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Clearing Technology or Life is a School? (Read 10338 times)
recoverer
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #15 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 1:08pm
 
If a person has an open mind, he will seriously consider what former Scientology members have to say. He could visit a site such as Rick Ross' site to find out.

To suggest that all former Scientology members are simply malcontents that left Scientology because of their own weaknesses, is a highly biased way of thinking and quite defensive.

How can a person possibly question what a system of thought such as Scientology is about, if he does back flips to defend it?

It is odd that Scientologists speak of being cleared, when they can't even question the ideas they picked up after joining Scientology.

Neil:

If you're really serious about letting go of limiting ideas, then you'll be willing to question all ideas including your ideas about Scientology. The manner in which you quickly dismiss anybody who has something discerning to say about Scientology, is not an indication of a mind that is willing to question and let go. The manner in which you defend Scientology isn't any different than the manner in which other cult members defend their cults.

Is it a matter of some people being opposed to Scientology without having a good reason, or is it a matter of some people knowing what's true and being compassionate enough to let other people know what they have found out?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_sitesearch=rickross.com&safe=off&q=Sciento...,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Scientology%22+%22cult%22&btnG=...





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vajra
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2009 at 9:34pm
 
I can't comment on scientology with any degree of worthwhile knowledge, and it's many years since i read L. Ron's books.

That said it describes as best i can recall a process of clearing the mind that seems in some ways analogous to the process of self enquiry  (the shedding of negative beliefs) that is in effect the basis of most  respected paths.

That said it seems fairly clear that the organisation was hijacked by people of a highly self interested and worldly nature who seem (at least around here anyway) to have used it as a vehicle to separate vulnerable people from their money and property, and to get some of them to work its agenda.

There seems to me to be no significant spiritual tradition that hasn't suffered at some stage in this way - been hijacked to serve selfish interests. That said the problem seems to have almost 100% taken over Scientology.

I dropped into a local branch once back at the start of my explorings, but felt i had to leave mid session as it was so blatantly seeking to 'stroke' whatever victim mentality they hoped i might have had.

What i can't rule out (but can't either confirm or even offer a positive view on) is whether or not there was originally a valid body of teaching at the core of the organisation. From the little i remember I'd be very cautious that the teaching didn't leave much of a role for Grace, or Spirit  - it seemed qualitatively more of a psychoanalytical than a spiritual process.

I think Neil you're basically saying that there wasa valid path buried in there somewhere....
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Neil Gordon
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #17 - Aug 26th, 2009 at 12:45am
 
Quote:
I think Neil you're basically saying that there wasa valid path buried in there somewhere....


EXACTLY... and its a spiritual path.


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Neil Gordon
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #18 - Aug 26th, 2009 at 12:52am
 
So after having drummed up some interest and controversy about the subject, my question remains:

Are we "decaying" into a state of spiritual death? (-400 on Filbert's tone scale)

Certainly we can see more than enough evidence of humans who have decayed on this planet. Question is, did we (as spirits) invent a way to decay as well? And landed up caught in our own trap, meant for others?

I actually asked this question because I wanted to see if anyone could have an answer (with some technical backup) because frankly the whole issue is disturbing.

However I see more evidence for the theory that Theta - is Mest (old committed spirit) than I see for the other case (Spirit cannot by definition decay.)

If Theta does decay into Mest, then I have done my duty in bringing this to your attention.

It doesn't mean I am going to stop with the OBE or Bruce Moen's methods, since I see these as progress on the road to escaping the trap.

Sincerely,

Neil
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Neil Gordon
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #19 - Aug 26th, 2009 at 11:07am
 
Hi Balance

Some good points you raise.

I actually think raising this question here was an exercise in futility:

1) Its the same as asking if evil exists or not, and if we go to hell. Lots of different folk will have different opinions.
2) Its a question which isn't really aligned with this group (no disrespect intended). Its like asking if Hell really exists in a Christian group.

There is only Knowing (in instances like this). I wish to Know. That is my only goal in life.

We can only Know the answer for ourselves, others cannot tell us of their Knowing, and we believe them. We have to get our own Knowing.

Amen.
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Lights of Love
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #20 - Aug 26th, 2009 at 11:21am
 
Quote:
We can only Know the answer for ourselves, others cannot tell us of their Knowing, and we believe them. We have to get our own Knowing.


Hi Neil,

I think this is absolutely true. Do your own exploring with a mind skeptical enough to not fall into a belief trap, yet open enough to allow growth. If something sounds like it might offer learning opportunities, by all means, explore the possibilities. The proof is in tasting the pudding. Believe nothing... to know is to experience.

Kathy
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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.
 
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vajra
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #21 - Aug 26th, 2009 at 12:25pm
 
I guess Neil that the question of whether or not there is the possibility of transcending this reality vs. being sucked ever deeper into it is one of the great unanswerables - at least for somebody in my situation anyway.

That's not to say it's not a worthwhile topic to explore.

