DocM,
"What cometh before a fall?  Oh yeah, that."

Summer comes before fall. Guilt overload can also precede a fall - from trusting ones own spiritual judgement - to fall back into letting the external be the guide. One may of course also be wrong, both fall and fail, but can at least be PROUD that one is becoming responsible for ones self.

Making a decision, not because it's popular, or unpopular, but because that's what you want to do. Worth noting that a decision like this doesn't involve walking over dead vessels to get what you want. One makes a dish, decides if the taste is right, refine it, or perhaps make a new one, while 10 other chefs want one to either put in or leave out ingredients, maybe saying one is proud for not falling into compliance with their demands.

DocM,
"Acknowledgements, even apologies have their place in this complex interaction on forums."

A fair overview. Going beyond the protective barrier of ego, reviewing, if one doesn't think nor feel an apology is applicable, making an apology because of an expectation or demand is as regressive or status quo like as never ever making an apology - even if one think that's really the right move.

Well, I'm not gonna do salvia, and making no excuses about it. Anyway, here's a quick beginners guide to writing letters to congress while smoking salvia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPfnJVEr8E

Terethian

How many times have you smoked Salvia?  I was hoping maybe you could post some of your more memorable experiences with it.

By the way, I figure that what you say about Salvia is probably based on your personal experience, such as "good trips are always alone", and "smoking Salvia with a sitter sucks."  However, the way you word it makes it seem like these are definite facts which apply to everyone, when in reality this is not the case.  Having a sitter is one of the precautions which I recommend.  I have had a sitter every time I've used Salvia, and each experience was amazing.  I'm not going to say that smoking Salvia with a sitter will produce an amazing trip, however, for there are many other factors involved which influence the experience.

Kathy's early responses in this thread are full of wisdom.  It is not that hallucinogens are not possible tools on a spiritual quest.  The issue is; what have they taught you, with respect to expressing love?  Many many sources speak of true spiritual growth manifest as expressing more love; love of other people (one's neighbor) and love of God. 

If the hallucinogen shows you that you are more than your physical body - ok - that is a step we all should aspire toward.  If it allows you to have an OOB experience, again, that's a nice beginning, but has nothing to do with love.  The seemingly mundane salvia-free world is full of valid human interactions that directly place us on a road toward an enhanced love, and therefore - spirituality. 

There is a certain self-centeredness in exploring psycho-active substances, that doesn't usually connect with love in more than a nonspecific  way.  A merging with objects and the universe is definitely meaningful.  But love needs to be expressed and manifest with intent and purpose in order to truly be realized.

Can directed psychedelics work with meditation, and common directed thought, toward a more enlightened spiritual end?  My answer is a qualified "yes," but..........

if a hallucinogen disorients us so as to be unable to apply intent in our ends and expressing more love in the process, then it is of passing interest.  The youtube videos of Salvia trips show within seconds to 2 minutes, a complete disorientation when large concentrations of Salvia are smoked and inhaled.  Most posters of these videos are unable to speak, hold a conversation or think in any rational way during those few minutes.  The visions they may have could have value in showing themselves and others that we are more than our physical bodies but there is a bigger factor - love. 

Kathy's point about person to person interactions and, at a more fundamental level, love, are something to really consider when evaluating these "tools" of perception.


Matthew

Yes Matthew, you certainly drew a line. But this is dependant on what worth we attribute to the common expressions of physical life. It's quite clear, those (salvia-youtube) people phase out and cannot connect with "sober" people in the usual way anymore. And that's the point: Maybe they don't care. And maybe that's allright.

   To express PUL is a difficult thing. I once, after a meditation (no drugs), was so full of it, and could sort of radiate it, but I guess from the other's perspective I appeared as a freak. Maybe a somewhat glowing, comforting freak, but still a freak. And this social status is quite similar to a druggie on the love trip.

Sometimes I think for expressing and receiving PUL a psychedelic drug state is far more capable than our common sober state. I wish it was different, but I just see what is.

Spooky

This is what happens when people with experience riding ponies at birthday parties get on a racehorse.

Without the inner work, it won't matter what you take. If the train does not stop for you, it is not your train.

I could not agree more:


Past all the "Wow, man" stuff, what has it REALLY taught you about LOVE?

Thomas

Volu

It's funny.. this morning I was thinking the very same thing.

One interesting thing which I find is that salvia reminds me of something. Even the first time I did it, I can recall the strange and weird sensations in my mind as being oddly familiar, like this is something special, something more inside of me which I was returning to. A different way of thought or more connected with certain thoughts. It's hard to explain. You wouldn't think a person could receive a familiar feeling from something they have never done before!