Conversation Board - A skeptical approach to the afterlife

DocM

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A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Oct 21^st, 2009 at 1:58pm

Dr. Susan Blackmore is a well regarded scientist and skeptic of psi phenomenon, OOBs and the afterlife. Apparently, she began her studies into the paranormal, and then concluded after many years of study and experimentation that she had found no evidence for the continuation of consciousness.

I am enclosing a link to an article from her website which details why, several years ago, she gave up on studying the afterlife and paranormal events. I think it is worth a read, because the reader gets the distinct feeling that she is truly sincere and not a skeptic for the sake of being "contrary."

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:sC5g-uyu4LMJ:www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapte...

The fascinating part of this paper is how she describes that upon failing her well designed tests of the paranormal, those who believed in their "powers," refused to accept the results, and rationalized why they failed to show that they could do what they said they would. Paradoxically, they called her (the investigator) "closed minded" for not accepting that they would be right.

I bring this paper up, and the questions it raises specifically with regard to Don's requests for more "verification" of afterlife experiences on the earth plane.

While I myself believe in the survival hypothesis of the soul after death, I must admit a certain admiration for the Susan Blackmores out there, who are trying to scientifically assess various claims and see if they can be reproduced or shown conclusively to be "real" or something that happened as a matter of pure chance. Of course, there are many perspectives on this discussion, the least of which is agreeing on what is "real," and whether or not reproducible physical evidence can ever prove a spiritual phenomenon.

Matthew

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recoverer

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #1 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:32pm

I'm not able to get the link to come up while at work.

Nevertheless, the results of what she found shows that a person needs to find out through his (or her) own experience whether or not there are realms of existence beyond the physical universe, because scientific studies can miss the mark.

Even if a scientific study ends up being supportive of the existence of non-physical realms, the consideration of such evidence isn't the same as a person having his own experiences. I believe I have been very dicriminating about my experiences, even though there have been times when keen discrimination wasn't needed, because what I understood was so clear and certain.

Or to put it another way, there is no book or study that can duplicate what I have learned through my own experience. The best way to find out if chocalate tastes good is to try it.

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Rondele

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #2 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:34pm

Matthew-

Blakemore is a serious researcher who, at least to date, has failed to come up with verifiable evidence that the afterlife exists.

She may be right. At least we know she isn't one of the afterlife kool aid drinkers that seem to populate the internet more and more these days.

I for one respect her, even if her findings don't comport with what so many people want to hear.

These days folks can find support for all sorts of wacky beliefs. For example, if you don't believe in the holocaust, you can find all kinds of websites that will support that viewpoint.

Or if you think 9/11 was really the result of an ingenious plot by the evil George Bush, you can just type in 9/11 Truthers on google, and you will find plenty of websites that will assure you that you are correct, elementary logic be damned. Because logic doesn't count for much anymore. The intellect has taken a back seat to the emotions.

Pick almost anything. You think we really didn't land on the moon in 1969? Not to worry, others have the same opinion.

In other words, common sense and logical reasoning have pretty much gone out the window. And for fear of damaging Johnny's self-esteem, who's to say he (or she) is wrong?

Kudos to Dr. Blackmore. What we need is more folks with her bent of mind. Not to undermine beliefs, but to challenge them and to make people think with their heads as opposed to conclusions based on wish fulfillment.

Lord knows, we have enough lollipop heads as it is in the age of google.

R

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Beau Super Member Offline Posts: 1176 Greenville SC Gender:	Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife Reply #3 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:35pm I am familiar with Susan Blackmore and I agree that she has these findings and that she is the real deal. I used to think that perhaps she was simply blinded by science but now I think it helps keep the 'psi uncertainty principle" in tact in this "earthly situation".
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DocM Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 2168	Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife Reply #4 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:37pm this is the weblink I found her article on: if others can't read it, let me know... http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:sC5g-uyu4LMJ:www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapte...
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recoverer

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #5 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:41pm

When Susan Blackmore's body stops functioning and she finds that she still exists, should she trust her scientific conclusions, or should she trust her experience? If she trusts her scientific conclusions, somebody might have to do a retrievel.

Perhaps before a person tries to tell people that the afterlife doesn't exist, he or she should try to find out through his or her own experience.

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DocM Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 2168	Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife Reply #6 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 2:56pm Albert, If you read the link, you'll see she made no firm conclusions, but states why she is giving up. It is a fascinating read, and important. M
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heisenberg69

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #7 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 3:15pm

Hi,

I think healthy open-minded scepticism is to be welcomed but, to express a personal opinion, I don't believe Susan Blackmore fits that description. Her brightly-coloured hair is a well-known sight to the British public as she tends to be the resident expert 'sceptic' wheeled out when paranormal phenomena is on the media agenda even though she no longer researches the paranormal.

