planes. Though he rejects the notion of earthlyreincarnation, his position opens the possibility that reincarnation on earth is at least a theoretical possibility. If we can acquire bodies appropriate to different world planes, why can't we do so on our planet as well? My critique merely urges an open mind towards alternative theories; it does not categorically reject reincarnation.

The New Age misinterpretation of the biblical and early Christian evidence has blinded them to an important source of support for past life exploration. In fact, the Catholic church has never officially condemned reincarnation at any of their definitive councils! As a result, some Catholics insist that they can be true Catholics in their doctrine and still believe in reincarnation.

Don

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Rondele Ex Member	Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation Reply #58 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 4:02pm Don- What exactly do you mean by "pre-earth planes?" R
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DocM

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Re: The True Nature of Reincarnation
Reply #59 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 4:40pm

I assume that the pre-earth planes in judaeo-christian thought are places like the "Guff," sort of like chambers of premade souls with the potential to be us, who have not yet been incarnated or come into being.

Of course I'd be interested in hearing Don's take on that. I've never been very satisfied with the ideas of storage areas of potential souls. Something doesn't quite work in that concept for me...

M

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