Conversation Board - tell me that suicide cases are punished

hawkeye

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #15 - Sep 28^th, 2009 at 2:54pm

Iank, Do you feel that they need to be punished? Who are we to think that we have a right to pass judgment upon others because of our own personal beliefs? Who are we to say that one must not kill them-self? I fully agree with assisted suicide. When I am 90 years old and filling my pants, need someone to wipe my butt, feed me, wash me, etc...just let me go. In fact isn't a "living will or DNR" in fact a legal suicide?

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DavidLay

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #16 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 4:53am

supermodel wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 1:26am:

Romain wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 12:03am:

spooky2 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2009 at 9:53pm:

I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared.
I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad.
Spooky

Spooky;
Well said..

and to the point.

sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc.

People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it.

I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn.

PUL
Romain

Hey Romain,

I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are. Suicide seems like the only option sometimes (I know its not)

I have an 11 year old, and when I'm suffering from my pain, I think hard and long about things. She is the reason why I've been here this long.

Honestly, I can't make any promises, but I go to my scheduled therapy so that I can be there for my kid. We have a great relationship and I'd never want to leave her, but depressed people suffer from a chemical imbalance which makes that part of our brain, not think in a logical manner for a while.

I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome.

Hey Supermodel. I know how you feel. I have been in a suicidal state of mind plenty of times before. I think you summed it up well. It is kind of like a vortex that pulls you into this hopeless feeling and drowns out any other thoughts until its over. Having been close to the edge before I can say in retrospect I'm glad I didn't do it. And I'm glad you didn't either. I think a big part of it is knowing what it would do to my parents and the rest of my family. Plus Spooky's testimonial on that shows that we will also have to find out what our loved ones feel even if we do it.
And Juditha, I'm glad you were saved and referred. Good to see things looking up for you!

Peace,
David

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Volu

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #17 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 10:21am

There are those who manage to heal, however way is right for them. But some are not able to do this, and do indeed end one of their many roles on earth. What the loved ones feel is not only necessarily just love, but sure an an easy way to label it - put all emotions into a box and call it love. In this case love masks their selfishness, and maybe other feelings they don't want to see in themselves, by wanting someone to keep feeling the immense pain, because 'we love you'. There's a huge difference between wanting someone to be in your life, and demanding that they stay, with "love".

It's not their life to dictate, they got their own lives for that purpose.

If such a choice means the loved ones stop loving the spirit, it's yet another example of love being used instead of the truer feeling(s). Hurt perhaps. Whatever. Anyone who has been there, done that, KNOWS there's no way of disappearing without a trace. So, owning up to one's choices, seeing how loved ones feel, there's more than just love being painted in such a picture.

If one walks a mile in the "sewerside" shoes, and if those shoes are still filled by your temporary feet at the end of that mile, now you know. It's not a belief anymore.

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betson

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #18 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 3:00pm

Hi,
Volu,

From reading your last two posts on this thread it is obvious to me -- but possibly not to any newbies -- that although you are a 'full member' of this site, you don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge.

Never before here have I heard such a tone as used against Romain in your recent post to him. I'd just like to emphasise that your views are your own and maybe no one else's.

Have you ever attempted to follow the guidebook exercises so that you could contact someone who cares for you in the afterlife? If not, why not?

Bets

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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b2 Ex Member	Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished Reply #19 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 4:05pm I like this song. It reminds me that the bad times are just for a little while. I can see clearly now Johnny Nash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwJ-g0iJ6w&feature=related
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DocM

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #20 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 4:08pm

Volu and I have had some interesting exchanges (see the Psychedelic thread), but for my part, Bets, I enjoy the language, wit (when there is wit) and let the rest roll off.

I want more people who are non-believers or rogue questioners to post. Belief systems really don't matter. We should be able to share ideas and be civil about it.

We used to have a guy named Spitfire on the board. His posts created a lot of interesting discussions. Likewise there were several other posters who were well known for their "tone," over the years (a guy named Chumley a few years back).

For my part, I draw the line at personal insults, but the views with "tude" also make the discussions interesting.

Matthew

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Volu

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #21 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 8:22pm

Hola Bets,
"From reading your last two posts on this thread it is obvious to me -- but possibly not to any newbies -- that although you are a 'full member' of this site, you don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge."

First off, not going completely OT while answering you, here's a short observation about suicide: life goes on, both for the doer and the loved ones. So much for holding beliefs as a basis when there is knowledge to draw upon.

Maybe you could make a new topic where you name the ones that don't hold the beliefs that are the basis of afterlife knowledge? Maybe a less pretentious title for the topic though? Might want to start out with a definition first. Possibly any points on how to thread the needle, so that we can make the dress just how you like it. A handy tip is to cushion your words so that it gets so washed out no one gets offended, and the internal structures that make up for this feeling are kept comfortably in the dark. Straying from castrated language can also lead to a love retraction, which may very well have been a working title for a honest b-52s song.

