Copyrighted Logo

css menu by Css3Menu.com


 

Bruce's 5th book, a Home Study Course, is now available.
Books & Tapes by Bruce Moen
    Bruce's Blog now at http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/blog....

  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead (Read 5122 times)
DocM
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168
Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Jun 21st, 2009 at 11:38pm
 
The Bardo Thodol (translated loosely as the liberation upon hearing while on the plane of death), is, in its most basic form, a guide to be read to people as they are dying and after they die.  It is referred to as the Tibetan Book of the Dead in Western culture.  It is believed to have been written in the 8th century by an enlightened buddhist.  It was discovered centuries later.  Much like in Bruce Moen's description of retrievals, the idea behind this is that the recently deceased can and do hear the words/thoughts of those still living.  

A "bardo" is a state of consciousness.  Essentially, Tibetan buddhism defines three common bardo states (though many more could be concerived).  They are: consciousness during waking life, consciousness during dreams, and consciousness during meditation.

In dying, three additional Bardos are encountered; the consciousness associated with the moment of death, consciousness associated with reality, and consciousness associated with rebirth.  

Interestingly enough, in this text, the Bardo or state of consciousness at the moment of death is the easiest place for a person to achieve enlightenment or nirvana.  According to Tibetan buddhist tradition, at the moment of death, we are all put into a moment where we experience a clear cut light of reality.  Those who harm others and have created bad consciousness may only experience this stage for a short time (likened to that of snapping one's fingers) prior to the next stage.  For most people, however this stage lasts several days.  If this state is recognized, a person continues to dwell in the state of pure reality  - the highest level of consciousness one can achieve.

One continues to move on to other stage or Bardos if one does not recognize one's death and the notion that the fear experienced in the afterlife comes about by creations of one's own mind.  There are many different points at which a person can free themselves from the bardo progression and the need for rebirth by recognizing the process of one's own death and applying one's intent to leave the cycle.

It is quite interesting that the person's friends and realtives are supposed to read the Bardo Thodol text to the person as they lie dying and then after they have died, to prevent the deceased from being distracted by the awe of the experience of death, and karmic illusions which distract a person from their true nature.  By applying rationality and remembering prior training, a person may focus and will himself to be removed from the cycle of birth and death.

There is no talk of vibrational level, or love here per se, as in New Age thought.  Rather, it is actually explicitly stated in the Bardo Thodol that a person of evil actions and intent may be instantly saved from this cycle of death and rebirth by the hearing of the text read by a living person.  The text, apparently allows the disembodied person to focus his or her intent and find his/her own heaven.

In one sense, I find this text fascinating as a source from more than 1300 years ago which references retrieving people immediatley after death.  This signifies that someone else recognized the need for retrievals centuries ago before New Age thought emerged.

What I find troubling, however is the notion that life incarnate is somehow the worst fate of tragic punishment - i.e. to reincarnate -  essentially it happens to many who die if they do not apply intent in the Bardos of the afterlife.  In this book of the dead, they track the soul down the bardos to their next womb and recommend several techniques of "closing the door to the womb," so as not to be incarnated into physical reality again.

All this somehow implies that life on earth is a mistake.  Man placing his consciousness willingly into these bodies, separating ourselves from the divine and then suffering through life.  But what of life's joys?  The triumphs while we are alive?  The love or grace people find while in the physical world?  Is it better somehow, to exist in a heaven, or a spirit bardo and express love, than to do it in the planet earth as an incarnated being?

These are questions that come up after reading the Tibetan Book of the dead.  How much of the text comes from experiences during meditation, and how much incorporated religious doctrine or teachings to make a cosmology match an afterlife experience, I don't know.  

