Hello all, new here. I believe I may have been conditioned by Christianity beyond repair. It says in the Bible that there is no consciousness after death. We all "sleep" until Jesus returns. There is nobody and nothing that can convince me that Jesus never existed, I believe Jesus/Horus was based on a historical person, but Christianity frightens me in some ways. Can you guys please share with me the reason(s) you're so confident about life after death and you're not being fooled by any "evil beings"?

I'd like to just add that when I was 12 I was clinically dead and I experienced nothing but blackness. No NDE or anything like that. Thoughts?

Vee wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2009 at 12:43am:


I don't doubt that's what you see, but some would argue you're being fooled by the power of demons.

Quantum Soul,

Although I am not christian, I am familiar with the Bible, and I do not see evidence that there is no consciousness after death.  There is a prominent christian scholar on this board, Don (Berserk2), and perhaps he could tell you more about it, in detail why the preacher/priest who told you this is mistaken, even by most accepted accounts of the Bible.

That being said, you can only convince yourself of the "survival hypothesis" by exploring.  For me, the first and strongest evidence came in deciding that you are more than your physical body.  Evidence from science, physics, and more directly EVP, and other means such as delving into near death experiences shows that we are more than our body.  If we indeed are more than flesh, it follows that spirit/soul may survive when the body falls away.  This type of exploration on your part can be done via reading, meditation, and other exploration including seeking out a religious community that is spiritually oriented.

Reading a copy of a book by Howard Storm's My Descent into Death may be the best way to approach this from a christian perspective.  Storm was not religious when he had a NDE with an extensive visit out of his body with Jesus and loved ones.

You are, unfortunately caught up in one person's belief system (the "eternal sleep" after death theory).  It is now time for you to learn about and explore what really happens.


Matthew

Quantum,

If you are going by scripture, try interpreting John 14:2.

"In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."

Many scholars take this as a direct mention in the Bible of Heaven awaiting the followers of Jesus.  The idea that this has to occur after a sleep of millenia is not substantiated in scritpure. 

A great webpage which debunks this is:

http://bible.org/seriespage/consciousness-soul-after-death

Matthew

Quantum Soul:

The doctrine of soul sleep overlooks Paul's experience of progressive revelation.  As a Pharisee, he believed in soul sleep because his Jewish milieu believed that body and soul are inseparable and one cannot survive death without a transformed physical body.  So Paul uses the language of soul sleep in his earliest epistles (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:35-55).  But as Paul receives more revelation, he learns that we survive death, fully conscious in a spiritual body.  In his later epistles like 2 Corinthians and Philippians, he relishes the prospect of being in heaven with Christ immediately after death.  I will quote just two sample texts from the New Living Translation: 

"For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down--when we die and leave these bodies--we will have a home in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God Himself and not by human hands.  We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long for the day when we will put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.  For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies.  Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and have no bodies at all.  We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life...Yes, we are always confident, AND WE WOULD RATHER BE AWAY FROM THESE BODIES, FOR THEN WE WILL BE AT HOME WITH THE LORD (2 Corinthians 5:1-4, 6)."

"For me, living is for Christ, and dying is even better.  Yet if I live, that means fruitful service for Christ.  I really don't know which is better.  I'm torn between two desires: Sometimes I want to live, and sometimes I long to go and be with Christ.  THAT WOULD BE FAR BETTER FOR ME, but it is better for you that I live (Philippians 1:21-23)."

This new perspective brings Paul's teaching in line with Jesus' teaching in Luke 23:42-43 and elsewhere:

"Then he [the dying thief on the adjacent cross] said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom.'  Jesus replied, `TODAY you will be with me in Paradise (Lk 23:42-43).'"

Don

P.S.  Quantum Soul, for 12 years I was a college Theology professor, but now i'm a United Methodist pastor.  I'd advise you to read through my Swedenborg thread for amazing evidence of survival from the onset of death.

Terethian,
"We all try to ignore it, to pretend it doesn't exist. [...] The human mind does not seem to be capable of accepting this. It seems to me that even those that THINK they accept death in reality are only pretending, tricking they're own mind. Fools."