"Never before here have I heard such a tone as used against Romain in your recent post to him."

Talking about tones, yours is a high-pitched one, one octave seem to be your range on the verbal piano, getting indignant when I dare (gasp) to bypass any PC filters. You can shush me all you want librarian, but I'll adjust my own volume. Though a ban will act as a mute button.

Bottom line. I don't care that you don't care for my tone. Now what?

"I'd just like to emphasise that your views are your own and maybe no one else's."

An interesting display of your love. And I'd like to emphasise *drumroll* that although one may like how some peppy words linger on the tongue, or how easy it is to play with them in the mind, unchallenged; without actually feeling it, phony express. You can say what you will about my response, but it's real.

"Have you ever attempted to follow the guidebook exercises so that you could contact someone who cares for you in the afterlife? If not, why not?"

It takes a docile follower (compared to being inspired) to make such a "tender" assumption. Keep plucking that chicken.

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betson

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #22 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 8:57pm

Hola Volu to you,

You're very facile with words ---this could be fun! Unfortunately you have a filter on what you read here that distorts what you're hearing and so I won't play this game very long.

You remind me of someone here I was very fond of. I'll not claim I loved him enough for your standards but I did love him and it took a long time to mourn his leaving. He wouldn't believe me either. Actually several guys have said my gentler nature doesn't show up much in my posts. Occasionally I regret that.
that mourned fellow also knew I'd worked in a library, oh psychic wonder. Actually it was a noisy nature center with books but close enough. -- R U him?

Volu, what's OT? In my day and age it meant Old Testament. I bet you young whippersnappers have a new meaning for it tho'.

Could you paraphrase why you apparently haven't tried following the Guidebook? I think we could get somewhere with that if I could better understand what you're saying.

Thanks, Bets

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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supermodel

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #23 - Sep 30^th, 2009 at 11:24pm

DavidLay wrote on Sep 30^th, 2009 at 4:53am:

supermodel wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 1:26am:

Romain wrote on Sep 28^th, 2009 at 12:03am:

spooky2 wrote on Sep 27^th, 2009 at 9:53pm:

I realised I had been full of grief that I did so, just like the ones I left behind, and who I, that's what it felt, betrayed, them, and our love we shared.
I only had to know what I had done. And it hurted so bad.
Spooky

Spooky;
Well said..

and to the point.

sorry to say that what you felt like...betrayed..yes you did betrayed the love you share with those members of family/friends/acquaintance etc.

People who suicide only care about themself and only themself not about the peoples who love them and care for them, otherwise they will have made the effort to talk to those they love before doing it.

I personally find it very hard to care for those suicidal especially when they leave young children s/husbands behind. I know i should not and try to change that, but it's hard to care in those circumstances..it's something i have to learn.

PUL
Romain

Hey Romain,

I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are. Suicide seems like the only option sometimes (I know its not)

I have an 11 year old, and when I'm suffering from my pain, I think hard and long about things. She is the reason why I've been here this long.

Honestly, I can't make any promises, but I go to my scheduled therapy so that I can be there for my kid. We have a great relationship and I'd never want to leave her, but depressed people suffer from a chemical imbalance which makes that part of our brain, not think in a logical manner for a while.

I hate that I have this, but its something that I'm dealing with and hopefully will overcome.

Hey Supermodel. I know how you feel. I have been in a suicidal state of mind plenty of times before. I think you summed it up well. It is kind of like a vortex that pulls you into this hopeless feeling and drowns out any other thoughts until its over. Having been close to the edge before I can say in retrospect I'm glad I didn't do it. And I'm glad you didn't either. I think a big part of it is knowing what it would do to my parents and the rest of my family. Plus Spooky's testimonial on that shows that we will also have to find out what our loved ones feel even if we do it.
And Juditha, I'm glad you were saved and referred. Good to see things looking up for you!

Peace,
David

Aww David thank you! PM me anytime you'd like!

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Supermodel....

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vagabound

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #24 - Oct 1^st, 2009 at 5:04am

@Volu:

Quote:

In this case love masks their selfishness, and maybe other feelings they don't want to see in themselves, by wanting someone to keep feeling the immense pain, because 'we love you'.

sorry if I interrupt your argument, just wanted to say thanx for these words. I agree, letting go shows more love than delusional ownership or covered up guilt. It's just like any divorce (with the difference that it's easier to push the guilt off to the one who left and in the long run it'd also be easier for most people to push aside the differences they had and say "I'm sorry").

Quote:

Love is irrelevant when faced with an emotional black hole.

Well, in this case, if love is actually given, but not received, there may not be relief after death, either, so suicide may or may not be the best idea.

just my two pence,
take care,
Vagabound

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vagabound

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #25 - Oct 1^st, 2009 at 7:28am

@supermodel:

Quote:

I have been suicidal many times and trust me, when you're in that frame of mind, you're not thinking rationally, but you "think" that you are.