Why do I believe she's not open-minded ? Partly because I have found she has used a rather 'spread your bets' kind of normalistic explanation to phenomena she can't really explain in a way I don't find scientific.She also dismissed the Scole experiments out of hand without properly investigating them (although if I had'nt followed up her article I would'nt have known that ). I believe that her negative results may be due in part to the 'experimenter' effect where the experimenter can unwittingly influence an experiment i.e if they expect negative results they get negative results. Bruce has discussed this effect in his books.

See also: http://www.victorzammit.com/articleskeptics/1lawyerrebutspsychologynde.html

Dean Radin devotes a chapter to scepticism in 'The Conscious Universe' where he talks about Susan Blackmore's scepticism.

As always its best to your information from a wide range of sources as possible and make your own mind up - others might feel she is the real deal.

Dave

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pratekya Full Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 150 Los Angeles, CA Gender:	Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife Reply #8 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 3:49pm I really liked the article, thanks for sharing. I think this is just what we need more of; people who are truly striving to be open minded in their search for truth, rather than people trying to shore up their personal paradigms at the expense of truth.
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recoverer

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #9 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 4:04pm

I'll have to read the links when I'm at home.

When a person says they are being scientific I allow myself to be skeptical, because I've found that scientists can be biased, and as long as a person is biased, he or she is liable to twist the facts in a manner he or she considers favorable.

There are times when a person uses the claim that he or she is being scientific as a weapon, and therefore what they say is supposedly infallible.

If I would've listened to the scientists who state that back and neck pain is created by pinched nerves (and other physical causes), I'd still have lower back, upper back and neck pain. Fortunately, I found that psychological issues that cause energetic blocks play a big role in creating a number of pain related conditions. If you take care of the psychological issue and therefore clear the block, your pain will go away.

If a person such as Susan Blackmore had a NDE, she would view NDEs in quite a different way. As I said before, when you have such an experience it is quite clear, because what you experience can be way beyond what a mind that has had only physical experiences can create.

On a related note, even though I believe there are fraudulent mediums, I don't assume that they are all fraudulent, because if I can communicate with sprits, then why can't other people? I don't tend to receive messages for other people, because thus far it hasn't become my role in life to be a medium.

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DocM

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #10 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 4:18pm

Hi Albert,

Susan is an interesting person. She recently documented her experiments with Salvia (attention OOB dude), and in fact had a profound OOBE/NDE which is posted here:

http://near-death.com/experiences/experts09.html

The thing is, she discounts her experience later, when viewed with her scientific eye...........

M

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recoverer

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #11 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 5:08pm

Matthew:

Going by what she wrote about her experience, she didn't experience anything that was divine in nature. She simply experienced more and more of the physical universe. Considering that she used a drug, seance and ouija board, perhaps this isn't suprising.

I've had OBEs where I saw my surroundings as clear as I see this World and even clearer, yet my most convincing experiences were when I experienced divine being without seeing anything in particular. An experience with divine being touches you at a heart level that is hard to doubt.

When I had my night in heaven experience I understood that I was experiencing my existence as it really is, rather than what it seems to be while in this World. It was like, "oh yeah, how could I forget?" It also made perfect sense that the afterlife exists.

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Beau

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #12 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 5:11pm

Blackmore is not alone in having a OBE and then later doubting the event. I have read tons of stories about this and even work with a lady who had one but doubts that it was anything other than her brain causing the feeling. I have only had a few hints at an OBE, but those hints were very powerful and they keep me on my toes as I venture forth with the understanding that it may not happen until the last breath. I find the proof for and against pretty fascinating, but I have to put myself in the "for" category because of my own experiences slight though they are.

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All the world's a stage...whose stage?--that is the question!...or is it the answer...Who is on first.

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #13 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 5:52pm

I've found that after we have a non-physical experience that is certain while having it, our old way of thinking can click in and cause us to doubt it. There is no way that an old way of thinking can convince us of the validity of a non-physical experience. As best as we can, we need to remember what we understood and felt as we had an experience.

Beau wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 5:11pm:

Blackmore is not alone in having a OBE and then later doubting the event. I have read tons of stories about this and even work with a lady who had one but doubts that it was anything other than her brain causing the feeling. I have only had a few hints at an OBE, but those hints were very powerful and they keep me on my toes as I venture forth with the understanding that it may not happen until the last breath. I find the proof for and against pretty fascinating, but I have to put myself in the "for" category because of my own experiences slight though they are.

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Re: A skeptical approach to the afterlife
Reply #14 - Oct 21^st, 2009 at 6:21pm

Here's another way to look at it. When I experience this physical World, I don't experience it in a manner where I know that I'm experiencing an actual "physical World." I have to rely on what empirical evidence says.

On the other hand, when it comes to some of my spiritual experiences, I was certain to an extent that can't be found while I am in this physical World. During the spiritual experiences, there was an underlying knowing that came from a level of being that was beyond my individual mind.

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