I set out a view describing the opposing motivations most of us experience - which broadly is the teaching of most of of the spiritual traditions. They generally are very definite about not just the possibility of, but the eventual certainty of transcendence.

This on the basis that most of the mind of each of us never bought into this reality in the first place, and remains with God. i.e. the game is not to navigate our 'self' back to God, it's rather for the part of mind that believes its stuck here (and 'here' is constructed in such a way as to make this awakening pretty difficult) to simply drop its belief in this reality, and hence awaken to its true nature which in essence ends any apparent separation from God and its greater self.

My sense though is that (even if we can move beyond views informed by wishful thinking) how the individual sees it depends on their view. (how you perceive existence) This is why questions like you pose will always draw widely varying answers.

This because while the same traditions mentioned above tend to suggest that the part of mind that believes in relative existence always (eventually  awakens, drops its limiting beliefs and returns to unity and God (is immortal), that its creations (the body, and the elements that seemingly make up this (un)reality and that of the afterlife) are unreal and hence must decay.

If you view yourself as an individual self that is a body controlled by a thinking mind based in a brain on top coping with an objectively existing external reality (whether physical, or in the less physical but still relative context of the afterlife) - then as manifestations of this limited and separated aspect of mind then (by this logic) we are all doomed to death and decay.

What's more if our behaviour is truly driven by this 'selfish' view rather than the highest one we will inevitably re-incarnate at successively lower levels until something causes the whole 'unreality' to 'poof' out of existence.

You can of course present this sort of argument for survival of one part, and the decay of the rest in context of the body and soul view too.

Whatever the reality my personal experience suggests there is considerable truth in the teaching of the spiritual traditions - in that they certainly can produce change that improves our lot, and move us away from fretting about trying to survive and 'get ahead' in conventional terms.

What's more it's fairly clear from observing those that buy into the other path that 'getting ahead' is no formula for happiness, the opposite in fact....

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Pat E.
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #22 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 1:26am
 
Having cycled through or tasted various traditions, I don't know if we in this physical incarnation can ever really "know" the entire picture.  I left Christianity in my teens, read the first Monroe book, the Seth books, Cayce, etc. in my 20s and 30s, including some time with the Rosicrucian teachings.  Eventually found Buddhism through Pema Chodron and now have discovered Monroe and Moen who seem to offer possible ways to come to some personal "knowing".  Reggie Ray's "Indestructible Truth" has a fascinating summary of classic Buddhist cosmology that involves universes beyond imagining with eons of rebirths that may occur in any of the many universes until one achieves enlightenment and moves on.  I've never gotten clear on just what that place after enlightenment is like since it has always struck me as rather monotonal and ultimately boring, no matter how blissful.  But the true Buddhist takes Bodhisattva vows which obligate one, even having achieved enlightenment, to hang around here working for the benefit of others until every last sentient being has achieved enlightenment.  And are there ever some hard cases out there!
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vajra
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #23 - Aug 27th, 2009 at 7:23am
 
Hi Pat. Some references there that very much parallel my own reading and background. 'Indestructible Truth' is a beautifully written summary of Mahayana Buddhist teaching, path and 'view'. His  partner volume 'Secret of the Vajra World' is another - it as i'm sure you know deals with the Vajrayana or esoteric path in Tibetan Buddhism.

On the 'boring part'. The falling away of attachment to worldly matters sounds that way to the thinking mind anyway, in that there's very little to get our intellectual and conceptual teeth into. As is often written about though if one can bridge the gap to starting to realise that view those pleasures increasingly begin to be replaced by rather joyful feelings as the meditative experience starts to suffuse normal life....

Daniel Goleman (he's the guy who wrote on Emotional Intelligence, his background is Buddhist, and he drew heavily on it for the view in the book) in one of his early books 'Meditative Mind' wrote on what is effectively this progression in very readable terms: http://www.amazon.com/Meditative-Mind-Daniel-Goleman/dp/0874778336/ref=sr_1_7?ie...

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Pat E.
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #24 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 1:16am
 
Thanks, Vajra.  I haven't yet read Secrets of the Vajra World, though I'm familiar with it.

I will definitely look into Goleman's book as well.

So much to wrestle with.  I have found it fascinating to see the overlaps of the Buddhist teachings I've read or heard and much of what I've more recently read in Monroe's and Moen's books.  I've always thought the whole thing is like a huge mountain with many paths (i.e. religious, spiritual, expansion of consciousness, etc.) to the top.  Or the other analogy I like is the blind men encountering the elephant, one the tail, one the trunk, one the ear, one the tusk, etc. with each thinking they have the whole truth about the elephant in their hands.
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Neil Gordon
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #25 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 1:28am
 
DocM wrote on Aug 25th, 2009 at 9:08am:
There are some far out assertions, like a reprocessing center for souls on Venus (why would a nonphysical soul need to be reprocessed on another planet in the physical?). 


Yes, I agree, that is a rather silly statement.

Pilot (Ken Ogger) had a much more practical view. He perceived Earth as being in a pocket universe contained in a 4D universe.  Earth is managed from the 4D.