But it is a fascinating read.   For those of you interested, there is a free E-book on it at:  http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/


Matthew
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Cricket
Senior Member
****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 351
Gender: female
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #1 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 9:00am
 
What I find troubling, however is the notion that life incarnate is somehow the worst fate of tragic punishment

It helps to recall that the Book of the Dead was written in what, 710 CE?  Life was brutal, short, and painful even for the luckiest back then.  Looking through human eyes, I can easily see how not coming back was the better part of valor.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Rondele
Ex Member


Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #2 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 12:39pm
 
Doc-

Cricket made one of the points I was going to make.  When life is brutal, it's no wonder that the prospect of being born again was not especially appealing.

In one sense, I find this text fascinating as a source from more than 1300 years ago which references retrieving people immediatley after death.  This signifies that someone else recognized the need for retrievals centuries ago before New Age thought emerged.

Generally speaking, the "new age" movement is traced to the late 60s and after.  However, the book I frequently cite, Lighted Passage, was written in the 1940s and describes what we consider to be retrievals.

It specifically mentions how the vibrations of the newly deceased are much more similar to physically alive humans than to the helpers on the other side.

The author points out that the similarity of the "frequencies" is why it's so important for humans to be engaged in the retrieval effort, since we can get the deceased's attention more easily than can helpers.

I also think the term retrieval is misleading.  The author of Lighted Passage uses the term rescue. We really aren't retrieving when we guide a deceased person to the light or to a helper.  Retrieving means bringing back, not guiding forward.  

And even around the turn of the last century (and probably before), there were what was called rescue circles, essentially groups of people who would get together for the express purpose of helping newly deceased find their way.

In short, there really is nothing new under the sun.

R

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
DocM
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #3 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 1:54pm
 
Yes,

That these practices of guiding the dead were done for centuries or millenia is clear.  It is somewhat ironic that we the incarnate, with our perceptions blocked and narrowed, were the ones writing the authoratative tomes like the Tibetan Book of the Dead to guide the deceased. 

However, it appears that when we die, the spirit may be prone to a kind of "shock and awe" that distracts us.  In this way, perhaps, C1/the physical world, offers rationality in what is a most irrational appearing situation (being a spirit after leaving one's earthly body).

The problem is, while one can read the text and address the deceased, we don't really know what their response is or if we are even getting through. 

M
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
betson
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 3445
SE USA
Gender: female
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #4 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 2:53pm
 
Hi

National Geographic or a related source has a film of a Tibetan man dying and receiving the Book of the Dead readings. I couldn't tell how much he was conscious of.  I expect that our Hostice programs have methods that are more appropriate for people now.

We already sense that we cross over more quickly. Perhaps our bodies are less resistant to death due to healthier foods, more comfortable homes etc --(?). Cricket already said that and I agree.

I think we can take the basic principles as true--different stages of consciousness seems a good way of explaining the focus levels; but how much of the Tibetan way we can borrow I'm not sure.

Bets
Back to top
 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare
 
IP Logged
 
Alan McDougall
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 3:12pm
 
DocM wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 1:54pm:
Yes,

That these practices of guiding the dead were done for centuries or millenia is clear.  It is somewhat ironic that we the incarnate, with our perceptions blocked and narrowed, were the ones writing the authoratative tomes like the Tibetan Book of the Dead to guide the deceased.  

However, it appears that when we die, the spirit may be prone to a kind of "shock and awe" that distracts us.  In this way, perhaps, C1/the physical world, offers rationality in what is a most irrational appearing situation (being a spirit after leaving one's earthly body).

The problem is, while one can read the text and address the deceased, we don't really know what their response is or if we are even getting through.  

M



What I don't like Buddhism it that their aim is too lose self and merge into the cosmos.


Alan
Back to top
 

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall
WWW <a href= <a href=  
IP Logged
 
moonsandjunes
Ex Member


Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 7:41pm
 
Nice site.

Nothing wrong with the physical world. It is amazingly beautiful. But there is a lot of illness and strife here on this planet. It is not a completely pleasant place, by even the most generous judgement. We can learn so much here, and experience life in 'time' differently than in a 'faster vibrating' area, as some like to call other dimensions.

