<<There's nothing to be gained from interminable discussions in an attempt to in any finite way 'understand' the afterlife (and even 'afterlife is a questionable term), because it's by definition not capable of objective intellectual/conceptual understanding. Making an objective of this will bury us in babble forever.>>

Well said Vajra.  Even assuming there is an afterlife (whatever that term means), we end up spinning a circular path that invariably leads right back to the starting point.  !0 years from now, or a 100, if all of us lived that long and the board was still in existence, we wouldn't be any further along in our quest to pin down conclusively the mystery of what (if anything) lies beyond this life.

So maybe it's the journey, not the destination, that we should focus on.

I mean, there is so much in our own physical world that is wonderful and should be explored.  Great literature for example.  Uplifting poetry, art, music, etc.  And yet there are some folks who spend countless hours creating countless posts speculating about this or that aspect of a possible afterlife.  Strikes me as such a pointless waste of time.

I realize there are exceptions.  Some posts are truly thought provoking and well thought out. There ARE things that fall outside the physical senses and that hint at something beyond our physical world. There are credible people who have experienced incredible things.  I like to hear about those stories as much as anyone.

I just think it's a matter of balance.  And having our priorities in the right order.

Volu wrote on Apr 29^th, 2009 at 2:10pm:


Yes, the EGO can do more harm then good at times.
I see way too much ego behind many people's posts...even with good intentions.
I am not immune to this either but, I am aware of it...

 First off I would like to say that I like Vajra and respect what he has to say, even if I don't always agree with him (and he gently disagrees with me).  The reminder that intellectual discussion of issues having their limits and being a means rather than an end is a good one to keep in mind.  I would say though that having said that, logic and rational thought do have their place, not just for knocking down intellectual barriers to leading a spiritual life but also for building it up for those who are so inclined.  It's just that this kind of rational thought without it moving towards action (loving actions or intuitive interaction with something greater than ourselves) can be worthless or even harmful if it doesn't lead to better interaction.  The bible (which I know is not the best authority on this site) makes the case in the book of James when it says 'You believe in God?  Good!  But even the demons believe, and shudder.  Faith without works is dead'.
 Aside from the self refuting issue which will lead nowhere, the other issue is what I wanted to respond to: is it appropriate to be caught up in the enjoyment of doing good things to others?  I would say yes.  I would say this is a healthy and self sustaining form of doing good things toward others.  Not in the way that we feel better comparatively to others because these actions are done (God, thank you that I am not like other men), but because of the alleviation of suffering or bringing of good to others (God thank you for the opportunity to make that homeless guys' day better).
 However, some might argue that thinking about the betterment we bring to others at all is a type of selfishness, even if it is a good type of selfishness.  Some might say that we should not be in the equation at all, that good actions should be done without ego.  I am not sure (at least for myself) that this is self sustaining or possible over a long term for a spiritual life - I think most people in essence are hedonists, need some pleasure, and the important thing is to change motivations through good action and reflective thinking so that the things we take pleasure in are good actions towards others.

That's very true R. We almost all have a way to go it seems, and as a result we are to varying degrees prone to heading into more or less egotistical  territory without being aware of it.

The point is not that the intellect or intellectual discussion has no role to play - rational judgement aided by the sort of intuitive knowing that emerges over time is critical. Otherwise we are lost.

But there are many forms of ego driven relating to the intellect.

- Our society, pace of living and what has become the prevailing scientific and philosophical dogma tend to value linear intellectual (relative and hence limited) logic above all, and conditions us in all sorts of way to default to that mode of understanding.

- Most of us struggle to exist with internal silence - our rush to entertainment/diversion/ease of boredom is in essence an ego driven urge to fill this space.

- Many of us use our intellect as a tool to dominate others.

- Many of us become addicted to the process unravelling intellectual puzzles.

- Many of us have a tendency to see the speed of our mind accelerate without being aware of it. With this loss of mindfulness comes the risk of sliding into 'vibe changing' behaviours.

- We can as you say even turn apparently 'spiritual' or 'loving' behaviours into ever more subtle forms of self aggrandsement - spiritual materialism is the term i've heard used. We may even like to have others come on to us in this way, in that it's representative of what  traditional religion has often made seem normal.

One problem is that the intuitive knowing/feeling/seeing that leads to spiritual development is drowned out in the resulting clamour of excessive internal dialogue. Our task is to balance and integrate this knowing with the intellect - it's not a case of either/or.

So it's a very subtle balance, and one not easily understood - let alone a place often found in practice. Study and intellectual engagement have their place, but easily are hijacked by ego to take us into spaces like the above.

It makes perfect sense to seek to gain a broad understanding of our experience, in that it helps accelerates the process of growth. But it's unlikely that we're going to ever in our lifetime bottom an objective understanding that is better than a partially true one sided perception of what's going down. That's not to say it's impossible, but guess what - if we realise this it's unlikely to be an intellectual understanding and much more likely an intuitive knowing.

So it's better not to let this quest grow into a lifetime diversion up what's likely to be a dead end, or to become a quest, or lose its lightness and sense of fun and adventure. The compulsive urge to know and understand rather than to trust and go with the flow of life is yet another symptom of our basic problem.

As above i offer this only as my rather poorly put take on what are pretty standard spiritual teachings. I make no claim whatsoever to have somehow transcended this problem myself - this i recognise as fact. I have to apologise if i seemed to be targeting anybody, because that was not the intention - i haven't even been around enough in recent months enough to do more than get a flavour for what the vibe is.

Even more fundamentally we cannot be what we are not. Acting out some sort of pious 'spiritual' pattern of behaviour will get us no where either. There is however a lot to be gained if each of us can recognise that this is a valid risk, do our best to gain a feeling for where the balance lies and act accordingly - because if we're undisciplined and unthinking in our actions the effect on the vibe and degree of sublimated aggression and competition can escalate like of a spark coming in contact with an inflammable material.

This might mean stuff like: maintain a high degree of mindfulness of our behaviours, seek always to remain gentle - doing our best not to intensify the vibe. Be open to and responsive if others hint that maybe we could tone it down a little. And perhaps most of all try to raise issues out of our actual life situation and experiences rather than because they just happen to tickle our intellectual fancy.

From the other side its important that when one or more of us does get 'carried away'  (like me) that we observe, act precisely if required, and out of a wishing to do what's best for all do our best not to get sucked into reactive responses.

Please pardon me if i seem to be lecturing, or the pot is calling the kettle black. I just felt that as somebody that's not been posting lately i amounted to a relatively neutral observer.

I'll go away now.....