Here is an excerpt from Super Scio:

Quote:
Advanced technology allows the manipulation of multiple three dimensional spaces in a four dimensional framework. The entire solar system (out to about 1.3 light-years) is handled in this way (there is a set of 12 stations, sort of like the zodiac, surrounding the solar system at that distance).

The entire structure (this solar system) has been copied sideways in a 4th dimensional direction to form a "heavenly plane" on one side of us and a "hell plane" on the other. These are not very thick in a 4D sense and therefore are a bit ethereal giving them a bit of an "astral" (spirit-like) quality. They are like positive and negative plates between which our reality is suspended. Earth as we know it is very thick (thousands of layers) along the 4D axis with a dead spot in the center that acts like a mirror. What we normally see is in this mirror which is reflecting the thousands of "real" copies to either side. One of the reasons you can't grab the things you see with your thoughts is that there really is nothing where you are looking. You have to reach in funny directions to grab an object with your mind and move it around.


More (for interest's sake): ...

Quote:
With the prisoners so horribly conditioned and brainwiped between lives, there is not much danger of a prison revolt. But there is also the possibility that the prison might collapse. If anything were to destroy the Earth, they would suddenly have far too many people on their hands and at least some would escape out into the galaxy at large. So they must protect the world from destruction. And yet they must leave us with advanced scientific knowledge to support the ever growing numbers of prisoners. They encouraged a scientific revolution so that the population could expand and now they have the constant difficulty of our blowing ourselves up and destroying the world in various ways.

But there is a technical solution to this given the ability to manipulate 3 dimensional spaces in 4 dimensions. You can store copies of the 3D space sideways along the 4th axis. Imagine that we are living on a flat sheet of paper. The paper changes constantly, but occasionally someone makes a xerox copy of the page. If the paper ever catches fire and burns up, they pull the last xerox out of the file and everything goes on from there. You will see the same thing if you play a computer video game that you can save and restore. If the game goes very badly, you can always go back to a previous copy. If you try this, you will also notice that after restoring an earlier copy of the game, you have some knowledge of the "future" even though things will go slightly differently. This is the real explanation of "deja vu" (remembering the future when it happens again).

One recent example was in 1963 when president Richard M. Nixon launched a nuclear war that destroyed the planet. As we all began dying in droves, the prison machinery was used to restore a copy of the Earth taken in 1957. We were all conditioned to go back to what we were doing in 1957 and life picks up with a second pass through 1957 to 1963. Of course they intervene slightly and Kennedy is elected by the barest margin. Since he begins introducing major changes and because everyone unconsciously expects something bad to happen in 1963 anyway, he is assassinated and things begin to settle back down to their normal course. Nixon even gets to be president later with less ill effects.

These "backup" copies of the earth appear to be taken every 5 years in February of the years ending in either a 2 or a 7 (i.e.. 1952, 1957, 1962, etc.).
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vajra
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #26 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 9:17am
 
I find what you have just noted hugely reassuring P  - that so many traditions can be seen all to teach basically the same view and path. Provided that is we don't miss the wood for the tress by getting hung up on terminology.

The risk is always that we so easily get sucked into intellectually based theorising. (there's all sorts of ego reasons why this is the case) It's important up to a point to sort a view (in that wrong view inevitably leads to wrong actions), but beyond a certain point it just becomes speculative theorising that we get interested in for the wrong (ego inspired) reasons.

My personal thought is that one major risk this presents is in how we may relate to whatever esoteric experience we have - dreams, guidance, visits to afterlife locations, whatever.

The chances are (to my mind anyway) that these are not objectively existing realities - rather that they are often symbolic, or at least 'seeing' of some sort manifested in terms of our personal library of concepts and images.

Rigid beliefs (whether personal, or imposed by family, society, religious dogma, whatever) are also a blocker - in that it's clear that our view should be considered but provisional, and should evolve with increasing awareness, intuition and insight.

Buddhist teaching as you probably know is very definite that to attach much importance or to become attached to this sort of debate or experience as an end in itself inevitably leads to distraction from the real task. i.e. the path of self work to enable transcendence of this reality, or of samsara.

Taken at the broad level - that we are trapped in this seeming reality  - those quotes of yours describe something similar Neil. You could say that conceiving the earth and this universe as a dimensional prison is just as valid/accurate as the language used by other traditions.

In that all i suspect in the end are only  symbolic, and probably equally approximate. The trick is to keep our eye on the moon, and to not get sucked into placing  all of our focus on the pointing finger. Especially not to get attached and inclined to defend our view as to the nature of the finger...
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Neil Gordon
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #27 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 10:18am
 
Quote:
I find what you have just noted hugely reassuring P  - that so many traditions can be seen all to teach basically the same view and path. Provided that is we don't miss the wood for the tress by getting hung up on terminology.


Yes I see your point (or rather, I am trying to see the Moon, and not your pointing finger Smiley )
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vajra
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Re: Clearing Technology or Life is a School?
Reply #28 - Aug 28th, 2009 at 1:45pm
 
Smiley Wink
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