We all, really? The 'fools' ending seem to indicate jealousy. The out of body experiences were the easy part in dealing with this huge fear, and I've earned every ounce of dissipation of it. In my younger years I found out that at some point the body can take full control for a while to ensure survival, and I'm fine with that. The body can throw the hands up and dance like a headless chicken when the time comes to stop animating. Also wouldn't mind if at the same time the vocal chords started doing tribal chants high-pitched-bee-gees-stayin'-alive style. Bottom line, I'm not the body in the same way electricity isn't a waffle iron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCAjmuA1HDk

Is this a reply to me?

I believe the bible was written by man.

man writing the bible = I don't believe that crap.

Oh you can say it was "inspired" by God as much as you want....

I am far more accepting of we ourselves are all God way before accepting a single omnipotent force. No offense really intended to those that believe in this God / devil combination. If that works for you and get's you through life then it doesn't matter whether it is true or not....to you. It matters to me though. Faith is not an option. Truth, proven scientific facts are all that I can trust.

A medium told me two things she couldn't possibly know and the possibility that they were guesses is very rare. Still....

The information given to me was within my own mind. Perhaps sucked from my own mind. - I hope this is not true.

Perhaps we are all just hard drives and when we die the data is still there, stored on the hard drive even though it has no power and mediums can connect to this powerless thought. My what a horrible thought. I do hope this is not true.

Perhaps the medium did contact her. She would have done anything to contact me. She wants to help me, I know she does. She wants me to live my life. Well, At this point I cannot really live and enjoy my life without more information. I need the deceased to confirm that everything where SHE exists is ok. I need to know if she could contact the pets. I need to know If I can. You don't understand how badly I need this information. I cannot blindly accept anything. I need my mother.

To be honest it's very unlikely that at least a part of most of us is not scared at the prospect of death.

To speak for myself - i've had meditative experience that suggests that what watches through 'me' is not of my body, or even individual, and is infinitely loving. It's hugely re-assuring. On the other hand there's an everyday part of me that most certainly is despite this deep knowing to say the least 'nervous'. 

Viewed metaphysically that's pretty inevitable unless you are fully realised/have fully transcended identification with body and individuality as 'self'. Even if you have i think i've quoted before the famous Zen master who when asked what death was like said (approximately) 'better go ask a dead guy'.

To build on this. The words of the Bible (and not everybody would accept it as literal truth anyway) are very often open to very different and even multiple level interpretations.

The one  the church has publicly taught - which has very often suited its own view and ends - can be said  at best to be simplistic.

'Christ' is to many an aspect of pure loving conciousness or mind that incarnated in the purest of forms as a great teacher on earth. That's not to say it was the only time, or that it's not around all the time to varying degrees - it's inherent in all of us, but is only manifested inasmuch as we have awakened to love.

Christ's 'return' can be read much less literally than the church tended to do - as the point when all beings in this reality as a collective whole have returned to the state of pure loving Christ consciousness that prevailed prior to our separation from God.

Viewed from this perspective the ego or fear inspired but mistaken belief system that gives rise to the perception of a 'self' existing in this reality is unreal, and cannot survive.

Even viewed from the perspective of self it seems not to survive death (otherwise lots would surely be reborn with the same personalities), and it can't survive the return to Christ consciousness because there is no place for a fear inspired belief system in the Christ consciousness.

In more finite terms Buddhism teaches that in the afterlife we separate from the ego/personality, most of which is destroyed - what continues and is reborn seems to be some sort of archetype/set of tendencies.

So maybe there's an alternative 'view' (perception of the nature of things) that at least allows us to see that what we deep down know and feel is very probably true.

On the other hand if you fervently believe that existence is based solely on the body and thinking mind there's maybe a lot less that's encouraging about the prospect of survival around.

How can the typical person be anything but somewhat nervous of such wholesale change and loss of selfhood?  The best that's available to us is the deeply felt 'knowing' that strengthens with spiritual work and experience, but in the end we're left with little option but to trust that all will be well.

To joke a little. I guess even if we are in our beliefs led astray by 'demons' (and i'm quite sure that most of what we theorise involves plenty of wishful thinking and hoping that 'self' survives) at least the non-physical existence of demons or other less realised entities suggests at least that there are at least ways of existing beyond the body....