Your thoughts are real and important at any moment, not only when they're compatible with other people's thoughts. Thoughts that go beyond just thinking about phrasing things right, usually show you what you're trying to hide or think you can't do. You were strong enough to quit hiding and to reach out for help. Even if you should find out that your therapist can't really help you, it's not the end of the world because it's all about the steps that you are taking to find where your happiness lays.
What I mean is trust yourself and take yourself seriously. The one who put you into this life was sure you can do it. And so am I.

Btw, feelings and thoughts are seldom rational. We couldn't even agree on what's best to have for breakfast.

take care,
Nastarowje,
Vagabound

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Volu

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #26 - Oct 1^st, 2009 at 2:20pm

Konnichiwa Bets,
"You're very facile with words ---this could be fun! Unfortunately you have a filter on what you read here that distorts what you're hearing and so I won't play this game very long."

I differ, no begging involved, but I sure do have my own set of filters and challenges. Depression/suicide is one challenge I have dealt with, internally and externally with others I care deeper for than words will do justice. I've slashed the wrists both the right and the wrong way, walked into the sea during the winter, and kicked the bucket twice. Still here though, and the black hole is gone, including the body's control in this particular area. A body controlled spirit would not consider suicide. Another piece in the escape velocity puzzle.

"You remind me of someone here I was very fond of. I'll not claim I loved him enough for your standards but I did love him and it took a long time to mourn his leaving. He wouldn't believe me either. Actually several guys have said my gentler nature doesn't show up much in my posts. Occasionally I regret that."

I bet you a warm hug that you'd be surprised at my gentle side. Your gentle side does indeed show through in the posts I've read. Otherwise wouldn't be bad neither. I'm brutally honest about what I view not to be heartfelt when the implication is otherwise, words I see tossed around like salad in the imaginary food for thought show. Though, in my naming of what I dub flat out to be bullshit, it's not a secret that I'm also reminded of my own bullshit. Been pretty good at the too gentle side, and now focus on adjusting my feisty side to a level I'm happy with. But I do still stand by my response, like it or not.

"that mourned fellow also knew I'd worked in a library, oh psychic wonder. Actually it was a noisy nature center with books but close enough. -- R U him?"

The only librarian with an interest for the beyond I've chatted with was on mIRC, a realtime chat program.

"Volu, what's OT? In my day and age it meant Old Testament. I bet you young whippersnappers have a new meaning for it tho'."

I meant that most of my post was off topic. Perhaps a mixture of white- and midnight snapper.

"Could you paraphrase why you apparently haven't tried following the Guidebook? I think we could get somewhere with that if I could better understand what you're saying."

Most of the time I like bits and pieces of what I read. Could be argued that I take in what fit my views and dump the rest. Could also be argued that I take in what works for ever important me, and leave what doesn't, though it seems to be common to eat the entire dish out of expectation, enriched by a heavy flavour of conformity. A combination perhaps, but I got what I need for now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpqASFNs5s

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Volu

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #27 - Oct 1^st, 2009 at 2:22pm

Vagabound,
"sorry if I interrupt your argument, just wanted to say thanx for these words."

Thanks for the thanks.

"Well, in this case, if love is actually given, but not received, there may not be relief after death, either, so suicide may or may not be the best idea."

My experience is to both give and receive, yet the hole was still there. I asked my girlfriend at the time to 'please, help me', but she answered she couldn't do that, that I had to do that on my own. Not at all what I wanted to hear, but exactly right, for me.

I see working through it while still dragging the body around as a better option, but not the only option. What may be discouraging for some leaving the body by suicide is the sudden bang on realization that it's impossible to not exist, but I can understand that for some it might be helpful to deal with their emotions without the body.

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betson

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Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished
Reply #28 - Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 10:28am

Mooshy-mooshy, Volu!

(Your link to Colosseum music led me back to the '60's when my studio partners and I played such music while we painted etc. Thank you! Hope that doesn't get my thoughts here all sentimental.)

Your 'path', now that I hear some of it, has my deep respect.
It's different than mine, where fear and terror were eventually overpowered by PUL. I know my path and the powers discovered there, just as you know yours.

I realize you don't like thinking without hard experience to back it up but now I'm conjecturing anyway --perhaps PUL is the perfect antithesis to fear, but perhaps not to all of soul's trials. Wondering that self-hate/destruction might suffocatingly ooze out from a hate-filled environment, and that the path from that h-hell might be more rational, like learning the limits of hate when confronted by the truly eternal. -- Too much philosophizing?

But I probably got off track again because the soul I see there is like a pearl, and the soul I hear in your post is friends with fire.

We haven't chatted before but I've learned alot from this encounter.

Bets

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare

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hawkeye Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 886 canada Gender:	Re: tell me that suicide cases are punished Reply #29 - Oct 2^nd, 2009 at 2:30pm Where were we? Oh Yes...there's no punishment for suicide, unless you punish yourself. That was it.
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