There is something to be said for suffering, in that it teaches us how beautiful it is not to suffer. Perhaps that is the purpose of suffering, after all is said and done.

Who knows?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
DocM
Super Member
*****
Offline


Afterlife Knowledge Member

Posts: 2168
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #7 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 9:22pm
 
Hi Moons,

The buddhist believes that suffering comes from the creation of our own minds.  That our natural state is a conscious unity with God, and that somehow, we separate ourselves from the divine state, and encase ourselves in what we believe are individual physical bodies.  Suffering, then comes from our mistaken separation from God and the universe, and our trying to hold onto things in the physicdal world, which are, by their very nature in constant flux and changing.  Attachment to things in the physical world are seen as the main source of all suffering. 

I, for one see no need for suffering in order to find spiritual progression.  I do think that the polar opposite states of joy and suffering help to define each other - if the person feels he/she needs that definition.  I see no problem, however in living in joy, and minimizing suffering.  For the buddhist, this may involve minimizing attachment to material things.  For the Westerners (myself included), we sometimes wonder how we can stay a loving caring individual if we give up attachments to things in C1.

Actually, I believe it is quite achieveable, and that the idea that buddhism is nihilism (a winking out of our individuality on merging with God) is far far from what buddhists believe.  You see, one can maintain one's love for friends, family, and life, and yet realize that it is all a game/illusion/maya.  That we are in a realm of false separation, and that in the end, we are part of something much greater. 


Matthew
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pat E.
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 207
Northern California
Gender: female
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #8 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 1:45am
 
Of course, there have been many modern translations of, and books about, The Tibetan Book of the Dead.  I have a few, although I've only completely read one.

I am in the midst of reading, and participating in a book class about, a recent book by a Tibetan teacher, Ponlop Rinpoche,  called Mind Beyond Death.  It discusses in a very accessible way, the six bardos that Matthew describes.  I have been impressed by the overlap of the concepts expressed there with what Bruce Moen has described in his books.  Different terminology and focus, of course, but the views are not that hard to reconcile in large part.  I'm just into the chapter on the bardo of dying, so I haven't yet read about the post-dying bardos.  But the chapter on the bardo of dreams is written with  instructions on how to have lucid dreams, essentially.  Great stuff.

Part of the buddhist view (or at least in my understanding of it) is that even the physical world is not nearly so solid and fixed as we try to make it.  Much of our suffering arises from trying to hold onto a "solid" reality that isn't solid at all, whether from a purely physical, molecular level or any other level.

Forty-nine days after my daughter's death in October, the buddhist meditation center I belong to did a traditional Buddhist 49-Day Ceremony for her that included extremely vivid, powerful chants requesting that the Protectors (Helpers?) guide her through the bardos after death to her next birth.  I told a bit about this on the Retrievals Forum in an exchange that Bets and I had around Bets' retrieval of my daughter.  While my daughter wasn't a Buddhist and expressed little interest in my practice, after her death I discovered a piece of her artwork that she left in her studio with a verse on it that was right out of the Tibetan Book  of the Dead.  The universe is certainly an amazing place!

Pat
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Heimdall
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 34
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 7:06am
 
I wonder why none of you thinks of Resurrection? Not Physical Life, but death is a mistake. Not just a mistake - it's pathology of human consciousness. A disease. Having been Created In The Shape And Image Of God, Human Is Naturally Physically Immortal. If the enemies of Mankind force the illusion of collective consciousness (fake reality), that someone's body dies, than it's necessary to bring the situation to the NORM. To Re-Manifest in this reality or to Resurrect. Read Grigory Grabovoy.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Alan McDougall
Super Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2104
South Africa
Gender: male
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #10 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 7:38am
 
Heimdall wrote on Jun 28th, 2009 at 7:06am:
I wonder why none of you thinks of Resurrection? Not Physical Life, but death is a mistake. Not just a mistake - it's pathology of human consciousness. A disease. Having been Created In The Shape And Image Of God, Human Is Naturally Physically Immortal. If the enemies of Mankind force the illusion of collective consciousness (fake reality), that someone's body dies, than it's necessary to bring the situation to the NORM. To Re-Manifest in this reality or to Resurrect. Read Grigory Grabovoy.



