I'll respond to OOBD first, as I've been busy and haven't had a chance to respond until now.
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(1) If you believe that the collective consciousness exists, and understand our relationship with it, then it should be obvious that (2) with practice, humans can learn to access this level.
1. I don't necessarily believe the collective consciousness exists; I think it’s honestly somewhat irrelevant compared to the questions of does God exist and does the afterlife exist, and what are they like. I am not opposed a collective consciousness existing however.
2. I don't think this is a valid argument; it is not at all obvious that we should be able to access what Alan is talking about here as biological beings
Quote: A sort of galactic, or universal internet, think how useful this source would be if only we could gain access to it when we want to?
Indeed, how useful it would be. The trouble is that there is a lack of verifiable evidence to support this that people have access to this whenever they consciously want to know anything. Seriously, if this was done at will, in a very demonstrable way, natural disasters would be avoided, national defenses and offenses would be bolstered, there would be billionaires made through the stock market and lotteries, and there would be people and nations flocking to these people to learn how to do just this. The absence of worldwide consistent verifiable evidence to support this seems to suggest that it is not obvious; in fact your point has not been made… following your logic actually, the fact that we don’t see these verifiable evidences of this is makes the case against your argument of a collective consciousness existing.
Quote:However, to claim that we cannot learn to access it consciously is wrong- a very limiting belief.
Interesting comment, as I am not making that strong claim that it cannot be accessed, if it exists. You are beating a straw man here. I do believe in intuition, and the spirit of God as it moves with knowledge to people. I do not believe that God is a means to our end of glorifying ourselves or satisfying our own curiosity however. The spirit of God does as it pleases, not the other way around. And like I said, I do not know if the collective unconscious actually exists (and think in the bigger scheme of things, it is not as important as other issues). I also tend to believe that Bruce Moen and Swedenborg have done some valid exploration, although I wouldn’t necessarily subscribe to everything they have written because of the inherent subjectivity of the experiences.
Quote: There is in fact much evidence which proves all of this.. doing a little research goes a long way sometimes- especially in a debate, or "rebuttal." I have read of many explorers of consciousness who access the collective consciousness levels. There have been many people in history who have predicted important future events. Nostrodomus comes to mind. There also exists government programs who utilize gifted individuals with psychic abilities to carry on top secret projects- many books have been written on them.
Um, lets see the evidence? Nostrodomus is your evidence? Maybe, but his quatrains were so lyrical and non specific that you could find quite a bit in there that was probably not intended. Governmental programs? I’ve read about a couple, and it seems like they are all discontinued; remote viewing and such, because they could not get constantly correct and verifiable results. It’s hard to launch a missile strike on someone’s impression if they may be wrong. Did these programs have some successes? Sure, but nothing like ‘with diligent practice is consciously accessible from the deep state of awareness’. In addition, if these programs were successful, wouldn’t we have our whole intelligence agency based on these principles? The absence of these natural consequences argues against your conclusion. Again, these are people who had some insight from beyond, but to be 100% correct and certain about these things would be making a strong claim that is not supported by the evidence.
Quote: What you would have to do is prove that none of this is true. Good luck.
Actually, again, I am not claiming that I know for certain that the collective unconscious doesn’t exist, so I do not need to prove that your evidence of Nostradomus and governmental programs are untrue. Nonetheless, I think I have shown that your support of Nostradamus and governmental programs as support of the existence of a collective unconscious are very weak at best, and definitely unconvincing.
Quote: As to saying that Allan is making up his experiences in other realms and with other consciousnesses... perhaps that's a bit harsh. But maybe you know something I don't.
I was saying that when it comes to unverifiable sources, we should “consider the source, and consider the claims”. Just because Alan is parroting a lot of New Age ideas that people already subscribe to doesn’t mean he is an authentic messenger. And as for knowing something that you don’t; I have shown in past posts how Alan has been a plagiarizer and when his veneer of sweet spirituality is stripped aside he is very nasty and arrogant, attacking me on grounds of being more important than I, attacking me because I would question him, and only later coming to admit that he was plagiarizing information. Unfortunately I can’t find the posts at the moment; maybe Alan deleted them. I also posted how I thought his spamming of crap had pretty much ruined this site that used to have actual seekers and critical thought going on as opposed to self aggrandizing claims and references to one’s own website such as “Alan McDougal Master of Wisdom” (I’m not making this up – do a search, it’s the title of his webpage). He later claimed he was joking when he made the name of the page.
On to Alan’s responses.
Quote: have you been to Timbuktu or even know it exists.
By analogy, I assume you are arguing that since I have not been to your realms you supposedly experienced then I don’t know if it exists or not. I agree. I would say there is no verifiable way to know if your realms exist or not with certainty, with a deductive argument. I would say we could make an inductive argument that it is unlikely your realms as you described them exist because I don’t believe you are a reliable messenger based on your past actions of arrogance and plagiarism.
Quote: You are in the wrong forum if you do not like the mysterious or supernatural
I am in the right forum at times when people who like the mysterious and supernatural also like critical reasoning and thought, which is not always the case here honestly. In reality, I would say I’m more in the spirit of Bruce Moen than you are, with his emphasis on testing and verifying to oneself that one’s own reactions are correct. In addition, since Bruce has an engineering background and I have a science background I think we simply share a similar way of looking at the world that doesn’t take everything at face value.
Quote: and if I am a liar so are the majority of members on this great forum of esoteric and metaphysical thinkers.
No, again not true, and good job trying to link yourself with the whole group as a bunch of victims against my evil questioning and critique, along with a healthy dose of flattery to the group.
Quote: Because pratekya has not been there he could suggest to people who have that they are lying or delusional
No, the difference is the city you are mentioning secondly is experimentally verifiable, which is different in kind, not degree, from your stories that casually include visiting other worlds with strange creatures.
Quote: On April 26, 2005, webmaster Kevin Williams received an email from near-death experiencer Alan McDougall informing him of a dream he had the previous night. The subject of the email was "Dream of a disaster from Alan" and this was the contents of the email (verbatim):
"Dear All, Last night the 26/4/2005 at 4 a.m. I dreamed of a disaster happening somewhere on the Earth at the time that the young peaches are still green in South Africa. This is between August and October. Love, Alan."
1. Wow talk about vague. Let me start us off, and I will do the same thing that Alan has done. Please write this down; note this – here is my prediction:
In the month of November and December of this year, there will be a disaster that happens somewhere in the world. Now in a couple months we can revisit this issue, and everyone can admit (if you buy this logic) that I am just as much of a predictor of the future as Alan is. Is this argument for real? I’m stunned… I have a son now and I would hope that by the time my son is in middle school he would be able to realize that this is an invalid argument. If you make your predictions vague enough, they will come true. Making extremely vague predictions couched in lyrical language does not prove you have psychic abilities, even if submitted to a website that is uncritical. While it may be fact that you have made an incredibly vague prediction, that doesn’t mean that your prediction is either useful or actually coming from anything but a self deluding mind that wants to be recognized as something great (Alan McDougal, Master of Wisdom).
This vague prediction directly contrasts with what Alan has been inferring that he is in contact with, which is as follows:
Quote: All information, both past, present, and future, exists in the ““Superconsciousness”.” The “Superconsciousness” (or Collective Mind) transcends time and space and with diligent practice, is consciously accessible from the deep state of awareness.
So how about something a little more useful? Like something like “Hey if you live in Louisiana or Florida or Mississippi, get out because a monster hurricane is coming your way, and it will hit about August 27th, 2005. This is what we should expect if people like Alan can tap into the superconsciousness that is consciously accessible. Again, the absence of such warnings (from anyone, not just Alan) is evidence that lends itself to the argument that this superconsciousness either doesn’t exist or people who access it aren’t consistently reliable enough to depend on.
I want to state or ask in conclusion:
1. I do believe that something like a superconsciousness might possibly exist, but I don’t assume it does or doesn’t a priori.
2. Is it possible to think critically, not automatically accept every story that someone wants to share and still explore ideas of the afterlife? I believe the answer is yes.
3. Is it reasonable to accept what everyone claims as their experience as objectively true?