Hello Grigory and welcome, what a refreshing post? yes I death is unnatural and not the will of god.

Genetics reveal that we have both a death gene and a life gene, who and why was this gene included into our genetics code is a mystery

Our material bodies could last forever, but I think we would eventually want to move into higher more advanced forms of living if this were the case

Something went very wrong in the primordial past and the Garden of Eden story captures that as a mythical story containing deep and profound truths

I am the resurrection and the life no man comes to the Father but by me (I WILL GET FLACK FOR THAT STATEMENT BUT SO BE IT)


Regards

Alan



Back to top
 

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall
WWW <a href= <a href=  
IP Logged
 
moonsandjunes
Ex Member


Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #11 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 8:20am
 
What an interesting thought -- death as a 'mistake'. I'm sure that will generate some discussion here.

I admit that this has made me pause for thought today. For, to me, death seems natural, in some ways. I guess I had gotten to the point where the body seems unnecessary, in the long run.

I see spiritual progress, however, as a journey into wholeness, and wholeness is not something I can define for another person.

Perhaps immortality and eternal youth is a valid choice. I do believe in personal transformation, in a big way.

I will be interested to hear more, from anyone who can respond with clarity to the assertion that the human in its human body 'should' be immortal.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Heimdall
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 34
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #12 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 8:43am
 
Thanks for understanding. Have you heard about the pure Holocaust, being planned by the civilization of Pleyades for Mankind and Orion in 2012-th? The teachings developing love, interest and tolerance to death help these cosmic nazies to prepare the victims for mass extermination. Exactly like the nazi did in concentration camps. "It's just a shower, desinfection." In fact these were gas cameras. As Mr. Moen describes "The Coordination Center" - I can guess they work for Pleyades. Masking under fake and stupid morality they just want to remove our race. They want our Planet - that's it. Orion fights back. The bravest and the most courageous of Humans will join. It will be the Apocaliptic clash, The Ragnarok. Then all will be Resurrected in Flesh. Some are being Resurrected already now. That's why at present time there are many reborn Atlanteans, who spread the Atlantean-Orionic Wisdom. One of them is Grigory Grabovoy, presently a political prisoner in Russia.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Heimdall
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 34
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #13 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 6:30pm
 
Remember yourself when you were children. You all did believe you would live Forever, and all, who were close and near to you, too. Did you have any doubt about that? Maybe you thought death was necessary? A Child has most clear perception, he lives by his heart. Christ said: " Be like children." Then the perception is being eventually spoiled by the society and such forces, as described in Bruce Moen's books. If it's not his artistic fantasy, of course. They remind Kastaneda's inorganics. If all, what he wrote, is truth, these structures have to be be destroyed. Only Human-Gods rule here, not extra-terrestial species. They all originate from the Tunnels of Set, you can read Kenneth Grant about them. These are anti-Worlds, Quabalistic Clipot, joined with the Tunnels. In terms of Christianity - Hell.
Come on, stand up from your knees!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Heimdall
New Member
*
Offline



Posts: 34
Re: Ancient Retrievals - The Tibetan Book of the dead
Reply #14 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 7:58pm
 
Grigory Grabovoy.

“Resurrection Of People And Eternal Life  - Since Now Is Our Reality!”.

Free download. English language.


http://uploading.com/files/F89Q0V7X/Resurrection_And_Eternal_Life.doc.html

Grigory Petrovich gave a public permission to distribute this Book for free. Because it’s the only way of Salvation and Liberation of Mankind, the only way to stop pain and suffering. The Book will impress you greatly even though you have read a lot of esoteric literature. It’s nothing to be even compared with.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2009 at 9:49pm by Heimdall »  
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print


This is a Peer Moderated Forum. You can report Posting Guideline violations.